Blue Bloods - Indiana High School Football

[temptation]

21 hours ago, BTF said:

This topic intrigued me after seeing that IU basketball was still considered a Blue Blood. A Final Four appearance in the last 20 years kept their status in tact...........until now. They've officially dropped off the charts. Who are the high school football Blue Bloods? What qualifies a team as a Blue Blood? What does a team have to do the maintain that status? The following is my perspective:

Qualifications:

One state title. Two semi-state titles. Five regional titles. Ten sectional titles. 

Maintenance: Last 15 years

One state finals appearance. Two semi-state appearances. Four sectional titles.

1A: Adams Central, Sheridan, and South Putnam.

2A: Mater Dei, Memorial, Luers, Scecina, LLC, Linton-Stockton, and Pioneer

3A: Heritage Hills, Ritter, Southridge, West Lafayette, and Western Boone.

4A: Chatard, Roncalli, Reitz, Lowell, and St. Joe

5A: Columbus East, Dwenger, Snider, Cathedral, New Pal, Valpo, and Zionsville

6A: Ben Davis, Carmel, Center Grove, Penn, Warren Central, and Westfield

Teams left out that surprised me: Avon, Hobart, Jasper, and Merrillville. 

Hobart gets back in with a sectional title any time over the next few years. Merrillville gets in with a state finals appearance, which will be more achievable at the 5A level. 

 

I'll only speak to what I think I know well (I know maybe a shock for many of you), and use judgment rather than data.

In my opinion, the only 6A blue bloods are the four MIC schools and Penn, but the Kingsmen are fading fast.  They are trending in the wrong direction and a couple more poor years and they are bounced off my list.

I'm just not sure you can use measurables like sectional and regional titles as a barometer due to the HUGE imbalance of strength throughout the state.  A sectional/regional title for Penn does not carry the same weight as one for the four teams mentioned above.  I'd say the same for Carmel actually, until recently.

Edited April 5, 2022 by temptation

[BTF]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

I'll only speak to what I think I know well (I know maybe a shock for many of you), and use judgment rather than data.

In my opinion, the only 6A blue bloods are the four MIC schools and Penn, but the Kingsmen are fading fast.  They are trending in the wrong direction and a couple more poor years and they are bounced off my list.

I'm just not sure you can use measurables like sectional and regional titles as a barometer due to the HUGE imbalance of strength throughout the state.  A sectional/regional title for Penn does not carry the same weight as one for the four teams mentioned above.  I'd say the same for Carmel actually, until recently.

I think Penn has the resources to right the ship. They're not on the hot seat quite yet in my opinion. One sectional title in the last four years isn't a good look, but is that enough to erase decades of dominance and five state titles? If you go back a decade, they have two semi-state titles, five regional titles, and six sectional titles. They were one point removed from from a third state title appearance. And they were very competitive against Center Grove in the 2015 state title game. I think the better (not by much) team won, but a bounce here or there could have changed that outcome. 

I took into consideration the strength of schedules in Indy when coming up with my list. I was pleasantly pleased to find that the traditional MIC powers were not affected by any of the criteria. Is there another MIC team that you think could be a Blue Blood had they played in a northern conference? Maybe Avon?

[WCGrad92]

23 hours ago, BTF said:

This topic intrigued me after seeing that IU basketball was still considered a Blue Blood. A Final Four appearance in the last 20 years kept their status in tact...........until now. They've officially dropped off the charts. Who are the high school football Blue Bloods? What qualifies a team as a Blue Blood? What does a team have to do the maintain that status? The following is my perspective:

Qualifications:

One state title. Two semi-state titles. Five regional titles. Ten sectional titles. 

Maintenance: Last 15 years

One state finals appearance. Two semi-state appearances. Four sectional titles.

1A: Adams Central, Sheridan, and South Putnam.

2A: Mater Dei, Memorial, Luers, Scecina, LLC, Linton-Stockton, and Pioneer

3A: Heritage Hills, Ritter, Southridge, West Lafayette, and Western Boone.

4A: Chatard, Roncalli, Reitz, Lowell, and St. Joe

5A: Columbus East, Dwenger, Snider, Cathedral, New Pal, Valpo, and Zionsville

6A: Ben Davis, Carmel, Center Grove, Penn, Warren Central, and Westfield

Teams left out that surprised me: Avon, Hobart, Jasper, and Merrillville. 

Hobart gets back in with a sectional title any time over the next few years. Merrillville gets in with a state finals appearance, which will be more achievable at the 5A level. 

 

If criteria is the line after the Maintenance line , then Monrovia would be considered.  SF Runner Up in 2009, SS Runner Up in 2014, State Champ in 2015, SS Runner Up in 2016.  that 1 State Title, 2 Semi State Titles, 4 Regional Titles and 4 Sectional Titles within 15 years.

[Goose Liver]

18 hours ago, BTF said:

Maybe an exception given to Hobart, Jimtown, Tri-West, and Franklin Central? Four state titles each for those programs. 

Gibson Southern's four sectional titles fell well short of the required ten. They check all the boxes for recent success, but no where on the radar historically. 

