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Thoughts about the 6 games in the State Finals


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17 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

So there are no Cathedral players who are athletically motivated? Are we naive to think that?

Sure there are, and they have to sit out from varsity competition for 365 days. Does anyone not remember the Eron Gordon fiasco? The Gordon's had to go so far as to get a court injunction for their son to play as the IHSAA fought this tooth and nails.

Had the Carroll's or Bidding's moved into Lawrence Twp (closer to Cathedral) instead of Greenwood and enrolled at Cathedral for their senior year they would be eligible to play varsity their senior year? Not a chance in hell. 

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6 minutes ago, Grover said:

Doesn’t the Brownsburg AD have to sign off?

North Central signed off on both Eron Gordon and Jordan Walker (both future D1 players). Walker at the time was a bit of an unknown but Gordon as a sophomore at the time was considered a top 100 recruit. Walker was eligible to play immediately and Gordon wasn’t (go figure). The IHSAA really showed their ass the way they handled it.

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10 minutes ago, Grover said:

Doesn’t the Brownsburg AD have to sign off?

I mean Brownsburg has been Transfer U the last several years so I'm sure the Brownsburg AD did sign off. It'd be a bad look when you accept a plethora of transfers but don't sign off on players transferring to another program. 

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23 hours ago, fartfry18 said:

Another point about this, if the official looked up and sees at all the defender grabbing the receiver, its PI. There is no "it was whizzing by" as there is no uncatchable call in hsfb. 

The timing of any restriction is important to a foul occurring. If it happens just as the ball arrives it's not necessarily a foul. Those are referred to as "bang-bang" plays and you usually don't have a foul. If the official got there just as the ball arrived and see a grab, he's going to have to guess if the contact occurred before the ball arrived. If an official guesses and makes a call, they are going to wrong a lot more than they are going to be right. These are the types of things officials have to process all the time every game. If the official is being graded, he may still get downgraded for missing the call even if he did everything right. He could also be downgraded for mechanics if the call was right, but he was out of position or should have been looking at this action much sooner.

I haven't seen the play (the 1:25:30 mark is a halftime interview with the coach) but Bob's judgement comment is likely spot on based on the descriptions I've read. Was there a grab that constitutes a material restriction? Did it take a step away or prevent an opponent from moving toward the ball? If it's after the ball was thrown, what category of DPI do you put it in (there are 6)? If there was restriction was it before or after the ball had passed the receiver? If before you have a DPI. If after you don't have DPI but could have a personal foul depending on how late or unnecessary. Those are all judgement decisions the official has to make based on what his or her eyes tell their brain. They will often replay it again in their mind before making a decision. That is what is meant by a "judgement" call. It's not black and white like other things.

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29 minutes ago, JustRules said:

The timing of any restriction is important to a foul occurring. If it happens just as the ball arrives it's not necessarily a foul. Those are referred to as "bang-bang" plays and you usually don't have a foul. If the official got there just as the ball arrived and see a grab, he's going to have to guess if the contact occurred before the ball arrived. If an official guesses and makes a call, they are going to wrong a lot more than they are going to be right. These are the types of things officials have to process all the time every game. If the official is being graded, he may still get downgraded for missing the call even if he did everything right. He could also be downgraded for mechanics if the call was right, but he was out of position or should have been looking at this action much sooner.

I haven't seen the play (the 1:25:30 mark is a halftime interview with the coach) but Bob's judgement comment is likely spot on based on the descriptions I've read. Was there a grab that constitutes a material restriction? Did it take a step away or prevent an opponent from moving toward the ball? If it's after the ball was thrown, what category of DPI do you put it in (there are 6)? If there was restriction was it before or after the ball had passed the receiver? If before you have a DPI. If after you don't have DPI but could have a personal foul depending on how late or unnecessary. Those are all judgement decisions the official has to make based on what his or her eyes tell their brain. They will often replay it again in their mind before making a decision. That is what is meant by a "judgement" call. It's not black and white like other things.

The play occurs at +2:25:25 mark (there is -1:25:30 on the right hand side for the amount of time remaining in the video.)

I'm not an official, don't want to be one, but here is my interpretation of the play.  I would think the call should have been defensive holding, which as the officials above have mentioned, was an almost impossible call to see.

