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How is this not being discussed more ??


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The IHSAA's decision on how to handle the COVID year and "screws" it will put to some programs (ours being one). 

I don't even know really where to start - but I'll just use our case as an example :

Won State in 2017, went to semi-state 2018. Got bumped up to 3A as a result. 2019 beat in 3A sectional...2020 3A semi-state (enough points to keep us up for another 2 year cycle)

So (using football years here) 2021 season beat in 3A sectional...2022 SHOULD potentially be our last in 3A based on enrollment figures just released, which would put us back in 2A. 

HOWEVER - the IHSAA decides...well, we're just gonna wait till 2023 to put everyone back on the same page, sorry about your luck?? So the success factor was suppose to be a 2 year cycle, but we're just the lucky ones to potentially get an extra year?? 

So essentially the State Champs this year get a free pass as well?? 

I know there wasn't a great way to handle the COVID year, but I think I could have come up with a better solution. 

Why not just have a "rolling" 2 year count...what is so hard with that?? It would keep teams from catching the "lucky" side of the window or whatever you want to call it. 

I know, first world problems....just bored on these snow days

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The longer this goes on the more I think there should just be a committee among the IFCA where they decide where teams are placed. 
 

Southridge is one of many schools that are successful but don’t necessarily need to be playing up…and I’m certain many coaches would agree.

 

let the coaches discuss with each other and determine where teams should be.  
 

on this note….one thing that has really stuck out to me since the success factor was implemented…..Mater Dei has stayed in 2A this entire time.  Not trying to stir the pot with the MD fans….just that they have an excellent program and have had it for a long time with tons of success.  They are on the same level as Gibson  Southern and Evansville Memorial and would have been a very tough out in sectional 32 at the 3A level.

 

just seems like the success factor could use some actual input from people…mostly coaches and not just some simple math formula 

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37 minutes ago, jets said:

The IHSAA's decision on how to handle the COVID year and "screws" it will put to some programs (ours being one). 

I don't even know really where to start - but I'll just use our case as an example :

Won State in 2017, went to semi-state 2018. Got bumped up to 3A as a result. 2019 beat in 3A sectional...2020 3A semi-state (enough points to keep us up for another 2 year cycle)

So (using football years here) 2021 season beat in 3A sectional...2022 SHOULD potentially be our last in 3A based on enrollment figures just released, which would put us back in 2A. 

HOWEVER - the IHSAA decides...well, we're just gonna wait till 2023 to put everyone back on the same page, sorry about your luck?? So the success factor was suppose to be a 2 year cycle, but we're just the lucky ones to potentially get an extra year?? 

So essentially the State Champs this year get a free pass as well?? 

I know there wasn't a great way to handle the COVID year, but I think I could have come up with a better solution. 

Why not just have a "rolling" 2 year count...what is so hard with that?? It would keep teams from catching the "lucky" side of the window or whatever you want to call it. 

I know, first world problems....just bored on these snow days

@Muda69has tried to discuss this many times. 

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Why not just abolish the Success Factor all together? I think the biggest class that has issues of the same teams always winning is 6A and there's no 7A to send Center Grove to. Let's be honest the Success Factor was put in place to either "keep in check" or "punish" Catholic school dominance in the early 2010s depending on your viewpoint. For those who wanted Catholic schools to play up it didn't work. Those teams are still making it to state and winning.

And there's so many problems with it. As Jets described one good class hurt Southridge. Their team two seasons ago would have possibly won 2A, or at minimum had a great chance. Then you have teams like Western Boone who won their first two state championships in the correct (lucky) years. It's like the NCAA putting scholarship limits on teams for recruiting scandals that happened with the last coach or group of players.

A better way for the IHSAA to classify would be to look at overall male population for boys sports and percentage of male population in schools then classify based off that. But that's a common sense approach which probably means it won't happen.

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Great topic for a thread. Horrible title though… but I digress

Mid 2000’s the IHSAA tried a 4 year cycle for enrollment. Circa 2003-07 I think? It turned out poorly. I agree that 4 year enrollment counts are way too long. 

Two years works for enrollment. Four years would be the right length of time to measure program success factor and not just one outstanding class. 

My perfect world: 2 year enrollment cycles. 4 year rolling SF points. If that means sectionals have to be redrawn in ‘off’ years so be it. They seemed to be able to handle that when Carmel was involved last time around. 

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4 hours ago, Old Man High Pants said:

A better way for the IHSAA to classify would be to look at overall male population for boys sports and percentage of male population in schools then classify based off that. But that's a common sense approach which probably means it won't happen.

A true system of promotion and relegation is the correct answer.

 

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

A true system of promotion and relegation is the correct answer.

 

But how many teams in each level move up/down?  What's your promotion zone?  Your cream is still going to rise to the top?  You're still going to have "leagues" and "levels".    You bet your patootie that the recruiting flood gates will open.  

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The Indianapolis Star had an article on this topic, January 28th. Paul Neidig's, the IHSAA commissioner, stated the following.

1} The IHSAA is planning on reclassifying this year.

2} Each School's IDOE enrollment numbers will be released in the next few weeks.

3} Once those numbers are verified, the reclassification will take place.

4} Success factor adjustment will be based on the 20-21 and 21-22 school years.

5} Once classes are created, realignment committees will be selected to create new sectional groupings.

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1 hour ago, Old Man High Pants said:

I don't disagree with you but the IHSAA's current "promotion" factor is highly flawed, not sure I'd want them working on "regulation" as well.

