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Conference Realignment - What's Coming in the Next Round?


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6 minutes ago, BTF said:

Disagree. Not with those enrollments. Ben Davis and Warren Central have enough talent in the halls for a good coach to have them contending every single year. 

Then Ben Davis needs to get rid of Jason Simmons then ASAP, he's 25-24 in 4 years at Ben Davis. The enrollment gap between Warren Central and many of the HCC schools is drastically closing as is the talent gap. Warren and BD can no longer just show up and win on talent alone like they could for the last 2-3 decades. 

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45 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Then Ben Davis needs to get rid of Jason Simmons then ASAP, he's 25-24 in 4 years at Ben Davis. The enrollment gap between Warren Central and many of the HCC schools is drastically closing as is the talent gap. Warren and BD can no longer just show up and win on talent alone like they could for the last 2-3 decades. 

I just don't see how you can possibly justify that record , regardless of how you spin it. Coach Simmons is very highly regarded in the coaching community, and his personal reputation, integrity, leadership and organizational skills are widely recognized. But 25-24 at BD and 51-43 overall in 9 seasons is very pedestrian relative to what you would come to expect out of the program. 

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

Disagree. Not with those enrollments. Ben Davis and Warren Central have enough talent in the halls for a good coach to have them contending every single year. 

What’s your definition of “ contending?”

There are 32 teams in 6A, is being in the top 8 (25%) “contending?”

 

6 minutes ago, HHF said:

I just don't see how you can possibly justify that record , regardless of how you spin it. Coach Simmons is very highly regarded in the coaching community, and his personal reputation, integrity, leadership and organizational skills are widely recognized. But 25-24 at BD and 51-43 overall in 9 seasons is very pedestrian relative to what you would come to expect out of the program. 

“But they’ve won their sectional!!!!!”

- @BDGiant93

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2 minutes ago, temptation said:

What’s your definition of “ contending?”

There are 32 teams in 6A, is being in the top 8 (25%) “contending?”

 

“But they’ve won their sectional!!!!!”

- @BDGiant93

Tallest midget syndrome

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

“But they’ve won their sectional!!!!!”

- @BDGiant93

They did win their Sectional. They also won their Regional as underdogs. But, there's no doubt, it was a watered down Sectional. I know that. I'm not stupid. 

Also, Coach Simmons motto the last couple of years has been "the standard is the standard." He knows the nine State Championships on the wall under the scoreboard is the standard.

Edited by BDGiant93
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18 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

I'm not completely writing off Warren Central or Ben Davis or leaving them for dead. I'm just convinced the window where we can expect Warren Central and Ben Davis to automatically be state title contenders every single year has closed. There will be years where both BD and WC have special classes with good talent who absolutely can and may even win it all, but there's too many other programs who have closed the talent gap.

I get what you're saying. It's getting harder to be dominant, and that makes Center Grove's current run pretty remarkable. 

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1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

They did win their Sectional. They also won their Regional as underdogs. But, there's no doubt, it was a watered down Sectional. I know that. I'm not stupid. 

Also, Coach Simmons motto the last couple of years has been "the standard is the standard." He knows the nine State Championships on the wall under the scoreboard is the standard.

But should a school with the resources and enrollment of Ben Davis EVER BE an underdog in the first place?

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5 hours ago, temptation said:

What’s your definition of “ contending?”

Top 4. There is a reason Warren Central (9), Ben Davis (9), and Carmel (9) have 27 state championships between them. Coincidence? I think not. Enrollment? Highly probable. Carmel and Warren Central rank 1 & 2 in enrollment. Ben Davis was 3 or 4 during their run of 9 championships. Let's not pretend that enrollment doesn't play and ENORMOUS factor. 

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3 minutes ago, BTF said:

Top 4. There is a reason Warren Central (9), Ben Davis (9), and Carmel (9) have 27 state championships between them. Coincidence? I think not. Enrollment? Highly probable. Carmel and Warren Central rank 1 & 2 in enrollment. Ben Davis was 3 or 4 during their run of 9 championships. Let's not pretend that enrollment doesn't play and ENORMOUS factor. 

Oh it does.  I’ve gone on record as stating it’s the #1 reason BD and Warren remain “contenders.”

Take 1500-2000 students out of either and you have Arsenal Tech.

