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Unsuccessful programs


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I had start a post about what you define as a successful program.  I am also curious to what you would say is an unsuccessful one.  First this this nothing to do what the kids that play.  They all work tbier tailed off to win, but what keeps some programs down while other stay up.

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20 minutes ago, Trojanmp52 said:

I had start a post about what you define as a successful program.  I am also curious to what you would say is an unsuccessful one.  First this this nothing to do what the kids that play.  They all work tbier tailed off to win, but what keeps some programs down while other stay up.

What was the original thread title?

Oh boy...this should be entertaining.

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Not all encompassing and in no particular order:

Where kids are more important than the team.  Parents more concerned with position, playing time, and recruiting than winning.

Where coaches aren't willing to put the time into preparation and/or building a program rather than just a team.

Lack of or inconsistent culture.

Bitching about opponents having unfair advantages.

Avoiding playing teams that would make your team better.

Unsupportive administration.

Lack of a sufficient strength and conditioning program.

Coaches who are unwilling to adapt their style to the different personalities of players and coaches.

 

And obviously too many free lunches. 🙄

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1 minute ago, Ballhawk said:

I'd add coaches in other sports who discourage students from participating in multiple sports.

While I understand the shortsightedness in coaches who do this, I always thought this was nuts; especially given 1) what the sports numbers show and 2) what the medical info shows.  If you look at folks that get drafted eventually, they tend to have been multi-sport athletes in high school.  Also, when you look at how kids develop, if they are going to be an athlete in one sport, their body still needs the various muscle/body development afforded by multiple sports.  I've been really happy that my sons' coaches have all supported/encouraged, when they were young and now that the oldest is in high school, playing more than one sport.

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3 hours ago, Grover said:

Not all encompassing and in no particular order:

Where kids are more important than the team.  Parents more concerned with position, playing time, and recruiting than winning.

Where coaches aren't willing to put the time into preparation and/or building a program rather than just a team.

Lack of or inconsistent culture.

Bitching about opponents having unfair advantages.

Avoiding playing teams that would make your team better.

Unsupportive administration.

Lack of a sufficient strength and conditioning program.

Coaches who are unwilling to adapt their style to the different personalities of players and coaches.

 

And obviously too many free lunches. 🙄

I agree with all....

I would add lack of a strong youth program and lack of investment by the head coach in the youth program.  Strong feeders, with youth have a friday night vision, is a must.

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Just now, Footballking16 said:

Definitely the reason why Noblesville and Lake Central have unsuccessful football programs. 

Nailed it. 

Noblesville and Lake Central have enormously low free and reduced percentages compared to their counterparts around the state/state average.  But you already knew that.

Instead of choosing these types of examples, try harder.  Give me examples that refute my point.  

Name a school that is over 50 percent free and reduced lunch and is not in the top half of its class in enrollment and has had long term success.

I’ll wait…

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9 minutes ago, temptation said:

Noblesville and Lake Central have enormously low free and reduced percentages compared to their counterparts around the state/state average.  But you already knew that.

Instead of choosing these types of examples, try harder.  Give me examples that refute my point.  

Name a school that is over 50 percent free and reduced lunch and is not in the top half of its class in enrollment and has had long term success.

I’ll wait…

Snider

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57 minutes ago, temptation said:

Noblesville and Lake Central have enormously low free and reduced percentages compared to their counterparts around the state/state average.  But you already knew that.

Instead of choosing these types of examples, try harder.  Give me examples that refute my point.  

Name a school that is over 50 percent free and reduced lunch and is not in the top half of its class in enrollment and has had long term success.

I’ll wait…

45 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Snider

Fort Wayne Snider is most definitely in the top half of 5A enrollment, so they do not fit the critera as defined by @temptation

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@temptation - what is your definition of long term success? I am putting together this list of schools now to see who even meets the qualification of lower half of ther class by enrollement and +50% free and reduced lunch? I've got the 6A and 5A schools completed so far... and FYI - there are not many that even meet this criteria, so I am betting the answer to your request of 

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Give me examples that refute my point.  Name a school that is over 50 percent free and reduced lunch and is not in the top half of its class in enrollment and has had long term success.

will not be found. I agree this is something that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't know why so many dispute you on this.

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15 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

Fort Wayne Snider is most definitely in the top half of 5A enrollment, so they do not fit the critera as defined by @temptation

Have a question for you ... and I'm not trying to say/start anything.  Just interested in your opinion.  I've only recently become acquainted with Warsaw as my boys' travel baseball teams have competed in a Warsaw tournament for the past 4-5 years.  It's the one tournament that all of the Harrison travel baseball teams have attended at the same time and they call it their Raider Invasion.  From the outside looking in, I would consider Warsaw to be a program on the upswing and also successful.  At the same time, it also has a fairly decent-sized FRL percentage, around 40%, and a non-White population pushing 30% ... and I suspect that's growing.  It would also be in the lower half of 6A too with enrollment.  Would you concur, at least in your opinion, that it's successful?  To some extent, the term successful is up to all types of interpretation, but I often think that, first and foremost, the constituency would define successful as they see fit. 

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1 minute ago, foxbat said:

Have a question for you ... and I'm not trying to say/start anything.  Just interested in your opinion.  I've only recently become acquainted with Warsaw as my boys' travel baseball teams have competed in a Warsaw tournament for the past 4-5 years.  It's the one tournament that all of the Harrison travel baseball teams have attended at the same time and they call it their Raider Invasion.  From the outside looking in, I would consider Warsaw to be a program on the upswing and also successful.  At the same time, it also has a fairly decent-sized FRL percentage, around 40%, and a non-White population pushing 30% ... and I suspect that's growing.  It would also be in the lower half of 6A too with enrollment.  Would you concur, at least in your opinion, that it's successful?  To some extent, the term successful is up to all types of interpretation, but I often think that, first and foremost, the constituency would define successful as they see fit. 

