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After watching the SAC's streak of having a semi-state representative for 34 years in a row come to an end tonight, it's only appropriate to bring up the topic of restructuring the conference in the off season. Teams from the Indy area proved last night that they are on a different level. This has nothing to do with the players, but everything to do with the programs.

The growth of Indy area football programs have come along way over the last 20 years, and now it's just a matter of figuring out how to catch up. It took several years, but the HCC has finally caught up with the MIC. It only took a few years, but the SAC elevated the level of play from Homestead and Carroll. Now the question is, who can elevate the level of play from the SAC? The answer is simple. Restructure the conference so that teams can schedule at least one team outside the division during the regular season. How many would be ideal? Three or four? Who knows, but one game would be a good start.

I'd like to see Snider, Homestead, and Carroll have the opportunity to schedule a team from the MIC, a team from the HCC, and a team from the region on an annual basis. Allow Dwenger to knock heads with Chatard. Luers possibly with LCC or one of those teams they used to tangle with from Ohio. That would do the trick. Instead of hitting a brick wall in the post season, our teams would know what to expect and know what to do moving forward to get to a championship level of play. This is no longer becoming a matter of opinion. It's becoming a matter of fact. If the SAC want's become a player again at a statewide level, they need to ditch the "ease of scheduling" line of thought and get rid of the 'island conference.' Twenty years ago, this Carroll team might have had what it took to reach state. Twenty years ago, this Dwenger team might have had what it took to reach state. This isn't twenty years ago. It's a new era. Make a change or get used to the status quo. 

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11 minutes ago, jakone said:

Getting beat by 40 points in September isn't going to help you when you play them in November.

"You're illuminating your lack of knowledge of the game with a comment like that." Bob Knight. 

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I have said numerous times (and probably will get ROASTED by the smaller and/or PP supporters) in the SAC because of my opinion.....BUT 

The SAC as constructed for FB is only of benefit to those schools whose enrollment is 4A or below.  The occasional Wayne win streak in the tournament should not have been surprising, they play UP in the Conference. 2A Luers/ 3A Concordia/ 4A Dwenger (Success Factor 5A) are the primary beneficiaries of the Conference alignment whenever the tournament starts, regardless of their regular season records.  

Homestead and Carroll are a prime example what "better" competition can and will do for a program.  Both of these programs, though dominants in the Northeast Hoosier, weren't always the hands-down favorite to ever win a conference championship.  Ofttimes they beaten by East Noble/DeKalb/Norwell/New Haven/Bellmont.  And once the tournament began, it was almost always expected that either one or both of them couldn't defeat the Snider juggernaut awaiting them in Sectionals.  Those days are long gone with their playing "stiffer" competition in at the top of the SAC.  To suggest that each of these programs wouldn't benefit from dropping the middling SAC schools and picking up a more robust schedule across Northern and Central IN is fool hearty.  

Mix in Snider/Dwenger/Northrop and yes though they will initially LOSE MORE than they win, it would give all the more 'successful' SAC programs a better indication of what is need for improvement across the board to win and compete with the upper echelon of IN schools in their respective classes.  

I cannot see what is gained by weekly shootouts with a cross-town rival in a closed conference that prepares you for success.  It does give you a local sense of superiority, but cannot ever give you a sense of what the HCC/Duneland/NLC/MIC and various independents are doing.  The tournament becomes an eye opening experience in speed, diversity of offense/defensive schemes, and ultimately exits by the "top" SAC teams in the larger classes.  Those in the lower classes of the SAC have had a season-long opportunity to take bumps and bruises and translate that into success during the tournament, it (SAC) is to THEIR benefit it seems.  

Ask yourself this honest question?  Of the SAC teams that entered the 2021 IHSAA FB tournament; which loss is the most unexpected?  Every team in the SAC was dispatched within or around the time we all thought they would/could lose.  

The ONLY loss that was shocking?  Eastside going on the road and methodically imposing their will in the Luers contest at the Sectional Final.  It has become quite clear at this point that the Eastside win over Luers, was NOT a fluke.  They are a formidable 2A team in 2021.  

Just my .02 Cents

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Well, everyone can chime in here until there're 'blue' in the face, but none of these many years of discussion about this topic, and on this forum, can not and will not go anywhere until such a time, that the public and non-public school corporations of the SAC have decided this is what they want to do. Such changes expressed here have no horsepower to see something accomplished at all. There are only two Interscholastic sanctioned sports in the SAC, where ten schools are represented. All of the other sports, with the exception of men's and women's basketball, have only eight schools represented; I.E., Homestead and Carroll are not part of the SAC for those, and as I believe, this is the way it was originally designed. To formulate a different plan, would obviously take a bucu load of campaign lobbying before achieving just a consideration. I have no additional input for even beginning such an effort, whereby, I'm only pointing out the obvious.