Not "regulation",  relegation.  Two different words.  And the system is 100% divorced from school population.  This wikipedia entry explains it nicely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_and_relegation

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11 hours ago, Robert said:

But how many teams in each level move up/down?  What's your promotion zone?  Your cream is still going to rise to the top?  You're still going to have "leagues" and "levels".   

I'll leave the details of the implementation to you and the other mathematical braniacs at the IHSAA.  I'm the big idea guy here.

11 hours ago, Robert said:

You bet your patootie that the recruiting flood gates will open.  

Meh, that gate was opened a long time ago when open enrollment legislation was instituted.  Better for the IHSAA to just throw in the towel on that.

 

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1 hour ago, coachmay said:

4} Success factor adjustment will be based on the 20-21 and 21-22 school years.

Any success factor adjustment that puts Chatard in 3A and WeBo in 2A is a sham. 
 

As @jets pointed out, Southridge was 3A for 3 years after winning ONE title. To make WeBo 3A for one year after winning THREE 2A titles would be absurd. 

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The success factor formula states that, If you are up a class and earn 2 or more points over that 2 year period, that school would remain up a class. 

Since both schools were up a class for only 1 year, it will be interesting to see what the IHSAA decides to do with both schools.

 

Western Boone was 3A last year.  2021- they received zero points.   2020 they were 2A- they won state, they received 4 points. 

Chatard was 4A last year.              2021- they received zero points. 2020 they were 3A- they won state, they received 4 points.

 

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3 hours ago, coachmay said:

 

4} Success factor adjustment will be based on the 20-21 and 21-22 school years.

 

 So you're OK with a school (Southridge) being given an "extra" success factor year, just because the IHSAA says so?? 

And essentially the State Champs this year given an "extra" year to not move up? 

Of course you are, because it generally benefits your situation. Ours, not so much. 

In the end it doesn't matter - the IHSAA will do whatever is easiest for them and causes the least ruffles. I've tried contacting and reaching out and essentially it's "Sorry, you (Southridge) are just a casualty and will cause the least amount of ruffles" - it is just too bad for our kids. 

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Where did you get that I was ok with anything? I just stated the success factor rule?

Unfortunately for us the IHSAA did not reclassify last year. Our enrollment would have put us in 2A, {our enrollment as of last week was 475}. We finished the season at 11-1 but we got beat by a very good Lawrenceburg team in the sectional championship game and if we would have won, we would have played the 3A state champion {Gibson Southern} in the regional. Like yourself we were NOT ok with the IHSAA not reclassifying last year. Believe me, I wish we had been in 2A last year, but we weren't.

I would also like to say that Coach Buening and I are very good friends and I want nothing but the best for Southridge HS. Hopefully, the IHSAA will reclassify this year and we both will be back in 2A.

 

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1 hour ago, coachmay said:

Where did you get that I was ok with anything? I just stated the success factor rule?

Unfortunately for us the IHSAA did not reclassify last year. Our enrollment would have put us in 2A, {our enrollment as of last week was 475}. We finished the season at 11-1 but we got beat by a very good Lawrenceburg team in the sectional championship game and if we would have won, we would have played the 3A state champion {Gibson Southern} in the regional. Like yourself we were NOT ok with the IHSAA not reclassifying last year. Believe me, I wish we had been in 2A last year, but we weren't.

I would also like to say that Coach Buening and I are very good friends and I want nothing but the best for Southridge HS. Hopefully, the IHSAA will reclassify this year and we both will be back in 2A.

 

You're right - my apologies. 

Just a frustrating situation that I feel like is getting kind of "glossed" over cause well, it doesn't affect that many people (schools) it seems. 

Is our situation really that unique?? 

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On 2/5/2022 at 1:26 PM, jets said:

You're right - my apologies. 

Just a frustrating situation that I feel like is getting kind of "glossed" over cause well, it doesn't affect that many people (schools) it seems. 

Is our situation really that unique?? 

Pioneer is in the same boat. 

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On 2/5/2022 at 1:26 PM, jets said:

You're right - my apologies. 

Just a frustrating situation that I feel like is getting kind of "glossed" over cause well, it doesn't affect that many people (schools) it seems. 

Is our situation really that unique?? 

Like with anything in life, things do not typically get talked about until it impacts individuals themselves or a large enough group of people. 

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On 2/4/2022 at 1:24 PM, Old Man High Pants said:

Why not just abolish the Success Factor all together? I think the biggest class that has issues of the same teams always winning is 6A and there's no 7A to send Center Grove to. Let's be honest the Success Factor was put in place to either "keep in check" or "punish" Catholic school dominance in the early 2010s depending on your viewpoint. For those who wanted Catholic schools to play up it didn't work. Those teams are still making it to state and winning.

And there's so many problems with it. As Jets described one good class hurt Southridge. Their team two seasons ago would have possibly won 2A, or at minimum had a great chance. Then you have teams like Western Boone who won their first two state championships in the correct (lucky) years. It's like the NCAA putting scholarship limits on teams for recruiting scandals that happened with the last coach or group of players.

A better way for the IHSAA to classify would be to look at overall male population for boys sports and percentage of male population in schools then classify based off that. But that's a common sense approach which probably means it won't happen.

I agree 100%, I am not a fan of the SF. I mentioned in another thread 6A teams don't get punished for winning.  I think if a 6A team gets  the move up points they should have to sit out the next two years. Only way to make it fair.

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