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SAC/SIAC Isolating Themselves from Rest of the State


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While the 10 team conference model has solved all potential scheduling problems for its member schools, it has also created some unintended negative consequences.  

The two major negative consequences are as follows :

1. Lack of Non Conference Competition - This issue has been discussed at length on this forum.  By remaining local in Fort Wayne and Evansville, these two conferences at opposite corners of the state are shut off from the best programs in Indiana, which reside in Central Indiana.  

2. Media Isolation - with an abundance of local high school sports coverage, both conferences are highly provincial and wear blinders relative to what is going on in the rest of the state.  Still, both complain about an "Indy bias" and a lack of statewide coverage of their specific schools and conferences.

Resolution

The 10 school conference works well for both leagues.  They should either reduce their conference slate to a 7 or 8 game schedule and open up some datres for non con play, or go to a two division big school/small school format, also leaving open dates for non con play.  

The Big 6A schools in The SAC need to see high end Indy competition if they ever expect to advance beyond the local level.  The SIAC PPs continue to be well represented deep into the tournament, but its public schools are missing the boat.

The NCC and The Hoosier provide models for the SAC/SIAC to follow.

 

Edited by HHF
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The SIAC wanted to be 12 teams instead of 10 

it was going to be the additions of Vincennes Lincoln, Jasper, Gibson Southern, and Boonville.  Last minute Boonville backed out which meant that GS couldn’t join since the SIAC understandably wanted an even number joining for the sake of balance.  
 

they are more/less unintentionally isolated off….and frankly I’m not sure they can find a way to change that now because the aftermath of the SIAC caused the BIG 8 to dissolve and all the remaining teams besides Mt Carmel (Illinois) joined the PAC.

 

the results of all this moving are that PAC teams have 4 games they can freely schedule as they see fit. On top of that, Gibson Southern now can (And did) schedule a stronger SoS than what they could have if they had joined the SIAC…so chances are, SIAC is going to be closed off for a while

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1 hour ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

On top of that, Gibson Southern now can (And did) schedule a stronger SoS than what they could have if they had joined the SIAC…

How do you figure?  Had GS been in a twelve team conference GS still would have had 4 non conference games.  MD and Memorial would have been conference opponents in the SIAC small division.

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I think divisions could still work of 2 divisions of 5 teams. But, it would be way better if it was for 12 teams instead. Here is an idea that could or could not work for 12 teams: 

Week 1: non conference 

Week 2: non conference 

Weeks 3-7: Divisional Games 

Week 8: Protected rivalry games 

Week 9: SIAC Championship Game + Champions Week (Big Ten used this format last year)

For 10 teams currently,

Week 1: non conference 

Week 2: non conference 

Week 3: non conference 

Weeks 4-7: divisional games 

Week 8: Protected rivalry games

Week 9: SIAC Championship Game + Champions Week

 

Obviously, this is a big question if this format could work and what schools would agree with this format. As I don’t think there are no conferences that play an conference championship game in Indiana (could be wrong). But it’s an interesting proposal/concept, if the SIAC decides to expand to 12 teams or switch to divisions.

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14 minutes ago, TigerFan20 said:

I think divisions could still work of 2 divisions of 5 teams. But, it would be way better if it was for 12 teams instead. Here is an idea that could or could not work for 12 teams: 

Week 1: non conference 

Week 2: non conference 

Weeks 3-7: Divisional Games 

Week 8: Protected rivalry games 

Week 9: SIAC Championship Game + Champions Week (Big Ten used this format last year)

For 10 teams currently,

Week 1: non conference 

Week 2: non conference 

Week 3: non conference 

Weeks 4-7: divisional games 

Week 8: Protected rivalry games

Week 9: SIAC Championship Game + Champions Week

 

Obviously, this is a big question if this format could work and what schools would agree with this format. As I don’t think there are no conferences that play an conference championship game in Indiana (could be wrong). But it’s an interesting proposal/concept, if the SIAC decides to expand to 12 teams or switch to divisions.

The only schools that have the political clout to influence a change in the conference format are Jasper and Castle.  The rest of the schools in the league have everything they need to meet the needs of their football programs.  Jasper and Castle, because they are known statewide, could become unhappy being locked in to the 9 game round robin, same as Homestead and Carroll are in The SAC, and lobby hard for change.  

Edited by HHF
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1 hour ago, Alduflux said:

How do you figure?  Had GS been in a twelve team conference GS still would have had 4 non conference games.  MD and Memorial would have been conference opponents in the SIAC small division.

Because the opponents GS would schedule out of conference probably would have been PAC schools.  The likes of columbus north and new Albany probably wouldn’t have been available. 

part of the reason GS has been able to beef up their schedule is because the SIAC closed themselves off freeing up a number of opponents. 
 

maybe you’re right though…depending on how it would have worked out back then, it’s possible the schedule for GS would have been stronger than the current format 

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2 minutes ago, Screagle said:

New Albany?  Lol. They are traditionally a bad 5A school. Come on. 

Traditionally they are a .500 team. And this year they were a great team 

 

but that doesn’t even matter and isnt even my point.  Point is…SIAC being closed off has allowed GS to schedule some of the former SIAC opponents 

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On 12/31/2021 at 8:27 AM, HHF said:

The SAC need to see high end Indy competition if they ever expect to advance beyond the local level. 

