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Ole Miss vs Wayne brew haha


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11 hours ago, Gipper said:

This  wasn’t the first fight between two teams.  There was a lot at stake, emotions were running high.   Although it was a very bad outcome, It’s Trump’s fault.

I blame the Brandon Administration. 

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Since it looks like both teams are guilty in this matter, then they both should be removed from the tourney or nothing should happen to either team.  I watched the video but not the entire game so I didn't see everything.  But from the play in question that started the final fight, both schools are at fault.  If the IHSAA wants to send a message then kick both teams out of the tourney.  If you fight you get removed.  

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5 hours ago, Plymouthfan91 said:

Since it looks like both teams are guilty in this matter, then they both should be removed from the tourney or nothing should happen to either team.  I watched the video but not the entire game so I didn't see everything.  But from the play in question that started the final fight, both schools are at fault.  If the IHSAA wants to send a message then kick both teams out of the tourney.  If you fight you get removed.  

So if you're punishing both teams, how does removing Wayne from the tournament serve as punishment to them?

I have talked to a player that was on the field for the game and, not surprisingly, there was much leading up to this and both sides carry blame and deserve punishment.  I'm not punishing the whole MIssissinewa team for the actions of a few players though.  Not to mention it screws up the tournament by giving a team a bye in the regional round (I'm sure Northridge would rather play than not as well) so you're really punishing other teams as well.  Punishment is warranted, and those that are guilty should absolutely be dealt with and made an example of.  I don't think removing the whole team from the tournament is warranted here though.  The vast majority of their team stayed on the other side of the field.  

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21 minutes ago, Grover said:

You could start by talking to the referees. 

You can be sure that the crew chief made a lengthy report to the IHSAA before ever hitting the hay that night. As the game was terminated at that point, you should be aware that the officials nevertheless retain jurisdiction over the game for as long as it takes to complete any “administrative duties” associated with the contest. That means they can go to their locker room after the game was terminated, compare notes as a crew, and retroactively disqualify players if warranted.

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

You can be sure that the crew chief made a lengthy report to the IHSAA before ever hitting the hay that night. As the game was terminated at that point, you should be aware that the officials nevertheless retain jurisdiction over the game for as long as it takes to complete any “administrative duties” associated with the contest. That means they can go to their locker room after the game was terminated, compare notes as a crew, and retroactively disqualify players if warranted.

Would they be able to use video to help in a case like this? I am thinking along the lines of asking the teams for a copy of their game video. 

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Just now, Irishman said:

Would they be able to use video to help in a case like this? I am thinking along the lines of asking the teams for a copy of their game video. 

The officials are precluded from using video. But the IHSAA certainly isn’t. And I would expect that Asst. Commissioner Faulkens is already reviewing video. 

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6 hours ago, XStar said:

So if you're punishing both teams, how does removing Wayne from the tournament serve as punishment to them?

I have talked to a player that was on the field for the game and, not surprisingly, there was much leading up to this and both sides carry blame and deserve punishment.  I'm not punishing the whole MIssissinewa team for the actions of a few players though.  Not to mention it screws up the tournament by giving a team a bye in the regional round (I'm sure Northridge would rather play than not as well) so you're really punishing other teams as well.  Punishment is warranted, and those that are guilty should absolutely be dealt with and made an example of.  I don't think removing the whole team from the tournament is warranted here though.  The vast majority of their team stayed on the other side of the field.  

Then who do we place responsibility on?  It starts with the players, who are coached by the coaches who choose to play them in the game, the coaches are under the direct supervision of the AD, who is under the direct supervision of the Principal, who is under the direct supervision of the Super, who is under the direction of the school board.  

I don't know if the schools boards in this case are elected or appointed so I don't know who they answer to.  

But I know that in the end the kids will be punished.  We know that "poop" runs downhill.  I wonder who will accept the responsibility or will the IHSAA have to determine who is responsible?

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7 hours ago, XStar said:

So if you're punishing both teams, how does removing Wayne from the tournament serve as punishment to them?

I have talked to a player that was on the field for the game and, not surprisingly, there was much leading up to this and both sides carry blame and deserve punishment.  I'm not punishing the whole MIssissinewa team for the actions of a few players though.  Not to mention it screws up the tournament by giving a team a bye in the regional round (I'm sure Northridge would rather play than not as well) so you're really punishing other teams as well.  Punishment is warranted, and those that are guilty should absolutely be dealt with and made an example of.  I don't think removing the whole team from the tournament is warranted here though.  The vast majority of their team stayed on the other side of the field.  

To some extent I agree, but I think you look at it in context.  I would not take off the table, as a future punishment, both teams being eliminated from a tournament and I also would make sure that there was something commensurate for a team that didn't care if they were out of the tournament vs. the team that won that game and would benefit from staying in.  With that said, I've not seen the video, so I'm speaking in more general terms than specific to this.