Hobart 12 trips downstate,,,,runner up 8 times.  (70's, 80's, 90's ....)

[BTF]

52 minutes ago, WCGrad92 said:

If criteria is the line after the Maintenance line , then Monrovia would be considered.  SF Runner Up in 2009, SS Runner Up in 2014, State Champ in 2015, SS Runner Up in 2016.  that 1 State Title, 2 Semi State Titles, 4 Regional Titles and 4 Sectional Titles within 15 years.

I think Monrovia makes a good case for "successful programs in recent memory." Their success started thirteen seasons ago. Definitely a Blue Blood if they keep it up for seven more years. 

[BTF]

48 minutes ago, Goose Liver said:

Hobart 12 trips downstate,,,,runner up 8 times.  (70's, 80's, 90's ....)

A sectional championship in 2022 checks all the boxes. Still a sickening thought not to include them NOW. 

[temptation]

34 minutes ago, BTF said:

I think Monrovia makes a good case for "successful programs in recent memory." Their success started thirteen seasons ago. Definitely a Blue Blood if they keep it up for seven more years. 

New Pal agrees.

[BTF]

4 minutes ago, temptation said:

New Pal agrees.

New Pal's run of sectional titles in '87, '89, & '90 put them over the hump. Most of their success came after 2004. 

[Sledge]

Fun exercise. To me, it seems that the term "blueblood" has turned into what some people would consider a power program. 

I feel like "blueblood" should be the best of the best. Maybe 5-10 programs statewide, not per class

Off the top of my head: Carmel, Warren Central, Ben Davis, Center Grove, Cathedral, Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Bishop Luers, Andrean, Lafayette Central Catholic

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sledge

[BTF]

14 minutes ago, Sledge said:

Fun exercise. To me, it seems that the term "blueblood" has turned into what some people would consider a power program. 

I feel like "blueblood" should be the best of the best. Maybe 5-10 programs statewide, not per class

Off the top of my head: Carmel, Warren Central, Ben Davis, Center Grove, Cathedral, Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Bishop Luers, Andrean, Lafayette Central Catholic

Best of the best over a specific period of time? I like your list as a starting point, all locks for sure. But there are other power programs that don't have the luxury of 3000+ students or unlimited boundaries. Pound for pound should be taken into consideration. How would Pioneer or Adams Central do if they had 3000 students? They'd give the MIC powers a run for their money. And you can't discount what Penn, Snider, Hobart, and Dwenger have achieved over four decades. 

[foxbat]

55 minutes ago, Sledge said:

Fun exercise. To me, it seems that the term "blueblood" has turned into what some people would consider a power program. 

I feel like "blueblood" should be the best of the best. Maybe 5-10 programs statewide, not per class

Off the top of my head: Carmel, Warren Central, Ben Davis, Center Grove, Cathedral, Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Bishop Luers, Andrean, Lafayette Central Catholic

I think you'd have to add Pioneer to that mix. 

LCC and Pioneer have often been the ones to eliminate each other in sectional or regional play, so despite the strength of program, they sometimes never made it out of sections due to the eventual state champ.  Since 2009, the last 13 seasons, LCC and Pioneer have met in post season eight times and eliminated each other ... and in four seasons they were in different classes, so they couldn't meet.  In four of those eight seasons, they entered post season as #1/#2 and in another two they were both in the Top 3/4.  Pioneer's early exits from post season weren't due to a mishap or weak schedule that caught up with them ... in some cases, they played the state championship game in the first or second game of the post season.

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Best of the best over a specific period of time? I like your list as a starting point, all locks for sure. But there are other power programs that don't have the luxury of 3000+ students or unlimited boundaries. Pound for pound should be taken into consideration. How would Pioneer or Adams Central do if they had 3000 students? They'd give the MIC powers a run for their money. And you can't discount what Penn, Snider, Hobart, and Dwenger have achieved over four decades. 

Pioneer definitely fits in the pound-for-pound group!

[XStar]

On 4/4/2022 at 10:06 AM, BTF said:

This topic intrigued me after seeing that IU basketball was still considered a Blue Blood. A Final Four appearance in the last 20 years kept their status in tact...........until now. They've officially dropped off the charts. Who are the high school football Blue Bloods? What qualifies a team as a Blue Blood? What does a team have to do the maintain that status? The following is my perspective:

Qualifications:

One state title. Two semi-state titles. Five regional titles. Ten sectional titles. 

Maintenance: Last 15 years

One state finals appearance. Two semi-state appearances. Four sectional titles.

1A: Adams Central, Sheridan, and South Putnam.

2A: Mater Dei, Memorial, Luers, Scecina, LLC, Linton-Stockton, and Pioneer

3A: Heritage Hills, Ritter, Southridge, West Lafayette, and Western Boone.

4A: Chatard, Roncalli, Reitz, Lowell, and St. Joe

5A: Columbus East, Dwenger, Snider, Cathedral, New Pal, Valpo, and Zionsville

6A: Ben Davis, Carmel, Center Grove, Penn, Warren Central, and Westfield

Teams left out that surprised me: Avon, Hobart, Jasper, and Merrillville. 

