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Declining Numbers Impacting Competitive Balance


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2 hours ago, HHF said:

 

Do we really need to have a death to prove that massive roster variances are dangerous?

Given this argument, we really shouldn't be playing football at all given all of the things that could go wrong and actually DO go wrong that we have lots more data on.

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4 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Given this argument, we really shouldn't be playing football at all given all of the things that could go wrong and actually DO go wrong that we have lots more data on.

Yep.  As I have opined before competitive tackle football should only be played by adults, i.e. those individuals 18 years or older.

 

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2 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Given this argument, we really shouldn't be playing football at all given all of the things that could go wrong and actually DO go wrong that we have lots more data on.

Im surprised to hear you say that.  I've been here since 2004.  I've read countless threads on hundreds of different high schools throughout the state.  Many of those threads dealt with low numbers, how teams showed up to games, including playoff games, with 15 or fewer players.  Many Indy PPs have faced off against IPS with extremely low numbers over the years.  I really thought this was generally understood by those who have been around here for a while.  

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16 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Thanks.....the last link is not working though. I am curious about the 149 schools without athletic training services though. My thinking is the insurance providers would require them for schools they cover. 

The issue about concussions in football, although the article mentioned is sports in general, is much different than concussions in football caused by mismatched team sizes. 

The two teams mentioned in that first paragraph, Putnam City and Norman are both 6A schools and rank in the top dozen teams in a state that has 332 football teams, including 8-man teams, in a state that's about 2/3 the size of Indiana.  These schools would be equivalent to the top 5A schools in Indiana clocking in at roughly 2,000-2,100 students each. Norman is the 13th largest school in the state and boasts some 75+ kids on the numbered roster.  Putnam City is the 14th largest school in the state and boasts 60+ on the numbered roster with another 20+ listed unnumbered.  Putnam City schools actually consists of three different 6A schools Putnam City, Putnam City West, and Putnam City North.  West and North are classified as 6A-II with around 1,500 - 1,700 students each.  West is the 19th largest school in the state and North is the 25th largest school. 

As for you question about training services, don't have a direct answer on that one.  Coaches that have received their coaching certifications from the state also must obtain the medical certification from a licensed athletic trainer or from courses from an accredited college or university.  Additional info pertaining to Oklahoma high school sports and concussions can be found below:

http://www.ossaa.net/docs/2021-22/OSSAAInfo/MF_2021-22_Rules.pdf

http://www.ossaa.com/SportsMedicine.aspx

 

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48 minutes ago, HHF said:

Im surprised to hear you say that.  I've been here since 2004.  I've read countless threads on hundreds of different high schools throughout the state.  Many of those threads dealt with low numbers, how teams showed up to games, including playoff games, with 15 or fewer players.  Many Indy PPs have faced off against IPS with extremely low numbers over the years.  I really thought this was generally understood by those who have been around here for a while.  

My statement wasn't about low numbers, but instead about the idea that there are so many things that CAN go wrong in football, it's a wonder that we play it at all.  If we do, then there is a risk component that has been weighed in.  Without seeing exact numbers, I'd strongly suspect that more kids have died in Indiana and across the country from heat-related items in football than by mismatched team sizes on the field on Friday night.  There's a really easy fix for that that involves moving the season back into late-September or October even, but we don't do that for some reason. 

Not to be disrespectful or morbid to those who may have experienced death of a kid, but like you, I've been around GID for a while too ... at least a decade+.  I've seen more posting about deaths of football players from being shot or dying in car wrecks riding with their classmates on the weekends than I've ever seen about in a game ... regardless of the size of a team they were playing.  I've seen postings about deaths of players from heat-related items or in practice from heart arrhythmia, but again that's not tied to opponents' numbers. 

