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Thoughts about the 6 games in the State Finals


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18 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

The HCC’s #2 was blown out (when it mattered) by the MIC’s #5.

The HCC’s #2 just won its first sectional for the first time in almost 30 years.

Closed the gap? Please.

Did you read what the Brownsburg coach said after that BD game? Basically he said it was hard to beat a team that had three weeks to prepare. Obviously this was a knock on BD having no competition in their sectional and didn't have to prepare like Brownsburg did in their sectional. Now that was no excuse for Brownsburg to lay an egg in that game, but remember, the "Burg handled BD in their regular season game. Yes, the gap has closed between the two conferences. I know this is a football board, but you'd be hard pressed to find a conference that is better overall in total boys and girls sports than the HCC. Throw out Carmel, and it's not even close. It would be very interesting if HSE had not split off into two high schools 15 years ago. Now you'd be talking about a school larger than Carmel with the combined talent of HSE and Fishers. 

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22 hours ago, temptation said:

You have been in denial of the HCC’s closing of the gap from day one.

The champion of the HCC just took the nation’s #7 team down to the wire last night.

Its happening.

CG coach Moore said right after the game that Westfield played CG tougher than any other school had during their current 28 game win streak. I'd think he knows what he's talking about. 

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19 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

CG coach Moore said right after the game that Westfield played CG tougher than any other school had during their current 28 game win streak. I'd think he knows what he's talking about. 

So one game outcome equates to closing the game in an otherwise 15-20 year conference domination? That isn't how it works.

No doubt that certain members of the HCC have raised their football profiles, but the HCC is nowhere close to the MIC.

When one 6A title, let alone 5,6,7 in a row, before we can legitimately have this conversation. 

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42 minutes ago, fartfry18 said:

https://www.ihsaatv.org/?B=327676

I invite you to fast forward to -1:25:30

Do you want to know how hard HS football 5 person officiating is. This play is 100% a prime example. BJ is keying/responsible for the 2 receivers at the bottom of the screen since this is a trips formation (notice how he is shaded toward those receivers). The wing at the bottom of the screen then would have the 3rd receiver in. But he's keying off the right tackle to read run or pass so he knows whether to keep his focus on that receiver or the blocking of the tackle.

The official at the top of the screen is responsible for the receiver at the top of the screen, the RB on his side and the left tackle. He too is keying off the left tackle for run vs pass. This left tackle determines where his eyes need to go next. In this play. The left tackle fires out like a run, you can't see that wing's eyes but his mechanics are then to keep an eye on that tackle for holding (since it looks like a run). It's fuzzy when you can see the top wings head come onto the screen but, it looks like he is looking at the tackle at the time of the grab. The BJ is focused on the opposite side of the field, so he probably doesn't see the grab either. This is just a black hole in 5 person officiating. 

So when @Bobref says the crew thought the ball was just past the receiver at the time of the grab, the HL eyes got to the receiver about this time in the play and he admits he saw the grab, but the eyes were focused where they were supposed to be focused (the tackle) so when they transitioned to the receiver, the ball was probably just wizzing past the receiver. 

Here is what the manual says word for word:

6. Initial keys are as follows:
a. B has the widest receiver on the strong side of the formation. Note: if players are “stacked” one behind the other, the player closest to the line of scrimmage is considered
to be wider.
b. The wing official on the strong side of the formation has the inside receiver(s) on that side.
c. The wing official on the weak side of the formation has any receivers on that side.
d. If the strong side of the formation has three eligible receivers (“trips”), then B takes the two widest receivers on the strong side, and the wing on the strong side takes the inside receiver.
e. Wing officials always key on receivers out of the backfield who came from inside the tackles toward them.

After the snap, observe your keys and read the near tackle to determine run or pass. Hold the line of scrimmage until the ball carrier crosses it.
Watch the initial charge of linemen.
Watch blocking on the back side on runs to the opposite side of the field.

Edited by Moshiner1345
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5 minutes ago, Moshiner1345 said:

Do you want to know how hard HS football 5 person officiating is. This play is 100% a prime example. BJ is keying/responsible for the 2 receivers at the bottom of the screen since this is a trips formation (notice how he is shaded toward those receivers). The wing at the bottom of the screen then would have the 3rd receiver in. But he's keying off the right tackle to read run or pass so he knows whether to keep his focus on that receiver or the blocking of the tackle.

