SAC

[Justasportsfan]

8 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

That is correct, for enrollment purposes. However, I think there has been some confusion on how Success Factor points will play into things since teams were moved up/down this year based on Success Factor points, even though enrollment changes did not happen. So now the question is... who moves based on that? And what is being calculated? The last three years post season totals? I do not think I have seen anything definitively state that.

In another thread it appeared they may do this season as an extension of sf points..I've already sent them a donation letter 😉.. maybe they come up with a one year sf plan? 

 

9 hours ago, BTF said:

We'll have to seek games against teams from Indy in order to rise to that next level. 

I will agree that seeing programs in the postseason that you don't normally see does up ur game..athletes can only watch so much film..the 34yr streak u mentioned was partly due to those schools knowing what to expect come tourney time..Snider knew what to expect playing carmel as luers knew what jimtown brought..the programs may have changed yet bigger..faster..stronger has always reigned supreme...maybe kids now see 6 classes n think its "easier" to win in our class so we'll be fine? Not wanting to be great? A champion of all classes? I gave dwenger a shot at the upset due to them seeing them last year n having a decent scheme with who they had..that was a 6a vs 4a regional with the latter not having a "banner" year..they win..all is corrected..6a sac schools have to understand they're bigger dogs on the block..winning the conference should not be a #1 goal anymore..Carroll lost their #1 wr and #1 rb..even then..defense needed to be more physical..I've typed all this to say a sac team whose a sectional champ can be a regional champ for 34 str8 years not solely bcuz of ooc opponents..yet they do help..lol

Edited November 16, 2021 by Justasportsfan
grammar

[psaboy]

10 hours ago, BTF said:

It's not far off. Evansville's metro is 315,000, so about 3/4 of Fort Wayne. 

Growth outside of Indianapolis has never been a priority for the State of Indiana. Indiana's model is to have one very large city (though I wouldn't categorize Indy as 'very' large), and several small cities surrounding it. I don't think our state politicians want competition with Indy for businesses, tourism, and conferences. Far different than Ohio's model of of having a major metro areas throughout the entire state. 

Relating to football, I don't really think it's a matter of Fort Wayne not having as much resources as Indianapolis. In fact, Fort Wayne is pretty well known for it's youth training programs. It's another fact that the Summit City produces it's fair share of professional athletes per capita. Indianapolis has two major advantages. The first being the enrollments of the schools. It's hard to compete with that. The other being the competition that breeds more competition. The MIC made the HCC better, it's plain and simple. The SAC has no such luxury to find competition in the outside burbs. We'll have to seek games against teams from Indy in order to rise to that next level. 

Indy is in top 20 largest cities population wise in U.S. so that is big IMO. 

[psaboy]

3 minutes ago, psaboy said:

Indy is in top 20 largest cities population wise in U.S. so that is big IMO. 

Plus, Ohio has almost double the state population than Indiana, for what that is worth?

[BTF]

19 hours ago, psaboy said:

Plus, Ohio has almost double the state population than Indiana, for what that is worth?

Better politics over the years. But that's ok, traffic is bad enough as it is. No more growth in Fort Wayne please. 

[Prospect]

That time of the year, even blitz is joining in https://outsidethehuddle.net/2021/11/15/blitz-sacs-refusal-to-modernize-is-hurting-the-area-in-the-postseason/

[BTF]

2 hours ago, Prospect said:

That time of the year, even blitz is joining in https://outsidethehuddle.net/2021/11/15/blitz-sacs-refusal-to-modernize-is-hurting-the-area-in-the-postseason/

Great article. Thanks for sharing. Not only is the nine game regular season ineffective in producing state competitive programs in the higher classes, but it's also become very boring. Could we see a spike in attendance by bringing in some new games? Do more South Side fans show up if they host Churabusco versus hosting Homestead? Do more Snider fans show up by playing Merrillville versus playing Concordia? How about Dwenger vs Chatard versus playing Wayne. How about Wayne knocking heads with Delta every year? Those are the type of games that would boost attendance in my opinion. But what do I know. As far as the SAC is concerned, ease of scheduling trumps higher attendance and deep playoff runs. Not to mention, it's...........B...O...R...I...N...G.