The original premise of this whole thread was about minimum numbers to compete and then safety was thrown in to try to make the case.  I didn't buy in to the arbitrary numbers and, while concussion is certainly a serious issue, I'm not seeing evidence that teams with lower numbers significant levels of concussion tied to playing bigger teams.  Case in point, the Oklahoma concussion article referenced the equivalent of four of the largest 25 schools in the state of Oklahoma.  The case can't possibly be made that somehow the 12 largest school in the state boasting a roster of 70 plus makes the case for limiting team ability to play in a season based on the the idea that you need at least 40 to play 5A ball.

 

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3 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Please don't fall into the category of not being able to distinguish between the two. I don't think I could possibly set the bar any lower for you as is. 

 

Thank you for making my point.....after all, you are the smartest guy on GID.

You have serious issues dude....you are so ate up with not measuring up, it forces you to strike at people.  But only behind a keyboard is my guess.

SMH

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20 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Thank you for making my point.....after all, you are the smartest guy on GID.

You have serious issues dude....you are so ate up with not measuring up, it forces you to strike at people.  But only behind a keyboard is my guess.

SMH

So you agree with me? You can't tell the difference between forming an opinion and making a claim without any supporting data or evidence? Thanks for playing I guess? 

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1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

So you agree with me? You can't tell the difference between forming an opinion and making a claim without any supporting data or evidence? Thanks for playing I guess? 

People do it all the time on GID.  Learn to ignore it if it bothers you.  Nobody if forcing you to respond in the manner that you do.  That is 100% under your control. 

And yes...I do understand the difference.  No need to be condescending.  

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20 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

People do it all the time on GID.  Learn to ignore it if it bothers you.  Nobody if forcing you to respond in the manner that you do.  That is 100% under your control. 

And yes...I do understand the difference.  No need to be condescending.  

So again, forgive me for calling someone out trying to control a narrative that doesn't exist. 

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5 hours ago, foxbat said:

My statement wasn't about low numbers, but instead about the idea that there are so many things that CAN go wrong in football, it's a wonder that we play it at all.  If we do, then there is a risk component that has been weighed in.  Without seeing exact numbers, I'd strongly suspect that more kids have died in Indiana and across the country from heat-related items in football than by mismatched team sizes on the field on Friday night.  There's a really easy fix for that that involves moving the season back into late-September or October even, but we don't do that for some reason. 

Not to be disrespectful or morbid to those who may have experienced death of a kid, but like you, I've been around GID for a while too ... at least a decade+.  I've seen more posting about deaths of football players from being shot or dying in car wrecks riding with their classmates on the weekends than I've ever seen about in a game ... regardless of the size of a team they were playing.  I've seen postings about deaths of players from heat-related items or in practice from heart arrhythmia, but again that's not tied to opponents' numbers. 

The original premise of this whole thread was about minimum numbers to compete and then safety was thrown in to try to make the case.  I didn't buy in to the arbitrary numbers and, while concussion is certainly a serious issue, I'm not seeing evidence that teams with lower numbers significant levels of concussion tied to playing bigger teams.  Case in point, the Oklahoma concussion article referenced the equivalent of four of the largest 25 schools in the state of Oklahoma.  The case can't possibly be made that somehow the 12 largest school in the state boasting a roster of 70 plus makes the case for limiting team ability to play in a season based on the the idea that you need at least 40 to play 5A ball.

 

One thing you have not accounted for is that we are currently experiencing an era of declining participation.  I am hopeful that you will at least concur on this obvious point.  Another contributing factor is Covid, which has impacted small rural communities more than it has large suburban areas with greater resources.  Small schools are more inclined to be negatively impacted by the combination of these mitigating factors.  Its pretty rare that we hear of big roster discrepancies in the larger classes (4a, 5a, 6a)  Its fairly common that this occurs in the smaller classes, and when you combine a historically bad small school program with declining participation and Covid related setbacks, you have a recipe for disaster.  Bishop Noll was forced into self contraction after several humiliating seasons and a rash of serious injuries.  The program has returned to varsity play and is in what I would describe as recovery mode.  The Noll program is 3-56 since 2014.  Read the attached story on the Noll program and its premise goes to the very core of this issue we are discussing.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/sports/ct-ptb-mike-hutton-column-st-1012-20171011-story.html

4 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

So again, forgive me for calling someone out trying to control a narrative that doesn't exist. 

