Blue Bloods - Indiana High School Football

[NLCTigerFan07]

3 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

Alright I will put them in there

I mean... I don't know how you can't lol

[BTF]

3 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I mean... I don't know how you can't lol

"Lol" was my reaction as well. It just kind of left me speechless. 

Giving credit where credit is due, his list included some really good programs. I just don't know how you can include the likes of Bloomington South and Center Grove, but not Luers, Dwenger, and Snider. At the end of the day, I think there are approximately 25 programs that could make a case for Blue Blood status. The best post I've seen so far is the spreadsheet that was derived from a point system. 

1. Chatard

2. Cathedral

3. Luers

4. Carmel

5. Ben Davis

6. Roncalli

7. Dwenger

8. Penn

9. Sheridan

10. Hobart

11. Warren Central

12. Ritter

13. Snider

14. LLC

15. Center Grove

16. Jimtown

17. Andrean

18. Mater Dei

19. Tri-West Hendricks

20. Northwood

21. Evansville Memorial

22. Adams Central

23. West Layfayette

24. Franklin Central

25. Columbus East

That's a pretty good Top 25 if you ask me. Some will ask where Bloomington South, Pioneer, and New Pal reside. All three would be included in a Top 30. Zionsville comes in at 32, Lowell at 35, and Heritage Hills at 36. I guess we can all look at the ranking and come up with our own conclusion as to who is a Blue Blood and who isn't. 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, BTF said:

"Lol" was my reaction as well. It just kind of left me speechless. 

Giving credit where credit is due, his list included some really good programs. I just don't know how you can include the likes of Bloomington South and Center Grove, but not Luers, Dwenger, and Snider. At the end of the day, I think there are approximately 25 programs that could make a case for Blue Blood status. The best post I've seen so far is the spreadsheet that was derived from a point system. 

1. Chatard

2. Cathedral

3. Luers

4. Carmel

5. Ben Davis

6. Roncalli

7. Dwenger

8. Penn

9. Sheridan

10. Hobart

11. Warren Central

12. Ritter

13. Snider

14. LLC

15. Center Grove

16. Jimtown

17. Andrean

18. Mater Dei

19. Tri-West Hendricks

20. Northwood

21. Evansville Memorial

22. Adams Central

23. West Layfayette

24. Franklin Central

25. Columbus East

That's a pretty good Top 25 if you ask me. Some will ask where Bloomington South, Pioneer, and New Pal reside. All three would be included in a Top 30. Zionsville comes in at 32, Lowell at 35, and Heritage Hills at 36. I guess we can all look at the ranking and come up with our own conclusion as to who is a Blue Blood and who isn't. 

Where do you put a school like Evansville Reitz when it comes to blue-blood status? Evansville Reitz been playing football forever and has a ton of mythical (and legit) state titles pre-IHSAA era and at one point (not sure still this case) had the 2nd most wins in Indiana History. Won a few state titles this century as well. 

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Where do you put a school like Evansville Reitz when it comes to blue-blood status? Evansville Reitz been playing football forever and has a ton of mythical (and legit) state titles pre-IHSAA era and at one point (not sure still this case) had the 2nd most wins in Indiana History. Won a few state titles this century as well. 

According to Gatorguy's spreadsheet, Reitz comes in at 36. I had Reitz in my original 33 (no particular order). I think there are about 40 schools out there who would stake their claim to being a Blue Blood. That tells me that recent success needs to be taken into account to get that number down to 20. 

[Donnie Baker]

On 4/14/2022 at 12:24 PM, Ballhawk said:

It's not the size of the man in the fight, but the fight in the size of a man.  That little front 7 were some pretty darn good football players.

I don’t know any football poems or stuff like that. I do know North Judsons was one of the hardest hitting teams I’ve ever seen. Second and foremost they had 4 1,000 yard rushers in that pulley bone offense. I gotta go 

[Indiana Fan]

3 hours ago, BTF said:

"Lol" was my reaction as well. It just kind of left me speechless. 