[Justasportsfan]

6 minutes ago, BTF said:

Great article. Thanks for sharing. Not only is the nine game regular season ineffective in producing state competitive programs in the higher classes, but it's also become very boring. Could we see a spike in attendance by bringing in some new games? Do more South Side fans show up if they host Churabusco versus hosting Homestead? Do more Snider fans show up by playing Merrillville versus playing Concordia? How about Dwenger vs Chatard versus playing Wayne. How about Wayne knocking heads with Delta every year? Those are the type of games that would boost attendance in my opinion. But what do I know. As far as the SAC is concerned, ease of scheduling trumps higher attendance and deep playoff runs. Not to mention, it's...........B...O...R...I...N...G.

Hey get off my yard! Change will come...eventually..eh..give it about 6 or 7 more years... if the winning stops..the squeaky wheel will get its oil..

[BTF]

In all fairness, we do need to back off a little. It doesn't change my mind that a change is needed, anyone with a brainstem knows that. So before we leave the SAC for dead, we should consider what Snider and Dwenger have done in the past decade........if were being completely fair. 

Snider

2012 - 5a state finalist (still the largest division at the time)

2015 - 5a state champion

2016 - Possibly a rainstorm away from winning 5a state

2017 - One penalty too many preventing another appearance at state, this time in 6a

Dwenger

2013 - Irrelevant since 4a isn't a problem for the SAC

2015 - Irrelevant

2018 - Irrelevant

2020 - Lost in semi-state to a team they beat 9 times out of 10.

 

Conclusion: In the case for Snider and Dwenger, it's not a matter of them NEVER reaching state again (5a) in the SAC's current format. However, Snider will be in the same boat as Carroll and Homestead when they reach 6a again (and they will). Snider's enrollment is shrinking, so they will have a hard time sustaining the success in 6a that they saw in 2012 and previous seasons. Stepping up the competition will help curb that problem moving forward. Same with Dwenger at the 5a level. Are we satisfied with a 'once in awhile' state appearance? Or do we wanna hear Snider mentioned in the same sentence as Center Grove and Carmel (possibly Homestead and Carroll). Dwenger in the same sentence as Cathedral. I'd prefer the latter. Now it's in the hands of the SAC administrators. 

[Yuccaguy]

Very Happy to see Justin Kenny TOTALLY AGREE with every aspect of what I have consistently said about the SAC.  

Again, the solution to the ability of the "BIG GUYS" to compete on a larger stage will probably come down to Carroll and Homestead (the 'red-headed step-children' in the SAC's money grab for FB and BB)... 

(CHS and HHS) Leaving, and then cementing independent games with the more competitive teams of the SAC, in conjunction with picking up games in other areas of the State (or otherwise) against tougher competition, is the only way they and the  SAC's bigger schools get better also.    

By doing this, it would require the others "left behind" in the SAC to find outside competition (better).  Since it is apparent the the SAC has no intention of moving off their closed-conference stance.  

The SAC is only to the benefit of the lower classified schools!  Period, Point Blank! 

6A teams playing 2A through 4A schools for the entire regular season is fool-hearty.  Play other 6A and or competitive 5A schools week-in and week-out.  That will make you stronger in the long run.  The "lower classified" SAC schools should have no issue finding competition above their classification, if they seek to do so on the off weeks.  

I assume those that represent the teams (certain 2A and a certain 4A school playing up due to success factor) will be ... as usual the ones that are quite content with the SAC as it exists in FB.  

And the beat goes on......

[Justasportsfan]

1 hour ago, Yuccaguy said:

Very Happy to see Justin Kenny TOTALLY AGREE with every aspect of what I have consistently said about the SAC.  

Again, the solution to the ability of the "BIG GUYS" to compete on a larger stage will probably come down to Carroll and Homestead (the 'red-headed step-children' in the SAC's money grab for FB and BB)... 

(CHS and HHS) Leaving, and then cementing independent games with the more competitive teams of the SAC, in conjunction with picking up games in other areas of the State (or otherwise) against tougher competition, is the only way they and the  SAC's bigger schools get better also.    

