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6a is out of reach


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Over the course of 6a's nine year existence, all state titles have been brought home by the same four teams..........Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, and Center Grove. Three of those teams just happen to rank 1, 2, and 3 in terms of enrollment. It's not an equal playing field. The IHSAA knows it. The AD's know it. The coaches know it. The players know it. And the fans know it. Gone are the days of the northeast, the northwest, and the southern part of the state putting their footprint on the state title at the highest level. It's been 22 years since anyone outside of Indianapolis has brought home the hardware. That was Penn in 2000. They also did it in '97, '96, '95, and '83. Bloomington South did it in '98 & '93. Snider did it in '92. Before the year 2001, big boy state titles were common place in other areas of the state. But damn, that was over two decades ago. Things are different now, and something needs to be done.

Is it a matter of the IHSAA stepping in and splitting 6a into two divisions? Or is it a matter of programs around the state stepping up their game and doing what they need to do to "get the job done." The fair thing to do would be to split into two 16 team divisions as HHF suggested in another post. Since that probably won't happen, I guess we'll have to take the "get better or get used to it approach." 

The SAC knows what it needs to do to amp up their level of play and get Carroll and Homestead to a 6a state title game. It's also a matter of getting Snider back there. It's pretty simple. Restructure the conference and give those three teams an opportunity to taste Central Indiana football before running into that wall when the tournament starts. 

Does the Region have a plan in place? What about Southern Indiana? Will they implement a plan? Or will they just settle for the status quo like the SAC does? 

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Merrillville’s “grab a transfer” method made things interesting but even that fell on its face.

This has been stated repeatedly on this very forum and speaks to this topic.  The commitment that the central Indiana  mega schools pour into football is unmatched by any other area of the state.  You combine that with enrollment advantages and you have the results you speak of.

A Fort Wayne/SAC all-star team maybe?

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17 minutes ago, temptation said:

A Fort Wayne/SAC all-star team maybe?

I thought of that myself. But that would be unfair to Indianapolis. No one would want the mercy rule in play by halftime of the 6a state championship. 

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4 minutes ago, BTF said:

Over the course of 6a's nine year existence, all state titles have been brought home by the same four teams..........Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, and Center Grove. Three of those teams just happen to rank 1, 2, and 3 in terms of enrollment. It's not an equal playing field. The IHSAA knows it. The AD's know it. The coaches know it. The players know it. And the fans know it. Gone are the days of the northeast, the northwest, and the southern part of the state putting their footprint on the state title at the highest level. It's been 22 years since anyone outside of Indianapolis has brought home the hardware. That was Penn in 2000. They also did it in '97, '96, '95, and '83. Bloomington South did it in '98 & '93. Snider did it in '92. Before the year 2001, big boy state titles were common place in other areas of the state. But damn, that was over two decades ago. Things are different now, and something needs to be done.

Is it a matter of the IHSAA stepping in and splitting 6a into two divisions? Or is it a matter of programs around the state stepping up their game and doing what they need to do to "get the job done." The fair thing to do would be to split into two 16 team divisions as HHF suggested in another post. Since that probably won't happen, I guess we'll have to take the "get better or get used to it approach." 

The SAC knows what it needs to do to amp up their level of play and get Carroll and Homestead to a 6a state title game. It's also a matter of getting Snider back there. It's pretty simple. Restructure the conference and give those three teams an opportunity to taste Central Indiana football before running into that wall when the tournament starts. 

Does the Region have a plan in place? What about Southern Indiana? Will they implement a plan? Or will they just settle for the status quo like the SAC does? 

I guess the question is really whether we are talking areas or programs.  In some threads, I hear that Ben Davis and Warren Central will never be as good as they ever were and are pretty much just waiting to shuffle off this mortal coil and that may have been accelerated by the recent departure of Carmel and Center Grove.  If that's true and not clickbait hyperbole, then we are talking a couple of programs ... Carmel and Center Grove.  So it's an issue that wouldn't be solved by an Indy vs. non-Indy type of approach.

As you allude to, to some extent, conferences may have a play in things.  Many conferences are more geographic than class or competitive.  For all of the grief given to the MIC, there's something to be said for playing a lot of 6A ball all season long as a prelude to mid-fall.  Ultimately, when you look at those four winners, they are all MIC teams.  Districts would be an interesting step toward increasing that idea of "like play" throughout the season.  Right now, schools like Jeff and Harrison are at a disadvantage in terms of ability to step up competition.  They were in the HCC, but got booted.  They are back in the NCC and are basically the largest fish in a medium-sized pond.  They share 6A status with Tech, but that's about as far as that comparison goes.  Harrison has played Roncalli before and at least played Westfield every year for the last two decades, but that will cease next season with the MIC/HCC shakeup.  Harrison will pick up 3A West Lafayette, but would probably be better off squaring off against Westlake.  Jeff will at least get 5A Cathedral next year, but outside of the Irish and Harrison, its only real competition is likely to be 5A Kokomo.  I'm not sure where Jeff and Harrison could go in terms of picking up competition given that they aren't welcome in the HCC and only get two non-conference opponents are year based on the size of the NCC.  Not sure if they would be welcome in the MIC and not sure who else "welcomes" them in that has substantial 6A bodies. 