Long-term success as a football program? No I would say Warsaw does not fit that criteria. A handful of conference championships over the last three decades and 1 Sectional championship in program history.

Good program? Yes. On the upswing with a lot of potential? Yes. But in the terms that @temptation is talking successful, I would say no. He's going more along the lines of what I would say consistent winning seasons with consistent deep tournament runs. At least multiple sectional titles in their respecitve class.

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11 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

@temptation - what is your definition of long term success? I am putting together this list of schools now to see who even meets the qualification of lower half of ther class by enrollement and +50% free and reduced lunch? I've got the 6A and 5A schools completed so far... and FYI - there are not many that even meet this criteria, so I am betting the answer to your request of 

will not be found. I agree this is something that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't know why so many dispute you on this.

Long term success can be viewed in multiple ways I guess.

I’d say looking at a 6-8 year window (so folks can’t just point to 1-2 strong classes) of winning seasons, more than one sectional title and at least 1 regional title.

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I have gotten through 4A, 5A and 6A based on the 21-22 DOE Enrollment Data that was posted here on the GID as well as Free/Reduced Lunch % for the high school's based on this website https://www.in.gov/doe/files/2021-school-fr-data.pdf.

Here are the schools that fit your criteria of bottom half of their class by enrollment and over 50% free/reduced lunch.

Everyone - feel free to debate if any of these schools have had "long-term success".

6A

21   Southport 2379 69.22%
22   Perry Meridian 2373 58.50%
23   Portage 2269 55.92%
24   Lawrence Central 2245 64.11%
27   Lafayette Jefferson 2153 61.71%
28   Indianapolis Arsenal Tech 2111 67.18%

5A

49   Hammond Morton 1729 53.46%
56   Mishawaka 1584 51.21%
61   Michigan City 1526 71.01%
62   Fort Wayne North Side 1513 55.72%

4A

99   Marion 1036 69.33%
105   Connersville 981 50.77%
106   Beech Grove 968 58.01%
112   Indianapolis Washington 906 63.82%
119   Western 838 51.23%
121   Mississinewa 808 53.01%
123   South Bend Washington 801 67.34%
128   South Bend Clay 778 53.60%

Just looking at it, Mishawaka (4 sectional titles in 5A since 2015), Mississinewa (3 sectional titles since 2017) and Michigan City (3 sectional titles since 2017) are the only ones who I would classify as successful. Marion had a good run with two Regional Championships in 2018 and 2020. Lafayette Jefferson has struggled in their sectionals with tough matchups usually including either Carmel or Merrillville.

Edited by NLCTigerFan07
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8 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I have gotten through 4A, 5A and 6A based on the 21-22 DOE Enrollment Data that was posted here on the GID as well as Free/Reduced Lunch % for the high school's based on this website https://www.in.gov/doe/files/2021-school-fr-data.pdf.

Here are the schools that fit your criteria of bottom half of their class by enrollment and over 50% free/reduced lunch.

Everyone - feel free to debate if any of these schools have had "long-term success".

6A

21   Southport 2379 69.22%
22   Perry Meridian 2373 58.50%
23   Portage 2269 55.92%
24   Lawrence Central 2245 64.11%
27   Lafayette Jefferson 2153 61.71%
28   Indianapolis Arsenal Tech 2111 67.18%

5A

49   Hammond Morton 1729 53.46%
56   Mishawaka 1584 51.21%
61   Michigan City 1526 71.01%
62   Fort Wayne North Side 1513 55.72%

4A

99   Marion 1036 69.33%
105   Connersville 981 50.77%
106   Beech Grove 968 58.01%
112   Indianapolis Washington 906 63.82%
119   Western 838 51.23%
121   Mississinewa 808 53.01%
123   South Bend Washington 801 67.34%
128   South Bend Clay 778 53.60%

Just looking at it, Mishawaka (4 sectional titles in 5A since 2015), Mississinewa (3 sectional titles since 2017) and Michigan City (3 sectional titles since 2017) are the only ones who I would classify as successful. Marion had a good run with two Regional Championships in 2018 and 2020. Lafayette Jefferson has struggled in their sectionals with tough matchups usually including either Carmel or Merrillville.

Awesome work.  Kudos to those programs and their staffs.  I agree on Jefferson, Mishawaka, Michigan City and Ole Miss.  

Willing to bet they are out working almost every other program in the state

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

A true clown show this guy is.  Snider is currently #42 in enrollment, making them #10 in 5A.

You said a program with long term success. 6A has been around for all of 7-8 years. Snider ran a very successful program long before 6A was created as one of the smaller 5A schools.

I answered your question and you were proven wrong. Clown.

Now go puff your chest some more.

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24 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You said a program with long term success. 6A has been around for all of 7-8 years. Snider ran a very successful program long before 6A was created as one of the smaller 5A schools.

I answered your question and you were proven wrong. Clown.

Now go puff your chest some more.

The socioeconomics of Snider High School have changed dramatically in the last 10-20 years.  They were well below 50 percent (hell well below 40 percent) in the mid 2000s and still hover right around 50% even today.

Edited by temptation
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11 hours ago, temptation said:

The socioeconomics of Snider High School have changed dramatically in the last 10-20 years.  They were well below 50 percent (hell well below 40 percent) in the mid 2000s and still hover right around 50% even today.

Yep, the State Street and Maplecrest corridor has definitely turned into a ghetto. Way different from I was running those streets in the 70's & early 80's. 

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