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Who would you kick out of conference?


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1 hour ago, HHF said:

I think this is still a possibility due more to political reasons than competitive ones.

I think IPS and top level politically connected people in Indy would like to see Tech in The MIC.  It would certainly go a long way in legitimizing IPS sports to the general public, and likely spur participation and even potentially increase enrollment.  The loss of CG and CAR makes The MIC less a football conference and more a basketball one, which is Tech's strength.  

If The MIC does intend to flex back out to 8 schools, I expect Tech to be one of the additions.  I think Franklin Central is the next best fit, just hard to see them bolt from The HCC.  

Best case scenario:

Tech and FC to The MIC

CG to The HCC

WL to The NCC

Carmel already off to the races as an independent

 

If "political reasons" gets your student-athletes sent to the slaughter house in most sports, count me out.

Think Butler has any regrets about joining the Big East yet?

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6 minutes ago, temptation said:

If "political reasons" gets your student-athletes sent to the slaughter house in most sports, count me out.

Think Butler has any regrets about joining the Big East yet?

I dont follow basketball other than IU, and only if they are competitive.

The bottom half of The MIC in football is weak.  If Tech makes the committment, they can compete.  And Tech is like all the other MIC schools who didnt measure up to the CG/CAR competitive standards in many other sports.  

This is more about inventory and filling slots than trying to find another 2 power house programs to replace the two booted schools.  They simply dont exist.  So The MIC should look for like minded partners, and Tech and FC are as close as they can expect to get.

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2 hours ago, dazed and confused said:

i've been thinking for a couple years that West Lafayette could be better prepared for post season by leaving the the Hoosier.... NCC ?

WL has played Jeff for the last four seasons, played McCutcheon for just under the last decade, and will start playing Harrison in the 2022 season.  Not sure who else in the NCC, perhaps outside of maybe Kokomo, would make them better-prepared for the 3A post-season.  Granted, size of players may be slightly bigger in the NCC, but WL would easily dominate the likes of Logansport, Muncie Central, Tech, Anderson, and Marion.

WL used to play Tri-West in non-con and that might be a better pick-up than having McCutcheon on their schedule at this point.  I suspect, however, the lure of having LCC, McCutcheon, and Harrison/Jeff on your schedule is somewhat enticing from a travel standpoint.  Even in an off-year where those three games would be "away" games, West Lafayette would likely play 7 of 9 games at home or within about a 15-minute drive from home.  Having at least three of those four on your schedule also provides prep for post season.

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6 minutes ago, foxbat said:

WL has played Jeff for the last four seasons, played McCutcheon for just under the last decade, and will start playing Harrison in the 2022 season.  Not sure who else in the NCC, perhaps outside of maybe Kokomo, would make them better-prepared for the 3A post-season.  Granted, size of players may be slightly bigger in the NCC, but WL would easily dominate the likes of Logansport, Muncie Central, Tech, Anderson, and Marion.

WL used to play Tri-West in non-con and that might be a better pick-up than having McCutcheon on their schedule at this point.  I suspect, however, the lure of having LCC, McCutcheon, and Harrison/Jeff on your schedule is somewhat enticing from a travel standpoint.  Even in an off-year where those three games would be "away" games, West Lafayette would likely play 7 of 9 games at home or within about a 15-minute drive from home.  Having at least three of those four on your schedule also provides prep for post season.

Ive interviewed Coach Fry several times and he has basically come flat out and said the regular season means nothing to his program.  That tells me that WL and the Hoosier are a major misfit.  Im a little surprised that the Hoosier has not tried to push them out.  Logansport is much improved under Mike Johnson.  Kokomo is a solid program and a Kokomo - WL game would be worth watching.  McCutcheon is making a coaching change and is not far removed from being a solid program.  Jeff and Harrison are rolling.  WL plays at a 5A level, some would say small 6A   They would be a great addition to Indiana's most historic conference. 

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31 minutes ago, HHF said:

I dont follow basketball other than IU, and only if they are competitive.

The bottom half of The MIC in football is weak.  If Tech makes the committment, they can compete.  And Tech is like all the other MIC schools who didnt measure up to the CG/CAR competitive standards in many other sports.  

This is more about inventory and filling slots than trying to find another 2 power house programs to replace the two booted schools.  They simply dont exist.  So The MIC should look for like minded partners, and Tech and FC are as close as they can expect to get.

Completely on board with FC (and as I suggested earlier even Avon), but Tech is not the answer.

I see your point financially and even from a legitimacy standpoint as it relates to IPS, but other than that, it'd be a slaughter.