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I would love to see Jeff and Harrison play an HCC type schedule. No doubt it would amp up their level of play. There's some pretty darn good football in Lafayette. They're just limited by their competition as you suggest. 

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3 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I guess the question is really whether we are talking areas or programs.  In some threads, I hear that Ben Davis and Warren Central will never be as good as they ever were and are pretty much just waiting to shuffle off this mortal coil and that may have been accelerated by the recent departure of Carmel and Center Grove.  If that's true and not clickbait hyperbole, then we are talking a couple of programs ... Carmel and Center Grove.  So it's an issue that wouldn't be solved by an Indy vs. non-Indy type of approach.

As you allude to, to some extent, conferences may have a play in things.  Many conferences are more geographic than class or competitive.  For all of the grief given to the MIC, there's something to be said for playing a lot of 6A ball all season long as a prelude to mid-fall.  Ultimately, when you look at those four winners, they are all MIC teams.  Districts would be an interesting step toward increasing that idea of "like play" throughout the season.  Right now, schools like Jeff and Harrison are at a disadvantage in terms of ability to step up competition.  They were in the HCC, but got booted.  They are back in the NCC and are basically the largest fish in a medium-sized pond.  They share 6A status with Tech, but that's about as far as that comparison goes.  Harrison has played Roncalli before and at least played Westfield every year for the last two decades, but that will cease next season with the MIC/HCC shakeup.  Harrison will pick up 3A West Lafayette, but would probably be better off squaring off against Westlake.  Jeff will at least get 5A Cathedral next year, but outside of the Irish and Harrison, its only real competition is likely to be 5A Kokomo.  I'm not sure where Jeff and Harrison could go in terms of picking up competition given that they aren't welcome in the HCC and only get two non-conference opponents are year based on the size of the NCC.  Not sure if they would be welcome in the MIC and not sure who else "welcomes" them in that has substantial 6A bodies. 

Warren and BD will continue to be contenders based on enrollment and commitment to the sport.

Carmel and CG aren’t going anywhere.

But the dynamic of what is happening in the Indy suburbs makes it an even steeper hill than it’s ever been.

HSE, Westfield, Brownsburg, and Zionsville are growing and have waited their turn.  They’ve made the commitment that BD/Warren did three decades ago and now have the facilities and enrollment to do some serious damage.

Furthermore, Fishers, Franklin Central, and Whiteland will be key players in the next few years.

It used to just be a 2-4 team mountain that non central Indy schools had to climb.  It’s now at a half dozen and growing.

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12 minutes ago, BTF said:

I thought of that myself. But that would be unfair to Indianapolis. No one would want the mercy rule in play by halftime of the 6a state championship. 

Temp.............elaborate on your reaction. I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. An SAC all star team would be the equivalent of a high school with an enrollment of 17,000. Game over my friend. 

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Just now, BTF said:

Temp.............elaborate on your reaction. I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing. An SAC all star team would be the equivalent of a high school with an enrollment of 17,000. Game over my friend. 

Oh I’m agreeing.  I just like getting you off topic and fired up.  Happy holidays my man.

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1 minute ago, BTF said:

Lol, how long ago? Educate me. No time to look it up myself. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoosier_Crossroads_Conference

Quote

The conference started in 2000, as the West division of the Olympic Conference (Brownsburg, Hamilton Southeastern, Harrison, McCutcheon, and Noblesville) joined with two schools from the folding Rangeline Conference (Westfield and Zionsville) and one from the Mid-State Conference (Avon). Lafayette Jeff joined in 2004 from the North Central Conference, and Fishers joined upon reopening in 2006.

In December 2012, the Indianapolis-area schools met and voted to cut ties with the Tippecanoe County schools after the 2013-14 school year due to transportation costs, travel time, differences in school size and competitive balance.

Harrison and McCutcheon were founding members of the HCC, only to get the boot after 13-14 years.  Jefferson was only in for about a decade.

 

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Yet the last 2 years, CG and Westfield played for the 6A state championship.......

perhaps enrollment isn't the only variable in the success equation......

Perhaps the schools previously mentioned in this threas can study their formulas??

Edited by Bash Riprock
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1 minute ago, Bash Riprock said:

Yet the last 2 years, CG and Westfield played for the 6A state championship.......

perhaps enrollment isn't the only variable in the success equation......

