Unsuccessful programs

[temptation]

28 minutes ago, psaboy said:

Yep, the State Street and Maplecrest corridor has definitely turned into a ghetto. Way different from I was running those streets in the 70's & early 80's. 

@Footballking16 doesn’t understand that it’s a moving target.  He will bend, stretch and move the goalposts however far is necessary to try to deflect from the facts staring him right in the face.

Its extremely entertaining.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, psaboy said:

Yep, the State Street and Maplecrest corridor has definitely turned into a ghetto. Way different from I was running those streets in the 70's & early 80's. 

Come again?

[AG]

Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. 

[BTF]

20 minutes ago, AG said:

Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. 

Great sports programs at Pioneer. They could make a case for best in the state pound for pound. 

[BTF]

2 hours ago, psaboy said:

Yep, the State Street and Maplecrest corridor has definitely turned into a ghetto. Way different from I was running those streets in the 70's & early 80's. 

Maybe you were just being sarcastic, but the term ghetto is a disservice to those who still live in the Snider district. Not everyone needs to live in the Homestead, Carroll, and Leo districts to validate their status in life. 

Fun fact: There's more money in St. Joe Township (Snider) than Perry (Carroll) and Aboite (Homestead) even though Aboite is home to the wealthiest zip code in the state. Disclaimer: That stat was from 4 or 5 years ago..........not sure if it still holds true. 

[BDGiant93]

Even a "unsuccessful" program can have success if it's providing opportunities for students to use athletics as a basis to stay in school, to stay focused on academics and to improve themselves as people. The win-loss results are an indicator of success to the outside world. Sometimes a loss can teach us more than a win. Overcoming adversity can teach us about ourselves.

And, we all know that one great vision can turn a program around...especially when a school is ready to support that program. No one would have considered Ben Davis a success in 1973 when Bob Otolski was hired as head coach, stayed a couple of months, then bolted for IU. BD brought in alumnus Bob Wilbur. The Giants were 97-212-12 as a program. Coach Wilbur began to build the program. That got the attention of Carmel's coach at the time, Dick Dullaghan. Coach D will tell you he first began to realize what BD could be when Wilbur's Giants thumped his 1977 Greyhounds team in Sectional. When he left for stints at Purdue and Army with Jim Young and then decided to come back to high school, Ben Davis ended up being his destination. His vision with a supportive administration that wanted to win and a first-class and innovative weight program combined with the talent always present on the Westside took the remains of the program that Wilbur began to build and created the Ben Davis program as we know it that now has a record of 513-379-12 with nine State Championships.

I think many have hit on what makes a program successful. I think it's also very difficult to break the cycle of losing these days, so I'd define success as focused more on students and outcomes rather than W-L (which is what we tend to look at from the outside as successful).

[temptation]

47 minutes ago, AG said:

Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. 

Wow, why the large discrepancy between the two levels?

[DE]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Come again?

"That's what she said."

49 minutes ago, AG said:

Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. 

Not yelling at you, but WHAT?

[NLCTigerFan07]

1 hour ago, AG said:

Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. 

31 minutes ago, temptation said:

Wow, why the large discrepancy between the two levels?

31 minutes ago, DE said:

Not yelling at you, but WHAT?

I echo these posts .... HOW can the elementary enrollements and Jr/Sr high free and reduced lunches have such a discrepancy?!?!?!

Can any Pioneer folks explain what is going on?

Edited February 18, 2022 by NLCTigerFan07

[scarab527]

17 hours ago, temptation said:

Name a school that is over 50 percent free and reduced lunch and is not in the top half of its class in enrollment and has had long term success.

I’ll wait…

Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. 

[foxbat]

17 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. 

Clocking in at a tad under 65%. 

[DE]

20 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. 

Excellent example.  I believe there are a few more factors that are in play.  It appears he has complete support from upper admin-building admin (philosophy, hiring of staff that teach at MCSC, etc.)

[Muda69]

16 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I have gotten through 4A, 5A and 6A based on the 21-22 DOE Enrollment Data that was posted here on the GID as well as Free/Reduced Lunch % for the high school's based on this website https://www.in.gov/doe/files/2021-school-fr-data.pdf.

Here are the schools that fit your criteria of bottom half of their class by enrollment and over 50% free/reduced lunch.

Everyone - feel free to debate if any of these schools have had "long-term success".

