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6 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

Is the Wing-T effective beyond high school?

Criteria met. 

I don’t believe so. The offense is based primarily on misdirection. As players move up in levels, the defenses become more disciplined and rely more on reading keys and playing assignment football — all of which makes an offense based on misdirection less effective. The Wing-T is also not as conducive to throwing the ball as some other schemes. And offense today at the college and pro levels is all about throwing the ball.

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8 hours ago, DanteEstonia said:

Is the Wing-T effective beyond high school?

Criteria met. 

I don’t think running the wing T is the most effective even in high school.

 

you don’t need to run the ball to play the pass when you get into the analytics of it all….not the most timely of comparisons but it’s basically why the chiefs don’t run the ball much…..why check it down or run the ball against a defense looking to stop it?  Why not just take another shot at a big chunk play? 
 

the biggest benefit you get from running the ball is that the clock runs and it gets you closer to the end of the game…that’s about it…just milking the clock. 

To add…it’s not just the wing T….it’s just these run heavy offenses in general.  

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8 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Which team was running the Wing-T?

I'm not sure either team was running that as their base offense. I'm also not sure what that has to do with my comment on how the field remained in fair playing condition given the crazy weather throughout the game.

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1 minute ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

the biggest benefit you get from running the ball is that the clock runs and it gets you closer to the end of the game…that’s about it…just milking the clock. 

Wouldn't any coach worth his salt want to maximize his team's number and length of offensive possessions, and minimize his opponents?  Of course they do, which is why "four yards and a cloud of dust" is the perfect offensive philosophy.  What matters is that you win,  be it 7-0 or 40-39.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Moshiner1345 said:

I'm not sure either team was running that as their base offense. I'm also not sure what that has to do with my comment on how the field remained in fair playing condition given the crazy weather throughout the game.

If you have to ask why the field of a multi-billion dollar organization held up better than that of a high school who rents a former IPS field I'm not sure you'd understand even if you were told. 

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Just now, Muda69 said:

Wouldn't any coach worth his salt want to maximize his team's number and length of offensive possessions, and minimize his opponents?  Of course they do, which is why "four yards and a cloud of dust" is the perfect offensive philosophy.  What matters is that you win,  be it 7-0 or 40-39.

 

 

No because if you are only averaging 4 yards per a play you need a lot of plays to be successfully ran without error to capitalize.  
 

meanwhile if you play the pass you’re probably not throwing it more than 25 times a game and the yards per play significantly higher + the fact that there are a number of other defensive penalties available to be called which result in 1st downs.

 

running the ball repeatedly is so inefficient, only ideal if you don’t have the personnel to execute on pass.  
 

It’s about maximizing opportunities.  Running the ball just minimizes the number of bad outcomes…aka playing to not lose 

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2 minutes ago, Moshiner1345 said:

I'm not sure either team was running that as their base offense. I'm also not sure what that has to do with my comment on how the field remained in fair playing condition given the crazy weather throughout the game.

I'm not sure what your comment about last night's field conditions has to do with teams running the Wing-T on a natural grass field when neither of those teams were running the Wing-T. 

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3 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

No because if you are only averaging 4 yards per a play you need a lot of plays to be successfully ran without error to capitalize.  
 

meanwhile if you play the pass you’re probably not throwing it more than 25 times a game and the yards per play significantly higher + the fact that there are a number of other defensive penalties available to be called which result in 1st downs.

 

running the ball repeatedly is so inefficient, only ideal if you don’t have the personnel to execute on pass.  
 

It’s about maximizing opportunities.  Running the ball just minimizes the number of bad outcomes…aka playing to not lose 

Three Things Can Happen When You Pass and Two of Them Are Bad.  Wise words by a famous coach who has a higher football I.Q. than anybody else on this forum.

 

Edited by Muda69
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NFL teams supply 12 primary footballs and 12 backup footballs apiece per game. That’s 48 footballs, on top of the 8 ‘kicking’ balls provided by the league. 
 

When was the last time a HS game rotated 56 footballs? 

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Looking at stats to reference what I’m talking about 

 

Gibson Southern has attempted 212 passes for 2724 yards…good for 12.8 yards per attempt…doesn’t even factor in DPI or Dholding or roughing the QB

 

Gibson Southern has run the ball 215 times for 1698 yards…good for 7.9 per play…..the penalties in play are pretty much horse collar or holding…but nothing different that any person with the ball.  
 

now granted GS has Brady Allen but GS has done this for 10 years and that’s because it works.  
 

the goal is to move usually about 80 yards or less and score….do you want to take 10+ plays to do it or do you want to do it in 6/7? 

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How did Craig T Nelson get the Cal Polytechnical and Minnesota State jobs? He should be blackballed for his clock management blunders at the end of the 1983 Ampipe / Walnut Heights game. Cost the Bulldogs a perfect season. The star players spiraled out of control after that devistating loss. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Three Things Can Happen When You Pass and Two of Them Are Bad.  Wise words by a famous coach who has a higher football I.Q. than anybody else on this forum.