Giving credit where credit is due, his list included some really good programs. I just don't know how you can include the likes of Bloomington South and Center Grove, but not Luers, Dwenger, and Snider. At the end of the day, I think there are approximately 25 programs that could make a case for Blue Blood status. The best post I've seen so far is the spreadsheet that was derived from a point system. 

1. Chatard

2. Cathedral

3. Luers

4. Carmel

5. Ben Davis

6. Roncalli

7. Dwenger

8. Penn

9. Sheridan

10. Hobart

11. Warren Central

12. Ritter

13. Snider

14. LLC

15. Center Grove

16. Jimtown

17. Andrean

18. Mater Dei

19. Tri-West Hendricks

20. Northwood

21. Evansville Memorial

22. Adams Central

23. West Layfayette

24. Franklin Central

25. Columbus East

That's a pretty good Top 25 if you ask me. Some will ask where Bloomington South, Pioneer, and New Pal reside. All three would be included in a Top 30. Zionsville comes in at 32, Lowell at 35, and Heritage Hills at 36. I guess we can all look at the ranking and come up with our own conclusion as to who is a Blue Blood and who isn't. 

I deeply apologize. I didn’t realize this was the end all list of the blue blood programs of Indiana high school football. I need to do better.

[Footballking16]

3 hours ago, BTF said:

According to Gatorguy's spreadsheet, Reitz comes in at 36. I had Reitz in my original 33 (no particular order). I think there are about 40 schools out there who would stake their claim to being a Blue Blood. That tells me that recent success needs to be taken into account to get that number down to 20. 

How much of that spreadsheet accounts for pre-class football? I think you need at least 4-5 decades of some kind of sustained success if you’re trying to define a blue-blood program. I realize that may not be possible in Indiana high school football given all the consolidations and closures of schools over the years, but I don’t think recent success is necessarily a strong indicator of blue-blood status. There’s no question that a school like Center Grove is the premier football school in the state of Indiana right now. But historically, not sure I’d even consider them to be a top 10 big class program as it stands now. 20-30 years from now that may be a different story.

[Robert]

16 hours ago, BTF said:

"Lol" was my reaction as well. It just kind of left me speechless. 

Giving credit where credit is due, his list included some really good programs. I just don't know how you can include the likes of Bloomington South and Center Grove, but not Luers, Dwenger, and Snider. At the end of the day, I think there are approximately 25 programs that could make a case for Blue Blood status. The best post I've seen so far is the spreadsheet that was derived from a point system. 

1. Chatard

2. Cathedral

3. Luers

4. Carmel

5. Ben Davis

6. Roncalli

7. Dwenger

8. Penn

9. Sheridan

10. Hobart

11. Warren Central

12. Ritter

13. Snider

14. LLC

15. Center Grove

16. Jimtown

17. Andrean

18. Mater Dei

19. Tri-West Hendricks

20. Northwood

21. Evansville Memorial

22. Adams Central

23. West Layfayette

24. Franklin Central

25. Columbus East

That's a pretty good Top 25 if you ask me. Some will ask where Bloomington South, Pioneer, and New Pal reside. All three would be included in a Top 30. Zionsville comes in at 32, Lowell at 35, and Heritage Hills at 36. I guess we can all look at the ranking and come up with our own conclusion as to who is a Blue Blood and who isn't. 

This is the list should be used to shut the P/P/P/C/O/C/V/OB complainer-people up.  

13 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

I deeply apologize. I didn’t realize this was the end all list of the blue blood programs of Indiana high school football. I need to do better.

A true fan would recognize that the whole state has good teams. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Robert

[gonzoron]

41 minutes ago, Robert said:

P/P/P/C/O/C/V/OB complainer-people

Can you translate that into English?

[Robert]

6 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Can you translate that into English?

P/P/P/C/O/C/V/OB

Private, Parochial, Protestant, Christian, Other, Charter, Voucher (or something else that fuzzied up), Open Boundary...etc. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Robert

[Bash Riprock]

13 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

How much of that spreadsheet accounts for pre-class football? I think you need at least 4-5 decades of some kind of sustained success if you’re trying to define a blue-blood program. I realize that may not be possible in Indiana high school football given all the consolidations and closures of schools over the years, but I don’t think recent success is necessarily a strong indicator of blue-blood status. There’s no question that a school like Center Grove is the premier football school in the state of Indiana right now. But historically, not sure I’d even consider them to be a top 10 big class program as it stands now. 20-30 years from now that may be a different story.