4A

99	Marion	1036	69.33%
105	Connersville	981	50.77%
106	Beech Grove	968	58.01%
112	Indianapolis Washington	906	63.82%
119	Western	838	51.23%
121	Mississinewa	808	53.01%
123	South Bend Washington	801	67.34%
128	South Bend Clay	778	53.60%

 

Per Indiana DOE information shouldn't "4A" Frankfort be on your list:  https://inview.doe.in.gov/schools/1011700997/population

Enrollment: 899   Economically disadvantaged rate:  68%

[ragdoll]

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

Even a "unsuccessful" program can have success if it's providing opportunities for students to use athletics as a basis to stay in school, to stay focused on academics and to improve themselves as people. The win-loss results are an indicator of success to the outside world. Sometimes a loss can teach us more than a win. Overcoming adversity can teach us about ourselves.

And, we all know that one great vision can turn a program around...especially when a school is ready to support that program. No one would have considered Ben Davis a success in 1973 when Bob Otolski was hired as head coach, stayed a couple of months, then bolted for IU. BD brought in alumnus Bob Wilbur. The Giants were 97-212-12 as a program. Coach Wilbur began to build the program. That got the attention of Carmel's coach at the time, Dick Dullaghan. Coach D will tell you he first began to realize what BD could be when Wilbur's Giants thumped his 1977 Greyhounds team in Sectional. When he left for stints at Purdue and Army with Jim Young and then decided to come back to high school, Ben Davis ended up being his destination. His vision with a supportive administration that wanted to win and a first-class and innovative weight program combined with the talent always present on the Westside took the remains of the program that Wilbur began to build and created the Ben Davis program as we know it that now has a record of 513-379-12 with nine State Championships.

I think many have hit on what makes a program successful. I think it's also very difficult to break the cycle of losing these days, so I'd define success as focused more on students and outcomes rather than W-L (which is what we tend to look at from the outside as successful).

My first exposure to serious football was my best friend's much older brother playing for Coach Wilbur at BD. 

[NLCTigerFan07]

50 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Per Indiana DOE information shouldn't "4A" Frankfort be on your list:  https://inview.doe.in.gov/schools/1011700997/population

Enrollment: 899   Economically disadvantaged rate:  68%

That is not the source I was using nor the metric we were using here. We were using % of Free/Reduced lunch. I provided my source previously. Frankfort High School had a 41.66% mark for Free/Reduced lunch.

Besides, doesn't really add the the discussion. They would fit right into @temptation arguement that if a school is in the bottom half of their class by enrollment, and above 50% free/reduced lunch, they likely do not see sustained success.

[temptation]

1 hour ago, scarab527 said:

Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. 

Helluva job by Coach Mason.  Possibly the hardest working coach in the state.  Kudos to him.

[NLCTigerFan07]

18 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I have gotten through 4A, 5A and 6A based on the 21-22 DOE Enrollment Data that was posted here on the GID as well as Free/Reduced Lunch % for the high school's based on this website https://www.in.gov/doe/files/2021-school-fr-data.pdf.

Here are the schools that fit your criteria of bottom half of their class by enrollment and over 50% free/reduced lunch.

Everyone - feel free to debate if any of these schools have had "long-term success".

6A

21	Southport	2379	69.22%
22	Perry Meridian	2373	58.50%
23	Portage	2269	55.92%
24	Lawrence Central	2245	64.11%
27	Lafayette Jefferson	2153	61.71%
28	Indianapolis Arsenal Tech	2111	67.18%

5A

49	Hammond Morton	1729	53.46%
56	Mishawaka	1584	51.21%
61	Michigan City	1526	71.01%
62	Fort Wayne North Side	1513	55.72%

4A

99	Marion	1036	69.33%
105	Connersville	981	50.77%
106	Beech Grove	968	58.01%
112	Indianapolis Washington	906	63.82%
119	Western	838	51.23%
121	Mississinewa	808	53.01%
123	South Bend Washington	801	67.34%
128	South Bend Clay	778	53.60%

Just looking at it, Mishawaka (4 sectional titles in 5A since 2015), Mississinewa (3 sectional titles since 2017) and Michigan City (3 sectional titles since 2017) are the only ones who I would classify as successful. Marion had a good run with two Regional Championships in 2018 and 2020. Lafayette Jefferson has struggled in their sectionals with tough matchups usually including either Carmel or Merrillville.

Follow up to my previous post. Here are the schools that fit the @temptation criteria in 1A, 2A and 3A

3A

161	Calumet	622	65.02%
184	West Vigo	525	53.96%
190	River Forest	511	68.66%

2A

227	Switzerland County	428	50.12%
236	Elwood	410	56.38%
244	Lake Station Edison	388	70.23%
245	LaVille	388	53.28%
246	North Knox	388	54.81%

1A

289	North White	272	73.68%
295	Culver	255	51.02%
298	Union City	246	55.22%

Of these schools, the only ones you could even give remote consideration to as being "long-term successful" in the last decade would be:
LaVille (2 Sectional Championships since 2017 with 4 other Sectional Championship appeareances and a 70-31 record since Coach Hostrawser took over) 
Calumet (Sectional title in 2020, winning record last 4 seasons)

You'd have STRETCH arguement for North Knox (no postseason championships, but doesn't help being in the sectionals they've been in).