The official at the top of the screen is responsible for the receiver at the top of the screen, the RB on his side and the left tackle. He too is keying off the left tackle for run vs pass. This left tackle determines where his eyes need to go next. In this play. The left tackle fires out like a run, you can't see that wing's eyes but his mechanics are then to keep an eye on that tackle for holding (since it looks like a run). It's fuzzy when you can see the top wings head come onto the screen but, it looks like he is looking at the tackle at the time of the grab. The BJ is focused on the opposite side of the field, so he probably doesn't see the grab either. This is just a black hole in 5 person officiating. 

So when @Bobref says the crew thought the ball was just past the receiver at the time of the grab, the HL eyes got to the receiver about this time in the play and he admits he saw the grab, but the eyes were focused where they were supposed to be focused (the tackle) so when they transitioned to the receiver, the ball was probably just wizzing past the receiver. 

Here is what the manual says word for word:

6. Initial keys are as follows:
a. B has the widest receiver on the strong side of the formation. Note: if players are “stacked” one behind the other, the player closest to the line of scrimmage is considered
to be wider.
b. The wing official on the strong side of the formation has the inside receiver(s) on that side.
c. The wing official on the weak side of the formation has any receivers on that side.
d. If the strong side of the formation has three eligible receivers (“trips”), then B takes the two widest receivers on the strong side, and the wing on the strong side takes the inside receiver.
e. Wing officials always key on receivers out of the backfield who came from inside the tackles toward them.

After the snap, observe your keys and read the near tackle to determine run or pass. Hold the line of scrimmage until the ball carrier crosses it.
Watch the initial charge of linemen.
Watch blocking on the back side on runs to the opposite side of the field.

Did you watch the clip? 

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42 minutes ago, Moshiner1345 said:

Do you want to know how hard HS football 5 person officiating is. This play is 100% a prime example. BJ is keying/responsible for the 2 receivers at the bottom of the screen since this is a trips formation (notice how he is shaded toward those receivers). The wing at the bottom of the screen then would have the 3rd receiver in. But he's keying off the right tackle to read run or pass so he knows whether to keep his focus on that receiver or the blocking of the tackle.

The official at the top of the screen is responsible for the receiver at the top of the screen, the RB on his side and the left tackle. He too is keying off the left tackle for run vs pass. This left tackle determines where his eyes need to go next. In this play. The left tackle fires out like a run, you can't see that wing's eyes but his mechanics are then to keep an eye on that tackle for holding (since it looks like a run). It's fuzzy when you can see the top wings head come onto the screen but, it looks like he is looking at the tackle at the time of the grab. The BJ is focused on the opposite side of the field, so he probably doesn't see the grab either. This is just a black hole in 5 person officiating. 

So when @Bobref says the crew thought the ball was just past the receiver at the time of the grab, the HL eyes got to the receiver about this time in the play and he admits he saw the grab, but the eyes were focused where they were supposed to be focused (the tackle) so when they transitioned to the receiver, the ball was probably just wizzing past the receiver. 

Here is what the manual says word for word:

6. Initial keys are as follows:
a. B has the widest receiver on the strong side of the formation. Note: if players are “stacked” one behind the other, the player closest to the line of scrimmage is considered
to be wider.
b. The wing official on the strong side of the formation has the inside receiver(s) on that side.
c. The wing official on the weak side of the formation has any receivers on that side.
d. If the strong side of the formation has three eligible receivers (“trips”), then B takes the two widest receivers on the strong side, and the wing on the strong side takes the inside receiver.
e. Wing officials always key on receivers out of the backfield who came from inside the tackles toward them.

After the snap, observe your keys and read the near tackle to determine run or pass. Hold the line of scrimmage until the ball carrier crosses it.
Watch the initial charge of linemen.
Watch blocking on the back side on runs to the opposite side of the field.

Hard to tell from the clip if the grab occurred before or after the pass was thrown. 

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1 hour ago, fartfry18 said:

Did you watch the clip? 