Based on that definition, Duke would not be a blue blood in college basketball.........nor would Clemson be considered in college football.  

2 decades is not enough???

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Based on that definition, Duke would not be a blue blood in college basketball.........nor would Clemson be considered in college football.  

2 decades is not enough???

huh?  really?

[Footballking16]

17 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Based on that definition, Duke would not be a blue blood in college basketball.........nor would Clemson be considered in college football.  

2 decades is not enough???

Clemson is nowhere close to being considered a blue-blood in college football. Not even close. They are an elite program right now but not even in top 15 or top 20 all time. 

Duke has been good at basketball a lot longer than 2 decades. K was there nearly 40 years. 

[gonzoron]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

but not even in top 15 or top 20 all time

Strongly disagree.

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Strongly disagree.

You could possibly lay claim to top 20 simply on recency bias, but there's no way there are top 15 historically and they aren't anywhere close to blue-blood status.

[Robert]

47 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Strongly disagree.

I agree with you.  Some people need to get the almanacs out.... Maybe me, and foggy memory, but Duke has been good for 4 decades and Clemson has had some bad years, but has been good in the last 4 decades.

[gonzoron]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

I agree with you.  Some people need to get the almanacs out.... Maybe me, and foggy memory, but Duke has been good for 4 decades and Clemson has had some bad years, but has been good in the last 4 decades.

Not to mention that the most prestigious award in college football was named after one of their former Coaches. Who happened to be lured away from them after Clemson beat Georgia Tech 77-0.

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

I agree with you.  Some people need to get the almanacs out.... Maybe me, and foggy memory, but Duke has been good for 4 decades and Clemson has had some bad years, but has been good in the last 4 decades.

Clemson has been one of the best 2-3 programs the last decade and won a title in 81. They were .500 throughout the 60s and 70's. They had some 10 win seasons in the 80's and 90's but also a ton of 6-5, 7-4 type seasons as well, all the way up until hiring Dabo. Top of my head, programs who are historically better than Clemson throughout the duration of college football:

Alabama

Ohio State

USC

Oklahoma

Notre Dame

Those are the 5 I considered Blue Blood

Texas

Nebraska

Michigan

Georgia

Penn State

Florida

Tennessee 

FSU

Miami

Auburn

There's another 10 who are all historically better than Clemson. 

[Bash Riprock]

2 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Clemson is nowhere close to being considered a blue-blood in college football. Not even close. They are an elite program right now but not even in top 15 or top 20 all time. 

Duke has been good at basketball a lot longer than 2 decades. K was there nearly 40 years. 

Just curious as to why it takes a half century of sustained top performance to be considered a blue blood.  I understand an extended period...but 40-50 years??

Coach K was there 40 years....but his Duke program was nowhere near a blue blood program during his first decade.  So even if a blue blood for 3 decades, he doesn't meet your 40-50 years criteria.

BTW, regarding Clemson, and many other programs....I guess it boils down to who is defining blood bloods.  I look at the articles that define 8 schools as blue bloods and one could argue that based on the last 2 decades, they should be falling off. Schools such as Nebraska, USC, Texas, etc.  But using the criteria below, Clemson is considered a blue blood.

https://lastwordonsports.com/collegefootball/2020/03/06/top-25-college-football-blue-bloods/

https://www.offtackleempire.com/2020/1/24/21078249/what-defines-a-football-blue-blood-in-2020

 

[Footballking16]

2 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Just curious as to why it takes a half century of sustained top performance to be considered a blue blood.  I understand an extended period...but 40-50 years??

Because being considered a blue-blood is an ultra-exclusive title. If we recognized every program who has shown a decade worth of sustained success, you'd have 30 something blue-blood programs. It would diminish the title.

 

3 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Coach K was there 40 years....but his Duke program was nowhere near a blue blood program during his first decade.  So even if a blue blood for 3 decades, he doesn't meet your 40-50 years criteria.