Edited February 18, 2022 by NLCTigerFan07

[psaboy]

4 hours ago, BTF said:

Maybe you were just being sarcastic, but the term ghetto is a disservice to those who still live in the Snider district. Not everyone needs to live in the Homestead, Carroll, and Leo districts to validate their status in life. 

Fun fact: There's more money in St. Joe Township (Snider) than Perry (Carroll) and Aboite (Homestead) even though Aboite is home to the wealthiest zip code in the state. Disclaimer: That stat was from 4 or 5 years ago..........not sure if it still holds true. 

It was a bit on the sarcasm side. The area has changed for sure, but definitely not a "white flight" area for sure. Can I still say that??

[Muda69]

2 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

That is not the source I was using nor the metric we were using here. We were using % of Free/Reduced lunch. I provided my source previously. Frankfort High School had a 41.66% mark for Free/Reduced lunch.

Economically disadvantaged rate = Free/Reduced Lunch rate.  Probably also includes those on free/reduced textbooks as well.  That percentage used to be labeled as such on the Indiana DOE website, but "economically disadvantaged" is the new PC term.

 

[BDGiant93]

4 hours ago, ragdoll said:

My first exposure to serious football was my best friend's much older brother playing for Coach Wilbur at BD. 

Coach Wilbur sometimes gets overlooked (Used to by me) until I actually educated myself on his years here and what happened prior to his arrival. BD had a total of six winning seasons prior to his arrival form 1937-1972. In 1972, they went 0-10. He went 59-53 here and strung together five straight winning seasons.

[Purdue Pete]

8 hours ago, AG said:

Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. 

So the 2 keys are 1) be a 1A school and 2) have Jack Kiser

got it

[BTF]

4 hours ago, psaboy said:

It was a bit on the sarcasm side. The area has changed for sure, but definitely not a "white flight" area for sure. Can I still say that??

Lol. Yeah, you can say that. It's definitely more blue collar than it was 30 years ago. Many white collar families in the area send their kids to Bishop Dwenger, Concordia, and Blackhawk Christian. 

And for anyone wondering, the money comment about the Snider district is mainly due to the amount of homes in St. Joe Township. Per capita income certainly isn't what it is in the outlaying districts. 

Back in the 80's, I imagine that Snider was probably in the top half of 5a in enrollment. But as other communities grew, Snider's enrollment shrunk. So they were probably in the bottom half sometime in the late 90's, and certainly toward the bottom their last ten years in the big school division. Free lunch rate was probably in the teens in the 80's and slowly crept up to where we are now in the 40's. That being said, Snider is where they belong at the 5a level, but will gladly compete with the 6a big boys with any opportunity they get. They'll be good in 2022, but whether they are 'Snider of old' good remains to be seen. 

[temptation]

3 hours ago, BTF said:

Lol. Yeah, you can say that. It's definitely more blue collar than it was 30 years ago. Many white collar families in the area send their kids to Bishop Dwenger, Concordia, and Blackhawk Christian. 

And for anyone wondering, the money comment about the Snider district is mainly due to the amount of homes in St. Joe Township. Per capita income certainly isn't what it is in the outlaying districts. 

Back in the 80's, I imagine that Snider was probably in the top half of 5a in enrollment. But as other communities grew, Snider's enrollment shrunk. So they were probably in the bottom half sometime in the late 90's, and certainly toward the bottom their last ten years in the big school division. Free lunch rate was probably in the teens in the 80's and slowly crept up to where we are now in the 40's. That being said, Snider is where they belong at the 5a level, but will gladly compete with the 6a big boys with any opportunity they get. They'll be good in 2022, but whether they are 'Snider of old' good remains to be seen. 

Paging @Footballking16…

[ragdoll]

On 2/18/2022 at 3:32 PM, BDGiant93 said:

Coach Wilbur sometimes gets overlooked (Used to by me) until I actually educated myself on his years here and what happened prior to his arrival. BD had a total of six winning seasons prior to his arrival form 1937-1972. In 1972, they went 0-10. He went 59-53 here and strung together five straight winning seasons.

And a missed xp away from NFL Hall of Famer Morten Andersen in 1977 semistate against Reitz of maybe moving on to the championship.

[AG]

On 2/18/2022 at 8:58 AM, BTF said:

Great sports programs at Pioneer. They could make a case for best in the state pound for pound. 

Oh definitely, especially the girl's volleyball, basketball, and softball programs. They probably are, pound for pound, the best public school athletically in the state in the last 10 years, definitely in the last 5.