What upsets me most about this is that any player thought the actions were acceptable.  Yes, in the heat of a moment a kid often does something bonehead, but when it gets to this level, that not an isolated bonehead moment ... that's culture and that's coaching.  Yes, I only coached youth ball, but took time at the start of the season and throughout the season to talk about how to conduct ourselves on the field.  No player talks to the ref other than to say "Here you go" when handing not tossing the ball at them after a play, "Thanks" when being helped up, to respond to the coin toss request or whether we want to take or deny the penalty, or to say "Good game" after the game.  No player talks to a player on the other team except to say "Good run or good catch or nice pass or good hit," "Thanks" after being helped up or paid a compliment, or "Good game" after the game.  If you are hit after a play, held, punched, etc. you immediately return to the huddle without a word, tell me or the offensive coach, and we will discuss with the ref or the other team's coach.  They were not to put their hands or body on another kid during the course of the game except in the course between the whistles of a fair hit.  And while you might say, well that's just youth ball, I had players have to endure trash talking, taunting, head-hunters at the end of the game taunting smaller guys who got to run the ball, punching, slamming heads into the ground by grabbing the face mask and yanking down, and handfuls of mud flung up into the face of offensive linemen.

Our boys knew that was unacceptable whether you were winning or losing and retaliation was only an option through pancaking the guy on the next play, hitting him hard enough to make him drop the ball, or outrunning him to the goalline.  Again, I'm going solely off of what I'm seeing folks say about this in the thread, but this doesn't sound like a bonehead, one-off kind of event and the IHSAA should make sure that there is something that comes down on this.  The vast majority of these kids will not see a college field and it'll be rare for some of them to ever see a pro field, but I can guarantee you that everyone of them will be in a situation later in life where cooler, calmer, disciplined heads will be needed and muscle-flexing will provide the wrong kind of attention/result.

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The problem in the video is #62. How Wayne reacted was natural human behavior. Number 62, who weighs about 280 lbs, leveled a kid who weighs about 140. If Wayne players didn't come to his aid, then shame on them. This is 95% about #62 and only 5% about how Wayne reacted. Also note that it was not an 'all out brawl.' Several Wayne players kept their composure. 

That being said, if I'm Coach Haydock, 95% of my focus would be on the five unsportsmanlike conduct penalties that led up to the large fight............that's a major problem that needs to be addressed.  The other 5% is focused on the reaction of the Wayne players when their 140 lb teammate got blasted by a kid twice his size................#76 on Wayne should be given praise for putting an end to what #62 had started. 

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1 hour ago, foxbat said:

  Yes, in the heat of a moment a kid often does something bonehead, but when it gets to this level, that not an isolated bonehead moment ... that's culture and that's coaching. 

IMO, this is 100% on the coaches.  With 5 Un-Sportsman's-like penalties:  not 1... not 2... not 3... not 4... but F-I-V-E  penalties, the coaches had plenty of warning this was coming.  The coaches either chose to look the other way, effectively giving their approval to the behavior, or they were incompetent.  They could have taken any/all kids involved off the field IMMEDIATELY, thus sending a clear message to any other players that this type of behavior would not be tolerated. 

Crisis avoided.

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2 hours ago, Bobref said:

The officials are precluded from using video. But the IHSAA certainly isn’t. And I would expect that Asst. Commissioner Faulkens is already reviewing video. 

When players are ejected are they supposed to stay in the locker room until the conclusion of the game?  There are reports that the ejected players from Wayne were along the fence in front of the stands and then jumped over the fence when everything took place.  Also if an official is hearing racial slurs being said on the field, would it be in the best interest of everybody for the officials to stop the game and call both head coach's to midfield or at least go to each head coach to address the racial slurs and then give each coach an opportunity to talk with their team to knock it off?  If it was going on in the first half, would be alright for the officials to enter each teams locker room to tell each team that if they heard it at all in the second half that the player using it would be immediately ejected as this talk is their warning?  

I personally think that the Mississinewa player should be punished and held responsible so that he can learn from his actions.  But I think there there could have been some early intervention that may have been able to prevented this from taking place.  Sadly, both programs and schools in general have now received a bad reputation across the state because of the actions of a few players/students.  

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11 minutes ago, Indiansreloaded said:

When players are ejected are they supposed to stay in the locker room until the conclusion of the game?  There are reports that the ejected players from Wayne were along the fence in front of the stands and then jumped over the fence when everything took place.  Also if an official is hearing racial slurs being said on the field, would it be in the best interest of everybody for the officials to stop the game and call both head coach's to midfield or at least go to each head coach to address the racial slurs and then give each coach an opportunity to talk with their team to knock it off?  If it was going on in the first half, would be alright for the officials to enter each teams locker room to tell each team that if they heard it at all in the second half that the player using it would be immediately ejected as this talk is their warning? 

A disqualified player may remain on the sidelines. However, if a coach is ejected he must leave the facility and have no contact with the team for the remainder of the contest.