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3 minutes ago, HHF said:

Ive interviewed Coach Fry several times and he has basically come flat out and said the regular season means nothing to his program.  That tells me that WL and the Hoosier are a major misfit.  Im a little surprised that the Hoosier has not tried to push them out.  Logansport is much improved under Mike Johnson.  Kokomo is a solid program and a Kokomo - WL game would be worth watching.  McCutcheon is making a coaching change and is not far removed from being a solid program.  Jeff and Harrison are rolling.  WL plays at a 5A level, some would say small 6A   They would be a great addition to Indiana's most historic conference. 

The regular season for most coaches competing at the WL level means less than what's done in the post-season.  It's the reason that many of the top performing schools take losses in the season to go further in the post-season.

I just don't see the NCC, given what WL already has as being much of an upward jump for WL ... especially in looking at the added travel component.  Again, WL already has McCutcheon and Harrison/Jeff on their schedule while they are still in the Hoosier.  WL vs. Kokomo would be in roughly the same level as WL vs. Western.  Same with Logansport.  And they don't have to jump conferences.

As for the Hoosier pushing WL out, I don't see that happening unless something egregious happens.  At this time, WL provides a level of notoriety for the conference.  WL has won the HC in four seasons of the last decade and has often provided buzz that positively impacts the conference.  I'm not sure why the HC would want to push them out.

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4 minutes ago, temptation said:

Completely on board with FC (and as I suggested earlier even Avon), but Tech is not the answer.

I see your point financially and even from a legitimacy standpoint as it relates to IPS, but other than that, it'd be a slaughter.

If IPS and the city want to see Tech in The MIC, it will happen.  Slaughterhouse or not.  IPS and the city political machine have a lot more power than the MIC admins.  Not even close.

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3 minutes ago, foxbat said:

The regular season for most coaches competing at the WL level means less than what's done in the post-season.  It's the reason that many of the top performing schools take losses in the season to go further in the post-season.

I just don't see the NCC, given what WL already has as being much of an upward jump for WL ... especially in looking at the added travel component.  Again, WL already has McCutcheon and Harrison/Jeff on their schedule while they are still in the Hoosier.  WL vs. Kokomo would be in roughly the same level as WL vs. Western.  Same with Logansport.  And they don't have to jump conferences.

As for the Hoosier pushing WL out, I don't see that happening unless something egregious happens.  At this time, WL provides a level of notoriety for the conference.  WL has won the HC in four seasons of the last decade and has often provided buzz that positively impacts the conference.  I'm not sure why the HC would want to push them out.

Crushing losses, year after year.  The large majority of WLs games are unwatchable and uncompetitive.  Some are downright scary when you look at the roster imbalance and the huge physicality advantage WL has.  

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2 hours ago, HHF said:

I think this is still a possibility due more to political reasons than competitive ones.

I think IPS and top level politically connected people in Indy would like to see Tech in The MIC.  It would certainly go a long way in legitimizing IPS sports to the general public, and likely spur participation and even potentially increase enrollment.  The loss of CG and CAR makes The MIC less a football conference and more a basketball one, which is Tech's strength.  

If The MIC does intend to flex back out to 8 schools, I expect Tech to be one of the additions.  I think Franklin Central is the next best fit, just hard to see them bolt from The HCC.  

Best case scenario:

Tech and FC to The MIC

CG to The HCC

WL to The NCC

Carmel already off to the races as an independent

 

I really believe that CG would have gotten in the HCC if they went alone and no connection with Carmel. FC to the MIC makes so much sense.

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2 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

I really believe that CG would have gotten in the HCC if they went alone and no connection with Carmel. FC to the MIC makes so much sense.

FC seems like an odd fit in the HCC.  Just doesnt feel right.  Never did.  This may be there chance to find a better fit.  Jayson West has strong MIC ties as a state championship coach at LC and WC.  Dont underplay his influence in that building.  If you asked him, Im betting he would choose the MIC over The HCC for his program.  

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42 minutes ago, HHF said:

If IPS and the city want to see Tech in The MIC, it will happen.  Slaughterhouse or not.  IPS and the city political machine have a lot more power than the MIC admins.  Not even close.

At the expense of the student athletes.  At least 2 (if not more) running clock conference games annually in football, getting throttled in the country club sports (where they will fail to field full squads on many occasions), and MAYBE going .500 in basketball?

18 minutes ago, HHF said:

FC seems like an odd fit in the HCC.  Just doesnt feel right.  Never did.  This may be there chance to find a better fit.  Jayson West has strong MIC ties as a state championship coach at LC and WC.  Dont underplay his influence in that building.  If you asked him, Im betting he would choose the MIC over The HCC for his program.  

I tend to agree.  With the changing socioeconomics, FC's path to competitiveness in the MIC would be shorter than its ascent to the top of the HCC.  

Avon and Brownsburg are headed for 4000 students in the next few years and Zionsville/Westfield will be at 3000 before you know it.