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18 minutes ago, statmurp_10 said:

Well, everyone can chime in here until there're 'blue' in the face, but none of these many years of discussion about this topic, and on this forum, can not and will not go anywhere until such a time, that the public and non-public school corporations of the SAC have decided this is what they want to do. Such changes expressed here have no horsepower to see something accomplished at all. There are only two Interscholastic sanctioned sports in the SAC, where ten schools are represented. All of the other sports, with the exception of men's and women's basketball, have only eight schools represented; I.E., Homestead and Carroll are not part of the SAC for those, and as I believe, this is the way it was originally designed. To formulate a different plan, would obviously take a bucu load of campaign lobbying before achieving just a consideration. I have no additional input for even beginning such an effort, whereby, I'm only pointing out the obvious.

Absolutely on point!!  

The SAC has had numerous opportunities to change the system/scheduling in FB.  They have chosen to remain 'as is'.  

The only way the system changes is for the 2 "outliers" to move on and determine THEIR OWN destiny.   

The 4 FWCS affiliated schools aren't going to split up because of their commonality... so that's that.  The PP schools probably aren't going to change because of the $$ they can budget with a locally based FB/BB Conference.  

It is a thing that we will just have to debate and worry about for the foreseeable future as the "norm".....  And so it goes

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14 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

Absolutely on point!!  

The SAC has had numerous opportunities to change the system/scheduling in FB.  They have chosen to remain 'as is'.  

The only way the system changes is for the 2 "outliers" to move on and determine THEIR OWN destiny.   

The 4 FWCS affiliated schools aren't going to split up because of their commonality... so that's that.  The PP schools probably aren't going to change because of the $$ they can budget with a locally based FB/BB Conference.  

It is a thing that we will just have to debate and worry about for the foreseeable future as the "norm".....  And so it goes

Sorry 5 FWCS schools....  DOH!!!  

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Depending on what side of the bed the ihsaa decides to wake up on..if they choose to re-classify after this year things may correct itself..teams that get put out at regional usually come back stronger the next year n so forth..being ready for schemes comes down to coaching n being able to adjust in game..the programs that get back in the weight room after taking it on the chin in the tourney are usually setup for success the following year..if luers, Concordia dwenger n Snider make it out of regionals next yr this will be muted for another few seasons..id like to see the sac split for fb only yet don't see it happening

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It was voted on and was not passed. I would like to say Dwenger is a 4A school playing up and got beat again by a 6A school playing down.

The success rule is great! Dwenger was lucky they got out of sectional. Can't figure out why Snider didn't show up for that game. Dwenger's future is dark. They will go through 3 or 4 years like luers just did. Mark my word.

Dwenger will be back in 4A in 2023.

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49 minutes ago, Mebuck said:

Dwenger was lucky they got out of sectional. Can't figure out why Snider didn't show up for that game. 

It's hard to beat a rival twice in one season. Snider struggled with Northrop the week before.

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2 hours ago, Mebuck said:

It was voted on and was not passed. I would like to say Dwenger is a 4A school playing up and got beat again by a 6A school playing down.

The success rule is great! Dwenger was lucky they got out of sectional. Can't figure out why Snider didn't show up for that game. Dwenger's future is dark. They will go through 3 or 4 years like luers just did. Mark my word.

Dwenger will be back in 4A in 2023.

I thought they were treating this as a one year cycle and reclassifying next year?

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Wow, after 34 semi state appearances in a row SAC didn't make it. Yes let's burn it all down! What a crock! How about a little reality check. It should have been obvious to anyone who pays attention to football in Fort Wayne that this was not a banner year for our teams. When the smallest school in the conference nearly goes unbeaten, they are either a super team for their size or the overall quality is suspect. I assumed the latter. So I guess if we had only dropped a conference game and played Cathedral and got really stomped as one of our FOUR losses during the regular season we would have beaten Zionsville. Of course in any rational world we wouldn't be playing a team from a school nearly 90% bigger. But look at the bright side it gave all of the private school haters great satisfaction.

To my best recollection those years that Dwenger played Cathedral or Chatard during the regular season we weren't exactly cleaning up in the playoffs.

Bottomline, Carroll and Homestead are improving. When they first arrived they weren't winning championships in the SAC. They will likely continue to get better. Adding one 6A from Indy is not a guarantee of anything.

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On 11/13/2021 at 1:14 PM, Yuccaguy said:

I have said numerous times (and probably will get ROASTED by the smaller and/or PP supporters) in the SAC because of my opinion.....BUT 

The SAC as constructed for FB is only of benefit to those schools whose enrollment is 4A or below.  The occasional Wayne win streak in the tournament should not have been surprising, they play UP in the Conference. 2A Luers/ 3A Concordia/ 4A Dwenger (Success Factor 5A) are the primary beneficiaries of the Conference alignment whenever the tournament starts, regardless of their regular season records.  

Homestead and Carroll are a prime example what "better" competition can and will do for a program.  Both of these programs, though dominants in the Northeast Hoosier, weren't always the hands-down favorite to ever win a conference championship.  Ofttimes they beaten by East Noble/DeKalb/Norwell/New Haven/Bellmont.  And once the tournament began, it was almost always expected that either one or both of them couldn't defeat the Snider juggernaut awaiting them in Sectionals.  Those days are long gone with their playing "stiffer" competition in at the top of the SAC.  To suggest that each of these programs wouldn't benefit from dropping the middling SAC schools and picking up a more robust schedule across Northern and Central IN is fool hearty.  