How to handle potentially inflammatory exchanges between teams is something that is so situation-specific, you can’t really develop a hard and fast protocol for dealing with them. The Referee has wide discretion to adapt an approach to fit the circumstances.  I think it is a bad idea for the officials to address a team in the locker room on that subject. They should deal strictly with the head coach.

I’ll relate one anecdote that provides an example of a way to deal with it. I was the Referee on a college game involving two teams with a well known history of not liking one another. By the middle of the 1st quarter there had been several incidents of pushing and shoving, and 4 dead ball personal fouls. I sent both teams to their benches and called the head coaches to the middle of the field. They both began explaining how the other team was the instigator, and I cut them off, saying “ I didn’t bring you out here to hear what you had to say. I brought you out here so you could hear what I have to say. Any pushing or shoving is now going to be penalized as a personal foul — no leeway. And any dead ball personal foul or unsportsmanlike act is going to be an ejection. Now, without further comment, go back to your sidelines and communicate that to your players. End of discussion.”

One approach that I’ve seen used in the case of skirmishes where nonplayers enter the field, or where there is a significant pregame incident, is to assess an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on every player and coach on both teams. This means that any subsequent unsportsmanlike act results in mandatory disqualification of the offender.

As to racial remarks, the IHSAA has a zero tolerance policy. If an official hears it, immediate disqualification is warranted.

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12 minutes ago, Bobref said:

A disqualified player may remain on the sidelines. However, if a coach is ejected he must leave the facility and have no contact with the team for the remainder of the contest.

How to handle potentially inflammatory exchanges between teams is something that is so situation-specific, you can’t really develop a hard and fast protocol for dealing with them. The Referee has wide discretion to adapt an approach to fit the circumstances.  I think it is a bad idea for the officials to address a team in the locker room on that subject. They should deal strictly with the head coach.

I’ll relate one anecdote that provides an example of a way to deal with it. I was the Referee on a college game involving two teams with a well known history of not liking one another. By the middle of the 1st quarter there had been several incidents of pushing and shoving, and 4 dead ball personal fouls. I sent both teams to their benches and called the head coaches to the middle of the field. They both began explaining how the other team was the instigator, and I cut them off, saying “ I didn’t bring you out here to hear what you had to say. I brought you out here so you could hear what I have to say. Any pushing or shoving is now going to be penalized as a personal foul — no leeway. And any dead ball personal foul or unsportsmanlike act is going to be an ejection. Now, without further comment, go back to your sidelines and communicate that to your players. End of discussion.”

One approach that I’ve seen used in the case of skirmishes where nonplayers enter the field, or where there is a significant pregame incident, is to assess an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on every player and coach on both teams. This means that any subsequent unsportsmanlike act results in mandatory disqualification of the offender.

As to racial remarks, the IHSAA has a zero tolerance policy. If an official hears it, immediate disqualification is warranted.

I only asked about the officials going to the locker room thinking that it might get players attention but at the same time I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea.  Calling both coach's to mid-field like you did I think would get the attention of both teams that the actions won't be tolerated.  If I was a coach and I was called to mid-field for a conversation like this, I would be embarrassed and relay that to my team to not embarrass me again like that because if they did, then the next practice they wouldn't like.  Doing the unsportsmanlike on both teams and coach's seems like a logical thing to do as they would be offsetting penalties and would get some attention.  

Kids will be kids and say things that they shouldn't say.  Over the years I have heard racial slurs from players on and off the field/court.  In this incident I feel that either the officials weren't hearing the racial slurs, as we know things are said in piles on the ground that can't be heard, or the officials heard them but chose to ignore them.  But then again, perhaps the ejected players had used the slurs causing their ejection.  

Are the officials reports on things like this made public?  It would be interesting to see what the officials side of what happened.  If they are not public, I can understand why because it could cause future problems in life for those involved and/or threats to officials by those that were named.

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1 minute ago, Indiansreloaded said:

Are the officials reports on things like this made public?  It would be interesting to see what the officials side of what happened.  If they are not public, I can understand why because it could cause future problems in life for those involved and/or threats to officials by those that were named.

The officials make a postgame report to the IHSAA immediately. What the IHSAA chooses to do with that report is up to them. But I have never heard of one being made public.

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52 minutes ago, temptation said:

I was told that Brandon would heal/unify the nation and that these types of incidents would be a thing of the past.

Sigh🙄...many, if not most of us, come to these forums to get away from the political ignorance coming from both sides these days.  Can't we simply let the GID be about high school football, please...

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1 hour ago, 36_Belly said:

I heard the Wayne players destroyed their locker room after the game. Can anyone verify this? 

They heard vandalism was acceptable behavior for some football players in Grant County after games.  

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Taking time out from this until decisions are made by the IHSAA. 

 

For future reference, an occasional funny political jab is ok......but repeated comments related.......not so much. 

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