Edited by temptation
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8 minutes ago, temptation said:

At the expense of the student athletes.  At least 2 (if not more) running clock conference games annually in football, getting throttled in the country club sports (where they will fail to field full squads on many occasions), and MAYBE going .500 in basketball?

I tend to agree.  With the changing socioeconomics, FC's path to competitiveness in the MIC would be shorter than its ascent to the top of the HCC.  

Avon and Brownsburg are headed for 4000 students in the next few years and Zionsville/Westfield will be at 3000 before you know it.

Chicago has 31 football teams that play in a "Chicago Public League" and do not participate in the state tournament. 

I'm not sure exactly why.  I would assume it's heavily based in socioeconomics and politics - just a guess on my part.

But would IPS ever move in that direction?  Create an IPS only conference to include Tech, Attucks, Shortridge, Washington? (There may be more, I just can't seem to keep up with all their changes.)   

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1 minute ago, oldtimeqb said:

Chicago has 31 football teams that play in a "Chicago Public League" and do not participate in the state tournament. 

I'm not sure exactly why.  I would assume it's heavily based in socioeconomics and politics - just a guess on my part.

But would IPS ever move in that direction?  Create an IPS only conference to include Tech, Attucks, Shortridge, Washington? (There may be more, I just can't seem to keep up with all their changes.)   

Been there, done that I believe.

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13 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Chicago has 31 football teams that play in a "Chicago Public League" and do not participate in the state tournament. 

I'm not sure exactly why.  I would assume it's heavily based in socioeconomics and politics - just a guess on my part.

But would IPS ever move in that direction?  Create an IPS only conference to include Tech, Attucks, Shortridge, Washington? (There may be more, I just can't seem to keep up with all their changes.)   

Dr Whites vision was that Tech would be the Indianapolis flagship IPS school and that its top student  athletes would flock to the school to take advantage of the best facilities', the best coaching and the highest level of  competition.  The other schools mentioned are all smaller class schools.   

IPS high school enrollment is shockingly low.  I think there are approx 6000 students left in the 4 schools mentioned.  White wanted to funnel all of them in to Tech and create a mega school that could compete with Carmel.  He had great ambition, maybe a little over the top, but that was his dream.  He saw Tech competing with Ben Davis and Warren Central and Carmel as an equal.  

Just now, HHF said:

Dr Whites vision was that Tech would be the Indianapolis flagship IPS school and that its top student  athletes would flock to the school to take advantage of the best facilities', the best coaching and the highest level of  competition.  The other schools mentioned are all smaller class schools.   

IPS high school enrollment is shockingly low.  I think there are approx 6000 students left in the 4 schools mentioned.  White wanted to funnel all of them in to Tech and create a mega school that could compete with Carmel.  He had great ambition, maybe a little over the top, but that was his dream.  He saw Tech competing with Ben Davis and Warren Central and Carmel as an equal.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, HHF said:

Dr Whites vision was that Tech would be the Indianapolis flagship IPS school and that its top student  athletes would flock to the school to take advantage of the best facilities', the best coaching and the highest level of  competition.  The other schools mentioned are all smaller class schools.   

IPS high school enrollment is shockingly low.  I think there are approx 6000 students left in the 4 schools mentioned.  White wanted to funnel all of them in to Tech and create a mega school that could compete with Carmel.  He had great ambition, maybe a little over the top, but that was his dream.  He saw Tech competing with Ben Davis and Warren Central and Carmel as an equal.  

 

 

Pipe dream.

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10 hours ago, temptation said:

If "political reasons" gets your student-athletes sent to the slaughter house in most sports, count me out.

Think Butler has any regrets about joining the Big East yet?

As a Butler fan, there are no regrets as it pertains to joining the Big East. The only regrets we should have are that we haven’t allocated more money into the men’s basketball budget and that we don’t pay our men’s basketball coach better. Not talking LaVall. I’m talking about the one we let get away (Holtmann).

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10 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

As a Butler fan, there are no regrets as it pertains to joining the Big East. The only regrets we should have are that we haven’t allocated more money into the men’s basketball budget and that we don’t pay our men’s basketball coach better. Not talking LaVall. I’m talking about the one we let get away (Holtmann).

Eh, Butler was better off as the "little guy" who had a chance.  Now they are a Big East bottom feeder and have no chance as their recruiting footprint will never be on par with the Big East/northeast powers.

They went from everyone's favorite Cinderella to an also ran.

Just my opinion.

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2 hours ago, temptation said:

Eh, Butler was better off as the "little guy" who had a chance.  Now they are a Big East bottom feeder and have no chance as their recruiting footprint will never be on par with the Big East/northeast powers.

They went from everyone's favorite Cinderella to an also ran.

Just my opinion.