Hobart gets back in with a sectional title any time over the next few years. Merrillville gets in with a state finals appearance, which will be more achievable at the 5A level. 

 

Are you just listing their current classification?  Some teams had success but at a lower level than where they are here. 

[eschnur66]

@BTF what Memorial team is listed in the 2A list?

[TigerFan20]

30 minutes ago, eschnur66 said:

@BTF what Memorial team is listed in the 2A list?

Evansville 

[eschnur66]

13 minutes ago, TigerFan20 said:

Evansville 

I cannot figure out why they keep showing up in 2A?

[TigerFan20]

1 minute ago, eschnur66 said:

I cannot figure out why they keep showing up in 2A?

Not to be rude, but I believe he thinks we are a 2A school 

[eschnur66]

1 minute ago, TigerFan20 said:

Not to be rude, but I believe he thinks we are a 2A school 

Yeah ... I can attest to the inaccuracy of that!

[BTF]

2 hours ago, XStar said:

Are you just listing their current classification?  Some teams had success but at a lower level than where they are here. 

Yes, I'm just going by where they are currently. Not necessarily what class they were in when they had most of their success. 

44 minutes ago, TigerFan20 said:

Evansville 

Correct

[tango]

1 hour ago, eschnur66 said:

Yeah ... I can attest to the inaccuracy of that!

I tried to tell him yesterday. Its a good topic so now I'm just ignoring it..   

[Gatorguy]

I threw together a spreadsheet tabulating schools points by number of sectional, regional etc. titles.

Is there an easy way to post an excel spreadsheet here?

 

[BTF]

While on the road today, I tuned into ESPNU. Coincidently, they were discussing the importance of Indiana basketball becoming relevant again. They were referring to the Hoosiers as a Blue Blood and that college basketball isn't the same when they aren't in the mix. I thought they made a very good point, but I'll reconfigure their point into high school football:

"High school football is better when ___________ is playing at a high level and competing for the championship." This is how they were defining Blue Blood status. I thought this was an interesting way to look at it. 

Hobart and Penn would be good examples to fill in that blank. What about Bloomington South. You don't even need numbers and stats to come up with a list using that method. 

[BTF]

2 hours ago, tango said:

I tried to tell him yesterday. Its a good topic so now I'm just ignoring it..   

I see that now. I researched a lot of schools in putting this together. There's bound to be a typo hear and there. Leave it to someone from Northeast Indiana to screw up the classification of a school in SW Indiana!

[temptation]

32 minutes ago, BTF said:

While on the road today, I tuned into ESPNU. Coincidently, they were discussing the importance of Indiana basketball becoming relevant again. They were referring to the Hoosiers as a Blue Blood and that college basketball isn't the same when they aren't in the mix. I thought they made a very good point, but I'll reconfigure their point into high school football:

"High school football is better when ___________ is playing at a high level and competing for the championship." This is how they were defining Blue Blood status. I thought this was an interesting way to look at it. 

Hobart and Penn would be good examples to fill in that blank. What about Bloomington South. You don't even need numbers and stats to come up with a list using that method. 

LOL.  I love the “college basketball is better when” take by all of the talking heads.  

College basketball is the last great hope for the underdog/little guy.  The St. Peter’s, FGCU, VCU, George Mason’s and old Butler teams come to mind.  That is why the casual fan who doesn’t care about basketball, or the regular season tunes in every March (plus the gambling element, lol).

The little guy has zero to no chance in high school or college football.  Hell, the closest thing we’ve had in the playoff era (Cincinnati) got their doors blown off  in the CFP and just became another victim of the vaunted SEC.

I will fill in the blank with my honest opinion…

"High school/college football is better when TEAMS FROM MULTIPLE GEOGRAPHIC AREAS are playing at a high level and competing for the championship." 
 

College basketball has this figured out (though the Big Ten/Pac 12’s dry spell is getting concerning).  The sport doesn’t “need” Indiana.  The Big Ten leads in college basketball attendance numbers annually despite the Hoosiers’ irrelevance.

Now, high school/college football?  There is a real concerning trend that has developed.  
 

NO ONE OUTSIDE OF THE SEC/CENTRAL INDY has a realistic shot at the big prize.

We can debate why all day, perhaps another conversation for another day…but the parallels are eerily similar and cannot be ignored.

Just my two cents.

Edited April 6, 2022 by temptation

[tango]

9 hours ago, BTF said:

I see that now. I researched a lot of schools in putting this together. There's bound to be a typo hear and there. Leave it to someone from Northeast Indiana to screw up the classification of a school in SW Indiana!

No worries. As I said, good topic to get us through the off-season...

[DE]

11 hours ago, BTF said:

I see that now. I researched a lot of schools in putting this together. There's bound to be a typo hear and there. Leave it to someone from Northeast Indiana to screw up the classification of a school in SW Indiana!

Thank you for doing this.  This is interesting off season discussion.