Duke is T-4th all-time in national titles. Duke went to 4 Final Fours and had two runner-ups in Coach K's first 10 years. Duke has achieved blue-blood status since K took over in 1980. There isn't a question about it. 

 

6 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

BTW, regarding Clemson, and many other programs....I guess it boils down to who is defining blood bloods.  I look at the articles that define 8 schools as blue bloods and one could argue that based on the last 2 decades, they should be falling off. Schools such as Nebraska, USC, Texas, etc.  But using the criteria below, Clemson is considered a blue blood.

I've never seen Clemson considered a blue-blood in Football. By anybody. I've never seen them listed as a top 10 football program of all-time. By anybody. Because they aren't. Good program, but nowhere near blue-blood status and arguably not even top 15 all-time. The last decade, as good as it has been for them, doesn't change that narrative. Currently an elite program, but they need another 10-15 years of sustained success to even be considered, in my opinion. 

[BTF]

16 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Because being considered a blue-blood is an ultra-exclusive title. If we recognized every program who has shown a decade worth of sustained success, you'd have 30 something blue-blood programs. It would diminish the title.

Good point.

[BTF]

17 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good point.

That being said. What is the criteria? Are we going back to the 80's or just the 90's? 

One state championship

One state championship appearance per decade (80's forward)

Two regional championships per decade (90's forward)

Four sectional titles per decade (90's forward)

 

[Footballking16]

22 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good point.

And that's why it's really hard to do in Indiana High School football unless you are simply establishing them by class or big school/small school. Because unlike college football or basketball there are multiple titles a year to be won. 

[BTF]

These programs have been to the state finals every decade since the 80's. (We're not counting the 2020's): Ben Davis, Dwenger, Luers, Snider, Cathedral, Chatard, Ritter, Roncalli, Northwood, Penn, Tri-West, and Zionsville. 

One state finals appearance per decade eliminates Warren Central and Carmel. Neither of them has representation in the 90's.

Regionals - Northwood eliminated. Only one regional title in the 2010's.

Sectionals - Ritter eliminated. Only three sectional titles in the 90's and 2010's. Tri-West eliminated. The 80's was the only decade they recorded four sectional titles.

So here are the Blue Bloods with regard to THAT criteria: Ben Davis, Dwenger, Luers, Snider, Cathedral, Chatard, Roncalli, Penn, and Zionsville. 

[Bash Riprock]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Because being considered a blue-blood is an ultra-exclusive title. If we recognized every program who has shown a decade worth of sustained success, you'd have 30 something blue-blood programs. It would diminish the title.

 

Duke is T-4th all-time in national titles. Duke went to 4 Final Fours and had two runner-ups in Coach K's first 10 years. Duke has achieved blue-blood status since K took over in 1980. There isn't a question about it. 

 

I've never seen Clemson considered a blue-blood in Football. By anybody. I've never seen them listed as a top 10 football program of all-time. By anybody. Because they aren't. Good program, but nowhere near blue-blood status and arguably not even top 15 all-time. The last decade, as good as it has been for them, doesn't change that narrative. Currently an elite program, but they need another 10-15 years of sustained success to even be considered, in my opinion. 

So...Clemson isn't a blue blood, but Duke became a blue blood the moment Coach K took over the program?......even though it took 11 seasons to win his first title.  He was 85-65 over his first 5 years.  I am not debating they aren't a blue blood program....I am simply saying it took a few years of sustained excellence to become a blue blood.....but not your 40-50 year timeframe criteria.

If you would have read the links, you would have seen where others disagree with you about Clemson.  But they had different  criteria than a half century timeframe, in which I included.  

BTW, I never said a decade....I just don't believe it has to be 40-50 years.  And if we use your criteria, there are example of teams considered blue bloods that were dominant in the earlier period of those 50 years, that are certainly not dominant today.  The authors that believe there are only 8 blue bloods list Nebraska, USC and Michigan in that list.  Based on their performance over the past 10-20 years, I struggle with calling those blue blood programs any longer.

Good discussion....I was just trying to understand your comment about 40-50 years of sustained excellence to be considered a blue blood.