 

That’s misguided into today’s game…especially with how the new protections for receivers and the QB.  Not to mention throwing the ball bypasses many of the defenders in play to make the tackle.  Running the ball you have 11 helmets who can get to the ball and make a tackle…throwing the ball you have maybe 3 if the receiver is double teamed with safety help 

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5 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

That’s misguided into today’s game…especially with how the new protections for receivers and the QB.  Not to mention throwing the ball bypasses many of the defenders in play to make the tackle.  Running the ball you have 11 helmets who can get to the ball and make a tackle…throwing the ball you have maybe 3 if the receiver is double teamed with safety help 

Ahh, so the passing cognoscenti have had to use rule changes to make their preferred play style viable.   Must be nice to have the OMG! High School Athletes to run such a system year after year after year.  

Control the clock and the number of possessions.  Win the game.

 

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8 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Looking at stats to reference what I’m talking about 

 

Gibson Southern has attempted 212 passes for 2724 yards…good for 12.8 yards per attempt…doesn’t even factor in DPI or Dholding or roughing the QB

 

Gibson Southern has run the ball 215 times for 1698 yards…good for 7.9 per play…..the penalties in play are pretty much horse collar or holding…but nothing different that any person with the ball.  
 

now granted GS has Brady Allen but GS has done this for 10 years and that’s because it works.  
 

the goal is to move usually about 80 yards or less and score….do you want to take 10+ plays to do it or do you want to do it in 6/7? 

I think this is where the discipline component comes into play.  I hear you on the idea that moving the ball without error is typically key to success.  The questions then become where does the team excel naturally and where do you want to spend the time.  I've not looked at the stats for things like holding penalties, but passing games offset those holding penalties, on average, in a single play, compared to a 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense.  I think the move to pass offenses seems to also fit with the move toward more home runs and more strikeouts that we are seeing in baseball.  Playing good "smallball" is being replaced in some quadrants by "bigball/quickball."  There are some that figure out the bigger strategy and couple bigball/smallball, but in other aspects there's the "less effort" quick reward approach.  BTW, to your question of the number of plays, that is heavily tied to discipline and, as might be expected, that [should] get better as you progress upward in the game.  Nonetheless, as much as it matters, it is an issue as, in a 3 yards strategy, a hold on first down kills the series as the penalty yards can't be overcome.  

I'll toss in another component of your questions and go with my favorite focus area, defense.  I often like the idea of an offensive defense.  A defense that stuffed teams deep and took away yards helped to make that 80 yards that offenses often practice to work with shorter and thereby also tended to make the number of plays necessary to score less which in turn decreased the likelihood of offensive penalties, even in disciplined teams, this increasing the flexibility of teams to rely more on short-gain, 3 yard offenses with less potential for downside.

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12 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

How did Craig T Nelson get the Cal Polytechnical and Minnesota State jobs? He should be blackballed for his clock management blunders at the end of the 1983 Ampipe / Walnut Heights game. Cost the Bulldogs a perfect season. The star players spiraled out of control after that devistating loss. 

 

Agree...Coach Nickerson laid the Walnut Heights loss on the shoulders of "the Vooch".....destroyed the young man.  Never should have handed off the ball pouring rain on the Walnut Heights goalline after the defense held....QB sneak it and its over baby!!

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29 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Agree...Coach Nickerson laid the Walnut Heights loss on the shoulders of "the Vooch".....destroyed the young man.  Never should have handed off the ball pouring rain on the Walnut Heights goalline after the defense held....QB sneak it and its over baby!!

Out of reactions - but like 100 times.

Should have had Rifleman fall on the ball.  Although in the sequel we find out that Djordjevic ends up joining the Navy and becoming a pretty good fighter pilot.

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@foxbatwithout quoting the long thing in general I agree with your points…yes you still have the execute…the problem is…a bad passing offense is probably around 6/7 yards per attempt.  While a good running offense is 6/7 yards an attempt. Maybe a little more but still….you can have a great defense still with a passing attack. 
 

without a doubt though, if you don’t have the personnel to pass effectively, a good coach will figure out a way to run the ball effectively…still need the guys…it’s just that if all things were equal in terms of personnel, passing is still more efficient. 

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52 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Ahh, so the passing cognoscenti have had to use rule changes to make their preferred play style viable.   Must be nice to have the OMG! High School Athletes to run such a system year after year after year.  

Control the clock and the number of possessions.  Win the game.

 

I don’t know why you are trying to play the figure of wise older gentleman like you are inherently smarter than everyone but statistically you’re just wrong and it’s ignorant of you to continue to do so on this topic.  There isn’t much of a correlation between time of possession and winning the game. 
 

DC1F2C16-7DCC-4386-9415-80971B885C22.thumb.jpeg.c7b749be654516efdc2336ff5a4e820c.jpeg

 

just under 9 minutes to score 49 points.  I can’t remember the last time GS won the time of possession battle. Honestly it’s more important for other teams because their goal is to keep the offense off the field more to limit the damage…but the passing game is efficient so the longer the offense is out there the less likely it is that they can comeback. 
 

it’s this way in the nfl with many of the top teams going 60/40 pass if not more….in college we seen it with burrow and LSU…even saban has commented saying that you have to pass in today’s game and most of college is catching on to this too….it’s becoming that way for HS.

 

An appropriate comparison is to the advancements in tools/home building….30 years ago sub contractors laughed at the idea of setting up an air compressor and air hoses to use pneumatic staplers/nailers, citing there was a lot of setup work to get it going and thinking it’s less efficient….today you wouldn’t catch a construction company without one if there was a use because of how much more efficient it is once everything is in place…it’s less taxing on the body too…even the Amish use air compressors nowadays 

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