Yes, that's why I provided a very lengthy description of what the officials are taught to do (keys at the snap then transitioning of their eyes as the play evolves) and how it related to this specific play. The left guard firing out as a run block (in this specific play) is why this official may have transitioned his eyes to the receiver late, thus missing the grab.

It's a foul in my opinion, I was merely trying to provide all readers with an insight as to why this foul may be missed. It's a coverage nightmare given the left tackle fires out as a run blocker. If he retreats to pass block (steps backwards behind the LOS), then the R would pick him up as a blocker and the HL would have transitioned his eyes to the WR much quicker and possibly seen the grab in it's entirety.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Grover said:

Human nature has fans focusing on the mistakes that go against them rather than vice versa.  Neither side tends to recognize the good calls.  Without thinking too hard about it there are a couple that come to mind -- one for/against each team.  Hauser appeared to catch the ball in-bounds but was signaled out.  I don't think CG had possession of the ball on the alternate possession rule.   Do you remember those plays and do you have any thoughts to share about the calls?

 

Grover, I agree with both your points about calls. I struggle with the hold call away from the ball on the 2nd half kickoff return that negated a beautiful return for a score.  Could have been a back breaker.  Block was nowhere near the runner.  A single flag.  Went back and watched it repeatedly on the big screen.  Not much there at all......a huge call.

Not trying to be super negative....officials have a tough, tough job....and at the end of the day, teams make way more mistakes that the officials ever do.  Those were the ones that stood out to me in an overall well officiated game.

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1 hour ago, fartfry18 said:

Another point about this, if the official looked up and sees at all the defender grabbing the receiver, its PI. There is no "it was whizzing by" as there is no uncatchable call in hsfb. 

Oh, God! Now I understand! You’re one of those!

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I don’t have much to add to @Moshiner1345’s insightful analysis of the play from an official’s standpoint. I’ll just reiterate that, regardless of how you interpret the slo mo and replay views, I would never fault that official’s judgment on a play like this, regardless of whether - with the benefit of technology - I thought it was the correct call or not. 

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7 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

So one game outcome equates to closing the game in an otherwise 15-20 year conference domination? That isn't how it works.

No doubt that certain members of the HCC have raised their football profiles, but the HCC is nowhere close to the MIC.

When one 6A title, let alone 5,6,7 in a row, before we can legitimately have this conversation. 

Look at the full body of work in terms of head to head the past two seasons.

The MIC is king at the top but at nearly every other position you can make the case for the HCC.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

Look at the full body of work in terms of head to head the past two seasons.

The MIC is king at the top but at nearly every other position you can make the case for the HCC.

FB16 just feels out of touch since his Irish are independent and he has no conference to brag about.

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7 hours ago, Staxawax said:

FB16 just feels out of touch since his Irish are independent and he has no conference to brag about.

The scary thing is now that Cathedral realizes it will be competing in 5A/6A for the foreseeable future, they are going to make adjustments. Every school in Marion and the "donut" counties should be prepared given open enrollment and Cathedral's resources as a private (not parochial) school.

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2 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

The scary thing is now that Cathedral realizes it will be competing in 5A/6A for the foreseeable future, they are going to make adjustments. Every school in Marion and the "donut" counties should be prepared given open enrollment and Cathedral's resources as a private (not parochial) school.

Perhaps an unintended consequence of SF?  As you point out, despite the typical discussion of "recruitment," parochial schools have a decent amount of self-restrictions placed on them; especially between themselves.  In a sense, with open-enrollment across the state, a school like Cathedral might be just the first in the "arms race" category to climb the ladder.  While the focus is on a school like Cathedral, there are certainly some public schools out there that look like Cathedral from an SES and resource standpoint that may well be in a position to see a more permanent move upward too.  As an example, a school like CG has under 20% FRL.  Granted, they played Westfield which is even lower at around 16% FRL, but CG passed through 64% FRL Ben Davis and Westfield passed through 61% Merrillville en route to LOS.

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3 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

The scary thing is now that Cathedral realizes it will be competing in 5A/6A for the foreseeable future, they are going to make adjustments. Every school in Marion and the "donut" counties should be prepared given open enrollment and Cathedral's resources as a private (not parochial) school.