Mix in Snider/Dwenger/Northrop and yes though they will initially LOSE MORE than they win, it would give all the more 'successful' SAC programs a better indication of what is need for improvement across the board to win and compete with the upper echelon of IN schools in their respective classes.  

I cannot see what is gained by weekly shootouts with a cross-town rival in a closed conference that prepares you for success.  It does give you a local sense of superiority, but cannot ever give you a sense of what the HCC/Duneland/NLC/MIC and various independents are doing.  The tournament becomes an eye opening experience in speed, diversity of offense/defensive schemes, and ultimately exits by the "top" SAC teams in the larger classes.  Those in the lower classes of the SAC have had a season-long opportunity to take bumps and bruises and translate that into success during the tournament, it (SAC) is to THEIR benefit it seems.  

Ask yourself this honest question?  Of the SAC teams that entered the 2021 IHSAA FB tournament; which loss is the most unexpected?  Every team in the SAC was dispatched within or around the time we all thought they would/could lose.  

The ONLY loss that was shocking?  Eastside going on the road and methodically imposing their will in the Luers contest at the Sectional Final.  It has become quite clear at this point that the Eastside win over Luers, was NOT a fluke.  They are a formidable 2A team in 2021.  

Just my .02 Cents

Perhaps the central planners that run the SAC have looked at the 250,000 people who populate the Fort Wayne Metro as opposed to the 2.2M that lie in the Indy Metro and come to the logical conclusion that they simply do not have the resources to compete at an Indy level.  This is no shot at The SAC.  Its simply basic logic.  

The Evansville Metro area is very similar to FW in terms of size and diversity.  The SAC and The SIAC are near clones in terms of the makeup of public/parochial, city/suburban membership.  The SIAC folks seem to embrace their island reality, while the SAC people push back on it.  Perhaps someone can explain the dichotomy between the two.  

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4 minutes ago, HHF said:

Perhaps the central planners that run the SAC have looked at the 250,000 people who populate the Fort Wayne Metro as opposed to the 2.2M that lie in the Indy Metro and come to the logical conclusion that they simply do not have the resources to compete at an Indy level.  This is no shot at The SAC.  Its simply basic logic.  

The Evansville Metro area is very similar to FW in terms of size and diversity.  The SAC and The SIAC are near clones in terms of the makeup of public/parochial, city/suburban membership.  The SIAC folks seem to embrace their island reality, while the SAC people push back on it.  Perhaps someone can explain the dichotomy between the two.  

Fort Wayne city limits is 276,000. Metro is 422,000. Statistical area is 610,000.

Indianapolis city limits is 887,000. Metro is 2,000,000. Statistical area is 2,400,000.

I see the only advantage here being the size of the schools. Fort Wayne's largest two schools hover around 2400 with Snider coming in at 1800. Indy has schools that hover in the 3000-5000 range. It's not necessarily the size of the cities as much as it is the enrollments of the schools. 

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

Fort Wayne city limits is 276,000. Metro is 422,000. Statistical area is 610,000.

Indianapolis city limits is 887,000. Metro is 2,000,000. Statistical area is 2,400,000.

I see the only advantage here being the size of the schools. Fort Wayne's largest two schools hover around 2400 with Snider coming in at 1800. Indy has schools that hover in the 3000-5000 range. It's not necessarily the size of the cities as much as it is the enrollments of the schools. 

Agree here, also Evansville metro area can’t be where the Fort’s metro population is. 

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45 minutes ago, southend said:

Agree here, also Evansville metro area can’t be where the Fort’s metro population is. 

117, 817 for city & 315,918 for metro is what I see for 2021 projections. 

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40 minutes ago, southend said:

Agree here, also Evansville metro area can’t be where the Fort’s metro population is. 

It's not far off. Evansville's metro is 315,000, so about 3/4 of Fort Wayne. 

Growth outside of Indianapolis has never been a priority for the State of Indiana. Indiana's model is to have one very large city (though I wouldn't categorize Indy as 'very' large), and several small cities surrounding it. I don't think our state politicians want competition with Indy for businesses, tourism, and conferences. Far different than Ohio's model of of having a major metro areas throughout the entire state. 

Relating to football, I don't really think it's a matter of Fort Wayne not having as much resources as Indianapolis. In fact, Fort Wayne is pretty well known for it's youth training programs. It's another fact that the Summit City produces it's fair share of professional athletes per capita. Indianapolis has two major advantages. The first being the enrollments of the schools. It's hard to compete with that. The other being the competition that breeds more competition. The MIC made the HCC better, it's plain and simple. The SAC has no such luxury to find competition in the outside burbs. We'll have to seek games against teams from Indy in order to rise to that next level. 

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13 hours ago, psaboy said:

If I'm reading it correctly, reclassification will happen this spring for the 2022/2023 & 2023/2024 seasons. 

That is correct, for enrollment purposes. However, I think there has been some confusion on how Success Factor points will play into things since teams were moved up/down this year based on Success Factor points, even though enrollment changes did not happen. So now the question is... who moves based on that? And what is being calculated? The last three years post season totals? I do not think I have seen anything definitively state that.

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