By doing this, it would require the others "left behind" in the SAC to find outside competition (better).  Since it is apparent the the SAC has no intention of moving off their closed-conference stance.  

The SAC is only to the benefit of the lower classified schools!  Period, Point Blank! 

6A teams playing 2A through 4A schools for the entire regular season is fool-hearty.  Play other 6A and or competitive 5A schools week-in and week-out.  That will make you stronger in the long run.  The "lower classified" SAC schools should have no issue finding competition above their classification, if they seek to do so on the off weeks.  

I assume those that represent the teams (certain 2A and a certain 4A school playing up due to success factor) will be ... as usual the ones that are quite content with the SAC as it exists in FB.  

And the beat goes on......

He must be a donor..said what was discussed on here verbatim..even suggested the win% as determining factors for conference alignment..what neighboring programs would schedule the 5 teams towards the bottom of the win% list? Being a unanimous vote hurts..that one struggling program may not want the risk and/or headache of scheduling outside the sac..not to mention the gate..

[Yuccaguy]

2 minutes ago, Justasportsfan said:

He must be a donor..said what was discussed on here verbatim..even suggested the win% as determining factors for conference alignment..what neighboring programs would schedule the 5 teams towards the bottom of the win% list? Being a unanimous vote hurts..that one struggling program may not want the risk and/or headache of scheduling outside the sac..not to mention the gate..

WHO is "he" ????

If you are referring to Justin Kenny, HE is well aware of the situation in SAC.  HE is the reporter for OTL, and well in tune with the arguments/suggestions that are impeding FB in this area.  

Edited November 18, 2021 by Yuccaguy

[psaboy]

5 hours ago, BTF said:

In all fairness, we do need to back off a little. It doesn't change my mind that a change is needed, anyone with a brainstem knows that. So before we leave the SAC for dead, we should consider what Snider and Dwenger have done in the past decade........if were being completely fair. 

Snider

2012 - 5a state finalist (still the largest division at the time)

2015 - 5a state champion

2016 - Possibly a rainstorm away from winning 5a state

2017 - One penalty too many preventing another appearance at state, this time in 6a

Dwenger

2013 - Irrelevant since 4a isn't a problem for the SAC

2015 - Irrelevant

2018 - Irrelevant

2020 - Lost in semi-state to a team they beat 9 times out of 10.

 

Conclusion: In the case for Snider and Dwenger, it's not a matter of them NEVER reaching state again (5a) in the SAC's current format. However, Snider will be in the same boat as Carroll and Homestead when they reach 6a again (and they will). Snider's enrollment is shrinking, so they will have a hard time sustaining the success in 6a that they saw in 2012 and previous seasons. Stepping up the competition will help curb that problem moving forward. Same with Dwenger at the 5a level. Are we satisfied with a 'once in awhile' state appearance? Or do we wanna hear Snider mentioned in the same sentence as Center Grove and Carmel (possibly Homestead and Carroll). Dwenger in the same sentence as Cathedral. I'd prefer the latter. Now it's in the hands of the SAC administrators. 

2017 they would have to have beaten Penn in Semi. That Penn team was really good, they probably would have beaten Snider. 

[Justasportsfan]

50 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

WHO is "he" ????

If you are referring to Justin Kenny, HE is well aware of the situation in SAC.  HE is the reporter for OTL, and well in tune with the arguments/suggestions that are impeding FB in this area.  

Lol..yes Justin kenny..figured we both knew who "HE" was..probably a nice gig..

[Justasportsfan]

26 minutes ago, psaboy said:

2017 they would have to have beaten Penn in Semi. That Penn team was really good, they probably would have beaten Snider. 

penn that got crushed the next week? Carmel won that game with talent as well as the panthers aiding n abetting the heist of hardware.. imo carmel may have overlooked penn that year...

[psaboy]

21 minutes ago, Justasportsfan said:

penn that got crushed the next week? Carmel won that game with talent as well as the panthers aiding n abetting the heist of hardware.. imo carmel may have overlooked penn that year...