It wasn’t feasible to continue being successful as the “little guy” unless you’re going to go all-out and invest in the team like Gonzaga does. Not sure why Butler doesn’t. However, by joining the Big East, Butler makes a lot more money than they did when they were in the Atlantic 10 and Horizon League before it. So that’s a positive. If you haven’t been on campus in 10-15 years, you’d definitely see the benefit of all that Final Four and Big East money.

As for “Big East bottom feeder”, nothing could be further from the truth. Of the ten teams that have been part of the conference since its rebirth in 2013-2014, Butler is #6 in wins. They’re ahead of Marquette, St. John’s, Georgetown, and DePaul and slightly behind Seton Hall. Throw in NCAA Tournament appearances and Butler is tied for fourth with Creighton and Seton Hall at four appearances each. Only Villanova (7), Xavier (5), and Providence (5) are higher. That also includes UConn who only has three appearances in that time despite being in the much easier AAC for most of it.

Also, it was just two years ago when Butler was ranked in the top 5. Of course, COVID’s role in the cancellation of the NCAA Tournament that year kept us from seeing how far Butler would advance.

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On 1/26/2022 at 10:59 AM, foxbat said:

The regular season for most coaches competing at the WL level means less than what's done in the post-season.  It's the reason that many of the top performing schools take losses in the season to go further in the post-season.

I just don't see the NCC, given what WL already has as being much of an upward jump for WL ... especially in looking at the added travel component.  Again, WL already has McCutcheon and Harrison/Jeff on their schedule while they are still in the Hoosier.  WL vs. Kokomo would be in roughly the same level as WL vs. Western.  Same with Logansport.  And they don't have to jump conferences.

As for the Hoosier pushing WL out, I don't see that happening unless something egregious happens.  At this time, WL provides a level of notoriety for the conference.  WL has won the HC in four seasons of the last decade and has often provided buzz that positively impacts the conference.  I'm not sure why the HC would want to push them out.

West Side’s toughest regular season game has been Jeff for the past 4 seasons, now their toughest game will be Harrison. Being able to play both of them every year would a bump up in difficulty. 

Also, Kokomo is probably a step or 2 above Western and trending up. Western lost twice last year to WL 69-19 and 44-0. Kokomo would give them much better games than that.

 

But I agree. If I’m the Hoosier conference, I’m begging WL to stay. With that being said.. if WL were to join the NCC and have a conference schedule filled with Jeff, Harrison, Kokomo, Marion (who has even been to semi-state twice within 5 years), and then have 2 non conference games to schedule probably LCC and a good 3a-6a. That’s a much better schedule to get them ready for the postseason. Yeah the travel could suck some years, but nothing too bad. WL has outgrown the Hoosier conference

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3 hours ago, Bears62 said:

West Side’s toughest regular season game has been Jeff for the past 4 seasons, now their toughest game will be Harrison. Being able to play both of them every year would a bump up in difficulty. 

Also, Kokomo is probably a step or 2 above Western and trending up. Western lost twice last year to WL 69-19 and 44-0. Kokomo would give them much better games than that.

 

But I agree. If I’m the Hoosier conference, I’m begging WL to stay. With that being said.. if WL were to join the NCC and have a conference schedule filled with Jeff, Harrison, Kokomo, Marion (who has even been to semi-state twice within 5 years), and then have 2 non conference games to schedule probably LCC and a good 3a-6a. That’s a much better schedule to get them ready for the postseason. Yeah the travel could suck some years, but nothing too bad. WL has outgrown the Hoosier conference

WL Coach Shane Fry sounds a little disappointed regarding this subject:

https://www.facebook.com/Hoosier-High-School-Football-107360041590757/

 

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  • 3 months later...
On 1/20/2022 at 3:23 PM, Frozen Tundra said:

Madison applied to join the Mid-Southern Conference last February after Clarksville announced it was leaving. The conference’s principals voted to table the application and stick with eight for the 2021-2022 school year.

Do you have any newspaper/radio links to that story?

Edited by DanteEstonia
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On 1/18/2022 at 3:28 PM, Whiting89 said:

With schools getting kicked out (CG Carmel) or possibly leaving voluntarily (VL), who would kick out and why and where you would reassign them?

greater south shore

bishop Noll and lake station, they bring nothing and should go independent to play smaller programs. 
 

northwest crossroads

munster the Carmel of the north in regards to wealth, independent. They are 4a playing with a 2a roster they’d be better served choosing their opponents. 
 

have the greater south shore take in the Great Lakes conference 

with bni and lake station gone and Hanover leaving this makes sense now

 

Nobody out from the NLC, if anything I would add a couple schools like Jimtown, New Prairie, Elkhart, or Edwardsburg to make 2 divisions. 

But don't see that happening and I'm fine with that. 

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