Center Grove was "blessed" with not one, but TWO, D1 transfers this offseason as one year rentals. One is committed to a school that is likely going to be in the CFB playoffs and the other to an ACC school. Everybody is taking advantage of open-enrollment. Cathedral is hurt more than they are helped by open-enrollment. Prior to open-enrollment you played within your district or you ponied up to go to a private school. Today, you can be the #1 rated QB in the nation living in Avon where your older brother plays football while playing Brownsburg or you can play at Brownsburg for 3 years and transfer to Center Grove for your senior season. 

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28 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Center Grove was "blessed" with not one, but TWO, D1 transfers this offseason as one year rentals. One is committed to a school that is likely going to be in the CFB playoffs and the other to an ACC school. Everybody is taking advantage of open-enrollment. Cathedral is hurt more than they are helped by open-enrollment. Prior to open-enrollment you played within your district or you ponied up to go to a private school. Today, you can be the #1 rated QB in the nation living in Avon where your older brother plays football while playing Brownsburg or you can play at Brownsburg for 3 years and transfer to Center Grove for your senior season. 

One of those kids only played 3 and a half games. So really after game 4 he was not used at all.

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18 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

One of those kids only played 3 and a half games. So really after game 4 he was not used at all.

Does it really matter that he got hurt? What is the reaction if Biddings and/or Carroll showed up to Cathedral for their senior year? There isn't a chance in hell the IHSAA is giving them immediate varsity eligibility and this board would have a 40 page thread on how Cathedral "cheats". This happens at public schools all the time and it's completely swept under the rug. 

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13 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Does it really matter that he got hurt? What is the reaction if Biddings and/or Carroll showed up to Cathedral for their senior year? There isn't a chance in hell the IHSAA is giving them immediate varsity eligibility and this board would have a 40 page thread on how Cathedral "cheats". This happens at public schools all the time and it's completely swept under the rug. 

I didn't say Cathedral or anybody cheated. I was just stating a kid did not play after game 4. 

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16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Does it really matter that he got hurt? What is the reaction if Biddings and/or Carroll showed up to Cathedral for their senior year? There isn't a chance in hell the IHSAA is giving them immediate varsity eligibility and this board would have a 40 page thread on how Cathedral "cheats". This happens at public schools all the time and it's completely swept under the rug. 

There is also quite a bit of difference to me when a kid actually moves into a district rather than driving and commuting to a school.

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19 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

I didn't say Cathedral or anybody cheated. I was just stating a kid did not play after game 4. 

I never said that you specifically stated Cathedral cheated. But I've heard for over a decade that Cathedral doesn't "play by the same rules" because they don't have established boundaries. What do you call two D1 transfers from the West side of Indy? 

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19 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Center Grove was "blessed" with not one, but TWO, D1 transfers this offseason as one year rentals. One is committed to a school that is likely going to be in the CFB playoffs and the other to an ACC school. Everybody is taking advantage of open-enrollment. Cathedral is hurt more than they are helped by open-enrollment. Prior to open-enrollment you played within your district or you ponied up to go to a private school. Today, you can be the #1 rated QB in the nation living in Avon where your older brother plays football while playing Brownsburg or you can play at Brownsburg for 3 years and transfer to Center Grove for your senior season. 

I agree open enrollment hasn't really benefitted Cathedral, but I don't know that its really hurt you much either.  Cathedral has an outstanding recruiting program, and I don't mean that description to be taken in a negatively.  They have to recruit students to keep the doors open as a private school, and they do an excellent job of marketing their school to prospective students across the city.  Cathedral's roster has as much talent as anyone in 6A, and they are going to have no problem competing in that class, as we saw in their results vs. those schools over the last few years.  But I do agree open enrollment has not been a benefit to Cathedral in any way.

Chatard on the other hand has done a very poor job in my opinion.  Two schools going in opposite directions unfortunately.  

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18 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

There is also quite a bit of difference to me when a kid actually moves into a district rather than driving and commuting to a school.

Are we naive to think either transfer wasn't athletically motivated? Because that's the no-no in the eyes of the IHSAA.  

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8 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I never said that you specifically stated Cathedral cheated. But I've heard for over a decade that Cathedral doesn't "play by the same rules" because they don't have established boundaries. What do you call two D1 transfers from the West side of Indy? 

Move-ins

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