After Carmel beat Snider in regional, Penn went to Carmel had whipped them pretty good on their home field, 34-7 for the semi state. Probably the last very good team that Penn have had in recent years. The Ben Davis team that beat Penn in state in 2017 may have been one of the top 5 high schools teams in Indiana history. 

[Justasportsfan]

5 minutes ago, psaboy said:

After Carmel beat Snider in regional, Penn went to Carmel had whipped them pretty good on their home field, 34-7 for the semi state. Probably the last very good team that Penn have had in recent years. The Ben Davis team that beat Penn in state in 2017 may have been one of the top 5 high schools teams in Indiana history. 

Eh for what it counts they beat a depleted hounds team 28-10 that year. Definitely top 10

[Guest]

The 6A schools in The SAC have a much bigger problem than the round robin schedule.

In the case of Homestead, and especially Carroll, both schools lack the interior line size and physicality to compete against the top 6A schools in the state.  Neither school has a record of producing D1 linemen.  The current rosters are stocked with lightweights at the Guard and tackle positions.  The DAC has become more competitive at the state level because they have consistently developed big men over the past 5 years.  Valpo routinely has 4 or 5 players in the 270-310 range, 6-3 to 6-6.  Merrillville just a notch behind.  Michigan City has good size.  Chesterton as well.  Warsaw is similar to City and Chesterton .  Elkhart has good size.  Snider has some size, Demon Moore is a Big Ten lineman.  Why are Carroll and Homestead so far behind on big men?  My guess is both schools are behind in the strength and conditioning department.  Dinan and Zolman will tell you they have good weight lifting programs, but their rosters dont bear that out.  Until that gets rectified, it makes no sense for Carroll to travel down to Indy and get waxed by any of 10 metro Indy schools because they get pushed around for 4 quarters.

 

 

 

[southend]

4 hours ago, HHF said:

The 6A schools in The SAC have a much bigger problem than the round robin schedule.

In the case of Homestead, and especially Carroll, both schools lack the interior line size and physicality to compete against the top 6A schools in the state.  Neither school has a record of producing D1 linemen.  The current rosters are stocked with lightweights at the Guard and tackle positions.  The DAC has become more competitive at the state level because they have consistently developed big men over the past 5 years.  Valpo routinely has 4 or 5 players in the 270-310 range, 6-3 to 6-6.  Merrillville just a notch behind.  Michigan City has good size.  Chesterton as well.  Warsaw is similar to City and Chesterton .  Elkhart has good size.  Snider has some size, Demon Moore is a Big Ten lineman.  Why are Carroll and Homestead so far behind on big men?  My guess is both schools are behind in the strength and conditioning department.  Dinan and Zolman will tell you they have good weight lifting programs, but their rosters dont bear that out.  Until that gets rectified, it makes no sense for Carroll to travel down to Indy and get waxed by any of 10 metro Indy schools because they get pushed around for 4 quarters.

 

 

 

Let’s set the record straight, Carroll and Homestead are lightweights?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, southend said:

Let’s set the record straight, Carroll and Homestead are lightweights?

Not against you.  Against the MIC and the HCC?  Yes

7 hours ago, southend said:

Let’s set the record straight, Carroll and Homestead are lightweights?

 

[southend]

 

Not against you.  Against the MIC and the HCC?  Yes

 

Got it. Light weights. 

[BTF]

21 hours ago, HHF said:

Until that gets rectified, it makes no sense for Carroll to travel down to Indy and get waxed by any of 10 metro Indy schools because they get pushed around for 4 quarters.

So wait until Regionals to get waxed by Indy? I have a hard time believing they wouldn't do better at regionals if they scheduled an Indy team during the regular season. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

So wait until Regionals to get waxed by Indy? I have a hard time believing they wouldn't do better at regionals if they scheduled an Indy team during the regular season. 