Throw Westfield out of the equation. Many teams have made it the state finals. Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central (three largest schools in the state), and Center Grove (certainly not among the smaller 6a schools) are the only ones that win it. 

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5 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Yet the last 2 years, CG and Westfield played for the 6A state championship.......

perhaps enrollment isn't the only variable in the success equation......

Perhaps the schools previously mentioned in this threas can study their formulas??

Do I really have to go through this AGAIN?

What do the suburban schools with smaller 6A enrollments have in common?

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7 minutes ago, BTF said:

Throw Westfield out of the equation. Many teams have made it the state finals. Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central (three largest schools in the state), and Center Grove (certainly not among the smaller 6a schools) are the only ones that win it. 

I am not sure why you would throw Westfield out of the equation....considering they made it back to back through the Northern Region of the state quite easily.  CG is middle of the pack when it comes to 6A schools, and also made state appearances and won state with even smaller enrollments.  

To not study them would be foolish

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

Do I really have to go through this AGAIN?

What do the suburban schools with smaller 6A enrollments have in common?

Please don't.....it is NOT the only factor and repeating yourself with me is a colossal waste of your time.  

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3 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I am not sure why you would throw Westfield out of the equation....considering they made it back to back through the Northern Region of the state quite easily.  CG is middle of the pack when it comes to 6A schools, and also made state appearances and won state with even smaller enrollments.  

To not study them would be foolish

I'm just counting state championships. Snider's been there seven times, but only have credit for two. No one's studying them. I get what you are saying about Westfield, but to me, they aren't any different than any other team that has gotten there and failed. The same four teams win it every year. Sure, the Rocks might be better than three of them this year. But in any given year, one of those four teams will put together a team that will be better than anyone in the state. And enrollment has a lot to do with it. 

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5 minutes ago, BTF said:

I would love to see Jeff and Harrison play an HCC type schedule. No doubt it would amp up their level of play. There's some pretty darn good football in Lafayette. They're just limited by their competition as you suggest. 

Jeff and Harrison used to play HCC, but got booted out.  It was an interesting move and, perhaps maybe premature given when/where things could have progressed.  McCutcheon was a fairly competitive baseball program in the HCC.  The Mavs' girls just picked up a state title in volleyball and are probably expected to be in the top favorites to make that possible run again next season.  Harrison's baseball picked up a regional semi-final win this year.  Harrison's Cross Country teams, boys' and girls', have both picked up regional titles in the past couple of years.  Boys' golf has picked up sectionals in roughly 10 of the last dozen years.  Girls' golf picked up a sectional last year.  Boys' and girls' soccer just both picked up sectional titles this year.  Softball picked up a sectional last year.  Wresting has picked up a regional title for the last 9 years in a row.  Girls volleyball picked up a sectional this year.  Football had a sectional a couple of seasons ago and has dropped the past two season to Zionsville in the tourney.

For a long time, Jeff and Harrison struggled, but over the past 5-10 years have taken strides to build their programs.  The problem for them at this point is that they have definitely stepped up their game from where they were, but have hit somewhat of a wall for getting to that next level.  Short of an NCC shakeup or a major invite, I think they are probably landlocked from a conference perspective ... and tossing in that in the past, it used to be Harrison and McCutcheon joined at the hip because of the school corp, but now it's going to likely be Harrison and Jeff due to 6A status, that's going to make movements harder.

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17 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I am not sure why you would throw Westfield out of the equation....considering they made it back to back through the Northern Region of the state quite easily.  CG is middle of the pack when it comes to 6A schools, and also made state appearances and won state with even smaller enrollments.  

To not study them would be foolish

Please don't.....it is NOT the only factor and repeating yourself with me is a colossal waste of your time.  

Gotcha.  Never said it was the only factor though.  😉

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2 minutes ago, BTF said:

From an outsider's perspective, that's what I've observed. 

As a relatively new convert ... roughly the last five years or so ... I've been quite impressed with the various aspects that I've seen with the Harrison program.  I've been aware of the program for the better part of two decades and peripherally involved from a youth perspective having coached against their youth teams in baseball and football for quite a while.  My girls attend/attended Jeff, but were never really involved on the sports side, so I was less involved/aware there, but my boys have played Harrison football and baseball and tangentially soccer and I've been happy across the board with their activities and philosophy. 

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1 hour ago, foxbat said:

Jeff will at least get 5A Cathedral next year, but outside of the Irish and Harrison, its only real competition is likely to be 5A Kokomo.  I'm not sure where Jeff and Harrison could go in terms of picking up competition given that they aren't welcome in the HCC and only get two non-conference opponents are year based on the size of the NCC.  Not sure if they would be welcome in the MIC and not sure who else "welcomes" them in that has substantial 6A bodies. 

I saw Jeff is playing Michigan City next year. I’d say that’s some “real competition”. The Bronchos have really struggled with the Duneland’s top teams. 

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