The play-action fooled the defense and all indications were it was a run play. The QB pulled and fired a quick slant to the single receiver.  The receiver broke in front of the outside LB who grabbed the jersey with his left (inside) hand.  To the referee on that side, he sees the LB's right (outside) hand in a legal guarding position and I don't think any foul occurs with that hand, IMO. 

The back judge would have been keying the strong (3 receiver) side.  The only person who could have seen the tug by the LB with the inside hand would have been the umpire.  With the run action and line movement, you can see on the video he follows the ball but by the time his head turns he would not have seen the contact that occurred prior to the pass being thrown. 

Apologies to the officials who read this for my most likely improper description of mechanics and keys.  I would label several other things during the game (non-officiating related) egregious before I would consider that play as having an impact on the outcome. 

 

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1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said:

The play occurs at +2:25:25 mark (there is -1:25:30 on the right hand side for the amount of time remaining in the video.)

I'm not an official, don't want to be one, but here is my interpretation of the play.  I would think the call should have been defensive holding, which as the officials above have mentioned, was an almost impossible call to see.

The play-action fooled the defense and all indications were it was a run play. The QB pulled and fired a quick slant to the single receiver.  The receiver broke in front of the outside LB who grabbed the jersey with his left (inside) hand.  To the referee on that side, he sees the LB's right (outside) hand in a legal guarding position and I don't think any foul occurs with that hand, IMO. 

The back judge would have been keying the strong (3 receiver) side.  The only person who could have seen the tug by the LB with the inside hand would have been the umpire.  With the run action and line movement, you can see on the video he follows the ball but by the time his head turns he would not have seen the contact that occurred prior to the pass being thrown. 

Apologies to the officials who read this for my most likely improper description of mechanics and keys.  I would label several other things during the game (non-officiating related) egregious before I would consider that play as having an impact on the outcome. 

 

Do you officiate basketball by chance? I believe "legal guarding position" is term used in basketball. I was able to find that clip and I think that should have been a DPI. There is definitely a restriction and a version of a hook and turn. It does appear to start before the ball is thrown, but if it was still occurring with the ball in the air it will become DPI. In this case the foul ruled is not critical as both with be half the distance penalties and result in a first down as enforcement is beyond the line to gain. The H probably should have gotten there quick enough to see this. It's not easy to do, but if he's doing his job well he would get there in time. The U would pivot to help with catch/no catch but would not rule on anything DPI or DH related. If the B has good periphery they would get there quicker as well even though their initial focus is on the other side of the field.

This play is an example of the benefit of a 7-man crew in the playoffs or at least state championship. There would be a side judge on the pylon and this receiver would be his key. He would have him from the snap and would have a great view of this. Hopefully we'll get there eventually. There are always a handful of plays in each game where having deep wings make it much easier to get a call correct. You are going to have holes in 5-man.

Edited by JustRules
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17 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Center Grove was "blessed" with not one, but TWO, D1 transfers this offseason as one year rentals. One is committed to a school that is likely going to be in the CFB playoffs and the other to an ACC school. Everybody is taking advantage of open-enrollment. Cathedral is hurt more than they are helped by open-enrollment. Prior to open-enrollment you played within your district or you ponied up to go to a private school. Today, you can be the #1 rated QB in the nation living in Avon where your older brother plays football while playing Brownsburg or you can play at Brownsburg for 3 years and transfer to Center Grove for your senior season. 

Let's see if CG can continue that for 15 years. My prediction is once Cathedral gets to 6A that CG, WC, and even Carmel won't be able to keep up. Cathedral also benefits from many other factors like boosters, a youth league that spans the city, academics and extracurriculars which have always been top notch. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

My argument has never been the P/Ps directly benefit from "poaching" -- even prior to open enrollment; open enrollment actually benefits city/suburban schools far more than rural schools due to distance. P/Ps benefit from all the reasons (mostly socially economically driven or at least correlated) which I mentioned. Standards and expectations are higher from chorus to debate club to athletics. Cathedral is the best positioned P/P in the state to compete with the mega schools and they will figure out a way -- just give them some time.

Disclaimer: I was born in Carmel, went to HS at Heritage Hills, had multiple family members go to Manuel, Carmel, Westfield (pre-2000), North Central, Cathedral, and Chatard. I'm well aware of the intricacies and changes of city, township, "suburban sprawl", private, and parochial schools in the Indy area.