Tell Wayne Racine it doesnt exist

https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/sports/ct-ptb-mike-hutton-column-st-1012-20171011-story.html

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8 minutes ago, HHF said:

One thing you have not accounted for is that we are currently experiencing an era of declining participation.  I am hopeful that you will at least concur on this obvious point.  Another contributing factor is Covid, which has impacted small rural communities more than it has large suburban areas with greater resources.  Small schools are more inclined to be negatively impacted by the combination of these mitigating factors.  Its pretty rare that we hear of big roster discrepancies in the larger classes (4a, 5a, 6a)  Its fairly common that this occurs in the smaller classes, and when you combine a historically bad small school program with declining participation and Covid related setbacks, you have a recipe for disaster.  Bishop Noll was forced into self contraction after several humiliating seasons and a rash of serious injuries.  The program has returned to varsity play and is in what I would describe as recovery mode.  The Noll program is 3-56 since 2014.  Read the attached story on the Noll program and its premise goes to the very core of this issue we are discussing.

 

Just curious as to what this has to do with my post on the issue of deaths due to mismatched teams and the fact that there are more stories, right here on GID ... following your lead ... about deaths from everything else EXCEPT mismatched teams. 

One thing of interest that I did see from the 2017 article was "Over the arc of time, since the NFSHS started tracking participation, boys basketball — not football — has dropped dramatically. There are about half as many boys basketball players in Indiana today (11,000) as there were in 1969. In football, that year, there were 27,569. No one I know is concerned about basketball going away."

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4 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Just curious as to what this has to do with my post on the issue of deaths due to mismatched teams and the fact that there are more stories, right here on GID ... following your lead ... about deaths from everything else EXCEPT mismatched teams. 

One thing of interest that I did see from the 2017 article was "Over the arc of time, since the NFSHS started tracking participation, boys basketball — not football — has dropped dramatically. There are about half as many boys basketball players in Indiana today (11,000) as there were in 1969. In football, that year, there were 27,569. No one I know is concerned about basketball going away."

Nobody is watching.  I am.  Small school football is heading into some perilous times in Indiana.  You have fewer and fewer schools controlling the narrative.  For every Eastbrook there are 10 Edinburghs.  Not a healthy trend.  

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On 12/12/2021 at 11:18 PM, HHF said:

 

  This new generation of school administrators are not football fanatics like their predecessors were.  Most will look at football as just another choice on the athletic menu, not a sport that defines the identity of their respective school.  

Maybe you should add this as a reason for lower numbers.  

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One reason that hasn't been talked about is the lack of quality coaching, especially in lower income urban schools.

I have seen coaches desperate to find coaches, especially at the lower levels.  Some haven't even played football.  I have seen no teaching on how to block or tackle.  

This is the real issue, training of our lower level coaches.  If the school can't find qualified coaches, then they should suspend their program until the get qualified coaches.

That is the elephant in the room.

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1 hour ago, LaSalle Lions 1976 said:

One reason that hasn't been talked about is the lack of quality coaching, especially in lower income urban schools.

I have seen coaches desperate to find coaches, especially at the lower levels.  Some haven't even played football.  I have seen no teaching on how to block or tackle.  

This is the real issue, training of our lower level coaches.  If the school can't find qualified coaches, then they should suspend their program until the get qualified coaches.

That is the elephant in the room.

We are seeing this on the varsity level as well.  Long time experienced head coaches and assistants are leaving and many replaced by ultra low experienced, or even worse, lay coaches who are not even in the building .  This contributes to chronic staff turnover, which is on the list of top reasons for contraction.  

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