Deep runs were commonplace for Snider through 2016. In 2017, they were one play from obliterating Carmel. The period of 2018 -2021 tells a different story though. Although Snider was down, Homestead and Carroll had some pretty high profile teams only to bow out to Indy in games that really weren't even close. Are the last four years just a phase or are they a trend? I'm leaning toward trend. The difference in my opinion is Westfield and Zionsville. Although neither is a 'johnny come lately', they've both brought their level of play up to an upper half 6a level. In the past, Carmel was the only team separating Fort Wayne from Lucas Oil.........and the occasional HSE & Fishers. Now you have Carmel, Westfield, Zionsville..............and still the occasional HSE & Fishers. More Indy teams are trending up versus down. And for that reason, I agree with your entire post. It's time for the SAC to see some Central Indiana competition. 

 

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As far as the SIAC, you have identified a football-only issue. And with regards to scheduling, 7 of the schools don’t even view it as a problem. 
 

The only way it changes is if Vincennes decides the ‘new’ Big PAC is a better fit or Jasper/Castle decides to move towards Bedford and Bloomington. 

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20 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

As far as the SIAC, you have identified a football-only issue. And with regards to scheduling, 7 of the schools don’t even view it as a problem. 
 

The only way it changes is if Vincennes decides the ‘new’ Big PAC is a better fit or Jasper/Castle decides to move towards Bedford and Bloomington. 

Obviously my opinion matters zero to anyone in Knox county but I think they really screwed up.  They had been working so hard and doing a great job with program momentum then they saw the SIAC move as the next step in their journey.  Even for P&Ps it's hard to keep a program sexy in your own hallways winning 3-4 games a season.  It's a hard sell to kids, "Just wait for the post season and we might win 3 games!"  I think VL would be a great fit in the PAC Big division where they would also have some non-conference flexibility to adjust for up and down cycles in the program.

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On 12/31/2021 at 8:27 AM, HHF said:

 

2. Media Isolation - with an abundance of local high school sports coverage, both conferences are highly provincial and wear blinders relative to what is going on in the rest of the state.  Still, both complain about an "Indy bias" and a lack of statewide coverage of their specific schools and conferences.

 

To be fair, there have been some in NE IN media that have advocated for exactly what you're talking about. See Outside the Huddle's article here.

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On 12/31/2021 at 7:27 AM, HHF said:

 

2. Media Isolation - with an abundance of local high school sports coverage, both conferences are highly provincial and wear blinders relative to what is going on in the rest of the state.  Still, both complain about an "Indy bias" and a lack of statewide coverage of their specific schools and conferences.

 

 

I think the only complaint in SW Indiana in the past regarding Media Biased was how the Mt. Football award voting used to work.  I think that is fixed now (with the IFCA member votes).  Other than that we really don't need Indy media down here.  Now, recruiting bias is another story, but that's a small town issue nation wide.  It's always harder to get noticed when you don't play for a big school in a big media market.

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On 12/31/2021 at 11:33 AM, DumfriesYMCA said:

Traditionally they are a .500 team. And this year they were a great team 

 

but that doesn’t even matter and isnt even my point.  Point is…SIAC being closed off has allowed GS to schedule some of the former SIAC opponents 

If we want to talk about bad 5A teams scheduled by school in SW Indiana....lets talk Jeffersonville.  How comical it was to watch the folks over at Mt. Vernon (Posey) brag about that victory this year.  

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19 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Obviously my opinion matters zero to anyone in Knox county but I think they really screwed up.  They had been working so hard and doing a great job with program momentum then they saw the SIAC move as the next step in their journey.  Even for P&Ps it's hard to keep a program sexy in your own hallways winning 3-4 games a season.  It's a hard sell to kids, "Just wait for the post season and we might win 3 games!"  I think VL would be a great fit in the PAC Big division where they would also have some non-conference flexibility to adjust for up and down cycles in the program.

I guess I can understand how some view VL as an SIAC misfit based solely on results.  But it's been a whole 2 seasons...not sure that's a big enough sample size to indicate how this will turn out. Give it a few years. The internal belief going forward is that Lincoln will be competitive in the conference annually. We joined for the same reasons as Jasper, and still feel confident in the choice. Selling the program is in no way a problem. The numbers are still there. Coach Salters is very relatable to the kids and is establishing (or has already established) a good culture to keep everyone engaged. I just don't see the grim outlook that some are predicting. 

By the same token, VL would be a great fit in the Big PAC as would GS be a perfect fit in the SIAC. 

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22 minutes ago, SEAL_63 said:

I guess I can understand how some view VL as an SIAC misfit based solely on results.  But it's been a whole 2 seasons...not sure that's a big enough sample size to indicate how this will turn out. Give it a few years. The internal belief going forward is that Lincoln will be competitive in the conference annually. We joined for the same reasons as Jasper, and still feel confident in the choice. Selling the program is in no way a problem. The numbers are still there. Coach Salters is very relatable to the kids and is establishing (or has already established) a good culture to keep everyone engaged. I just don't see the grim outlook that some are predicting. 

By the same token, VL would be a great fit in the Big PAC as would GS be a perfect fit in the SIAC. 

Fair enough, as I stated, my opinion matters zero and time will tell.  As for GS I am very happy we are where we are, I like our flexibility although it can create more work for admin.

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