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3 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Let's see if CG can continue that for 15 years. My prediction is once Cathedral gets to 6A that CG, WC, and even Carmel won't be able to keep up. Cathedral also benefits from many other factors like boosters, a youth league that spans the city, academics and extracurriculars which have always been top notch. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

I think Center Grove and Carmel will definitely keep up. Center Grove has one of the more impressive youth football leagues in the state in their CGBFL (Center Grove Bantam Football League). No idea how many years Coach Moore will continue coaching, but he and that youth league have set-up any successor to him with that league. I would say Carmel and HSE/Fishers have also set-up nicely with their youth football. I think New Pal has made great strides in their youth. Carmel, HSE, Fishers, and Center Grove still have thriving numbers in their school systems. Whiteland, Westfield, Zionsville, and New Palestine continue to grow in population.

Won't disagree with any of what you say Cathedral has in benefits, but don't think the others will have a problem keeping up (as you call it). I know the recruiting moniker gets tossed out a lot. Just about every Private school recruits because they have to in order to keep the doors open. I can tell you without a doubt Brebeuf Jesuit, Cathedral, and other Private schools recruit every student that walks in their doors (many times they don't even have to do the recruiting as parents approach them). It is not just sports though, they recruit kids for every aspect doesn't matter if they are chess club, choir, mathaletes, science, football, baseball basketball. If we are really being honest there aren't a whole lot of kids as 7th or 8th graders we definitely know what they will be when Juniors or Seniors and that goes for any school. You have occasions where you have a stud player that shows as a Freshman and starts Varsity, but there aren't overwhelming numbers of them. This goes for all programs there are kids with promise as Freshman, but it is when they hit the weight program, speed and agility training where they become that much better.

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Cathedral has already had a chance in 6A... didn't even make it to Lucas Oil.  I think the top HCC and MIC schools will always have 1 or 2 teams each year that can beat the Irish.  I think Cathedral belongs in 6A obviously and will at least have a shot every year.  The HCC and MIC schools will continue to take turns as they develop 1 or 2 classes that build into champions, just like Westfield did.  They'll reload, but it will take time to return to Lucas Oil.  That is why what CG did the last 3 years was so out of the norm.  It will take Roncalli time to develop to get back as well.  It is hard to repeat at any level.  Besides Cathedral playing in 6A, that is why the success factor isn't the perfect answer.

Also, btw.... only 1 move in from Brownsburg had D1 offers, and he didn't play the 2nd half of the season.  The other kid only has walk-on offers.  Just Sayin!  The Trojans D only had 3 kids with actual D1 offers, the record needs to be set straight on that.  The 2 that played in the state championship are CG kids.  

I think that Roncalli should get the Trojans on the schedule asap, before they rebuild.  Just like New Pal did, man that was a smart move by Ralph.  

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51 minutes ago, StatQueen said:

Cathedral has already had a chance in 6A... didn't even make it to Lucas Oil.  I think the top HCC and MIC schools will always have 1 or 2 teams each year that can beat the Irish.  I think Cathedral belongs in 6A obviously and will at least have a shot every year.  The HCC and MIC schools will continue to take turns as they develop 1 or 2 classes that build into champions, just like Westfield did.  They'll reload, but it will take time to return to Lucas Oil.  That is why what CG did the last 3 years was so out of the norm.  It will take Roncalli time to develop to get back as well.  It is hard to repeat at any level.  Besides Cathedral playing in 6A, that is why the success factor isn't the perfect answer.

Also, btw.... only 1 move in from Brownsburg had D1 offers, and he didn't play the 2nd half of the season.  The other kid only has walk-on offers.  Just Sayin!  The Trojans D only had 3 kids with actual D1 offers, the record needs to be set straight on that.  The 2 that played in the state championship are CG kids.  

I think that Roncalli should get the Trojans on the schedule asap, before they rebuild.  Just like New Pal did, man that was a smart move by Ralph.  

Cathedral from a depth perspective is night and day better and more suited for a 6A run now than they were the first go around. Lost in 2OT to a pretty good Avon team in 15 out a couple starters and ran into a buzzsaw in Ben Davis in 16 both at the regional level. No shame in any of that. Yes it will be more difficult for Cathedral to navigate a 5 game playoff run playing teams 3-4x their enrollment, because just like every program in the state, each individual graduating class isn't built the same. 