Across the board and without exception, strength training and muscle building is the biggest separator between north and central Indiana 6A football.   Those dudes down there pass the shirt test.  They are taller and thicker, and generally faster as well.  Its like the MAC vs The Big Ten.  That's a big gap, and I don't see it ever being closed on a consistent basis.  Once the demographics get away from you, there is no turning back.  There is no Region or NE Indiana renaissance coming.  Merrillville, Chesterton and Valpo will soon join City and LaPorte as permanent residents of Class 5A.  Morton and Hammond Central will also be building 5A programs over the next decade.  That will be a huge boon to DAC football.  This will happen simultaneously as Crown Point and Lake Central rebuild with better staffs and a recommitment to winning.  Carroll and Homestead might have to wait another 20 years until enough additional Indy communities pass them in enrollment and push them down to 5A.  The best they can hope for in the short term is a 6A reclass down to 24 schools.  

Edited November 19, 2021 by HHF

[Justasportsfan]

52 minutes ago, HHF said:

Across the board and without exception, strength training and muscle building is the biggest separator between north and central Indiana 6A football.   Those dudes down there pass the shirt test.  They are taller and thicker, and generally faster as well.  Its like the MAC vs The Big Ten.  That's a big gap, and I don't see it ever being closed on a consistent basis.  Once the demographics get away from you, there is no turning back.  There is no Region or NE Indiana renaissance coming.  Merrillville, Chesterton and Valpo will soon join City and LaPorte as permanent residents of Class 5A.  Morton and Hammond Central will also be building 5A programs over the next decade.  That will be a huge boon to DAC football.  This will happen simultaneously as Crown Point and Lake Central rebuild with better staffs and a recommitment to winning.  Carroll and Homestead might have to wait another 20 years until enough additional Indy communities pass them in enrollment and push them down to 5A.  The best they can hope for in the short term is a 6A reclass down to 24 schools.  

Bigger..faster..stronger..id be shocked if Carroll n Homestead don't figure that out within 10 years..those schools will continue to get larger n their feeder programs are just now ramping up with talent..LOS discrepancy evens out then they might have a better chance..

[CLKeller16]

On 11/17/2021 at 9:47 PM, HHF said:

In the case of Homestead, and especially Carroll, both schools lack the interior line size and physicality to compete against the top 6A schools in the state.

 

On 11/17/2021 at 9:47 PM, HHF said:

My guess is both schools are behind in the strength and conditioning department.

Okay so I can see how S&C can solve the physicality issue, but not sure how it is supposed to add height to a kid or 50lbs to an 18yo with a sky high metabolism. Size at the high school level is very difficult to train because these are physically developing children. That's why you see colleges chase after the big boys, even if they can't move all that well. Because speed and agility can be taught, size can't. Central Indiana schools have more big boys because they have more students, period. The larger a sample size, the more likely you are to have outliers. The FW area and the Region just don't have the numbers to compete with the Indy area in terms of size. That said, however, (before @temptation comes flying in to say I told you so) that doesn't mean us Northern teams can't schedule and scheme to make ourselves as competitive as those Indy teams. 

[BTF]

13 hours ago, HHF said:

They are taller and thicker, and generally faster as well.  Its like the MAC vs The Big Ten.  

I can see the faster and thicker part. But I don't think the average height in Indy is any different than other parts of the state.

Fort Wayne's youth training programs are up there with anyone's. Take Traction AP for instance. They fielded a team that that won the IMG National 7 on 7 tournament. Of course it didn't get any attention since fans on here only want to talk about how great Indy is. That 7 on 7 team finishes in the top one third every year. What's probably lacking is the strength and conditioning within the programs themselves, which I think is what you are getting at. 

But let's not lose sight of the fact that better competition breeds better programs. You'd have to be blind to not recognize that Homestead and Carroll are better programs for joining the SAC. The HCC would probably be similar to the SAC or even a notch below if the MIC hadn't toughened them up over the years. Unfortunately for the SAC, there aren't any 5000 enrollment schools to toughen them up. 

Solution: Schedule the best teams you can find. A good football program, which is what Homestead and Carroll are, will ultimately rise to that higher level of play if they schedule the right competition. The proof is in the pudding . You even suggested it yourself when you came up with the idea of the "Northern Eight,"................not sure I got the name right.