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5 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Let's see if CG can continue that for 15 years. My prediction is once Cathedral gets to 6A that CG, WC, and even Carmel won't be able to keep up. Cathedral also benefits from many other factors like boosters, a youth league that spans the city, academics and extracurriculars which have always been top notch. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

CG has been doing it for the last 15 years and has only been getting better. As I mentioned in the above post, Cathedral is much better suited for a 6A run now than they were 5-6 years ago, but Cathedral's enrollment isn't going to magically double. Cathedral's 2022 class was extraordinarily special and had over 40 seniors with 30 some all contributing a ton the last two years. They stand to lose 17 starters and a bunch more on their two deep. This coming graduating class is the exception not the norm, and while I have zero doubts Cathedral can more than hold their own in 6A in any given year, I disagree that the Center Grove's, the Carmel's, etc can't or won't keep up. 

Assuming Cathedral does get bumped up to 6A, things will get interesting. CG, Cathedral, and Westfield in my opinion were easily the three best teams in the state last year and by a wide margin. All three teams lose a ton so there's likely to be more parity next year without a clear cut favorite like the last two years. Cathedral loses all but one defensive starter and their entire offensive line. I'm probably a little biased, but I do believe Cathedral returns the best collection of skill position players next year.

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49 minutes ago, StatQueen said:

Cathedral has already had a chance in 6A... didn't even make it to Lucas Oil.  I think the top HCC and MIC schools will always have 1 or 2 teams each year that can beat the Irish.  I think Cathedral belongs in 6A obviously and will at least have a shot every year.  The HCC and MIC schools will continue to take turns as they develop 1 or 2 classes that build into champions, just like Westfield did.  They'll reload, but it will take time to return to Lucas Oil.  That is why what CG did the last 3 years was so out of the norm.  It will take Roncalli time to develop to get back as well.  It is hard to repeat at any level.  Besides Cathedral playing in 6A, that is why the success factor isn't the perfect answer. 

Nope Cathedral didn't make it to Lucas Oil in 6A. In 2015 they beat Lawrence Central and Lawrence North to win Sectionals and lost in 2 OT's to Avon 37-34 (the same Avon team that lost in 2 OT's to CG 35-34), CG beat Cathedral in week 9 of 2015 by a score of 7-0 (CG went on to beat Penn 28-16 in 2015 for a State Championship). In 2016 Cathedral defeated Lawrence North and Lawrence Central in OT to win Sectionals and lost to Ben Davis in Regionals 51-21 (that was the younger version BD that ended up going 14-0 alking over everyone in 2017). BD lost to CG in Semi-State 42-22 (CG eventually lost to Carmel in State game 16-13 in OT). Pretty much made it to where Roncalli did this year in 4A. So yes they were competitive, the reason they didn't stay up in 6A is because they did not earn enough points at the time (this has since changed).

As for Center Grove it hasn't just been the last 3 years. This really has been a run from 2011. Yes they had a 6-6 year in that time and there were the 2 buzzsaw years of dominant Warren Central and dominant Ben Davis. Honestly though CG has been the cream of the crop in 6A for several years. 5 State Championship appearances since 2011. so 5 out of the last 10 years they have been in Championship game. Coach Moore has done a phenomenal job making them the hunted instead of the hunters.

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Don't see a thread on the announcers team , my thoughts  on the finals were I am tired of hearing  Greg raketssraw  say 'uindy'  every game I hear him call he somehow  draws up a link to uindy so he can talk about his days in college???? He made a reference to arena football during one of his calls last weekend. ...  yep arena football   I really felt like he was digging deep for things to say.  I liked him years ago but listening to him recently was uneventful  for me so to speak..... 

 

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21 hours ago, Coach Masters said:

Pete played at MV his frosh and soph year. He played junior and senior year at Cathedral. He never sat out and graduated with his normal class. 

Did he play any varsity his sophomore year at MV? It could affect the willingness of MV to sign off. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/28/2021 at 9:45 PM, Grover said:

Fair enough on Caden.  He was doing what he was instructed to do within the framework of the team.  He did it very well.  He has other tools such as swimming that he doesn't use.  But he has them. 

Caden swimming at practice for the All American game Saturday. 
 

 

 

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On 11/30/2021 at 11:39 AM, MICFan34 said:

I mean Brownsburg has been Transfer U the last several years so I'm sure the Brownsburg AD did sign off. It'd be a bad look when you accept a plethora of transfers but don't sign off on players transferring to another program. 

Brownsburg has a history of not signing off, if the player doesn’t move.  Happened to a kid for us last year.  He had to sit 365 days before eligible.  But yes, they don’t mind accepting transfers!

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