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1 minute ago, temptation said:

Oh it does.  I’ve gone on record as stating it’s the #1 reason BD and Warren remain “contenders.”

Take 1500-2000 students out of either and you have Arsenal Tech.

And "others" have gone on record dismissing the advantage that enrollments numbers have. I do give credit to the coaches that built championship teams at those schools. You have to be a good coach to do that. But it is a major advantage nonetheless. 

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16 minutes ago, BTF said:

And "others" have gone on record dismissing the advantage that enrollments numbers have. I do give credit to the coaches that built championship teams at those schools. You have to be a good coach to do that. But it is a major advantage nonetheless. 

BD and Carmel are the only two remaining 6A schools that have a significant enrollment advantage. Warren Central, while still a very big school, isn't as big as it once was in comparison to the rest of 6A. There's now 13 schools within 1,000 students of Warren Central and many are closing the gap rather quickly. They don't have a talent advantage over anybody right now. 10-20 years ago they would frequently line up 3-4 legit D1 prospects on either side of the ball and the game would be over by kick off against all but one or two opponents. That isn't the case anymore and I'm guessing will never be the case again going forward. 

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3 hours ago, BTF said:

And "others" have gone on record dismissing the advantage that enrollments numbers have. 

You & I have disagreed on the topic but not because I don't acknowledge the advantage.  My point is that a coach and a team can't do anything about it so quitcherbitchin about it.  Enrollment disadvantages can be overcome.

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3 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

BD and Carmel are the only two remaining 6A schools that have a significant enrollment advantage. Warren Central, while still a very big school, isn't as big as it once was in comparison to the rest of 6A. There's now 13 schools within 1,000 students of Warren Central and many are closing the gap rather quickly. They don't have a talent advantage over anybody right now. 10-20 years ago they would frequently line up 3-4 legit D1 prospects on either side of the ball and the game would be over by kick off against all but one or two opponents. That isn't the case anymore and I'm guessing will never be the case again going forward. 

Unless I'm mistaking, Warren Central is still ranked second in enrollment behind Carmel. It's Ben Davis that slipped down. 

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

Unless I'm mistaking, Warren Central is still ranked second in enrollment behind Carmel. It's Ben Davis that slipped down. 

You are mistaking.  Carmel and BD have been #1 and #2 for around 15 years.  Both have had over 4000 students since 2007. Warren Central has been close to 4000, but never over.

Carmel 5327

Ben Davis 4557

Warren Central 3868

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15 minutes ago, HoopsCoach said:

You are mistaking.  Carmel and BD have been #1 and #2 for around 15 years.  Both have had over 4000 students since 2007. Warren Central has been close to 4000, but never over.

Carmel 5327

Ben Davis 4557

Warren Central 3868

Thanks for clarifying. I thought something was off about my claim. The source I was using only considered 10-12 for Ben Davis for whatever reason. So those three schools, are in fact, the largest football schools in the state. 

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18 minutes ago, BTF said:

Thanks for clarifying. I thought something was off about my claim. The source I was using only considered 10-12 for Ben Davis for whatever reason. So those three schools, are in fact, the largest football schools in the state. 

Yes, the DOE lists the BD 9th grade center as a separate school in their data and on their INview site (which sucks), so they only list the BD enrollment for grades 10-12.

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3 hours ago, Grover said:

You & I have disagreed on the topic but not because I don't acknowledge the advantage.  My point is that a coach and a team can't do anything about it so quitcherbitchin about it.  Enrollment disadvantages can be overcome.

I agree to an existent. But just put this into perspective, a school that has 3,000 students has 1,500 boys to choose from for football. A school that has 2,600 students has 1,300 students to choose from. That’s 200 more potentially good football players to choose from. You take a school like Carmel or BD, and they are doubling the amount of potential good football players another school might have. Take your best players on your team, and Carmel has 2 of that best player. Yes in can be overcome obviously I’m not stupid, but it sure does help having more boys to choose from.

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20 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

I agree to an existent. But just put this into perspective, a school that has 3,000 students has 1,500 boys to choose from for football. A school that has 2,600 students has 1,300 students to choose from. That’s 200 more potentially good football players to choose from. You take a school like Carmel or BD, and they are doubling the amount of potential good football players another school might have. Take your best players on your team, and Carmel has 2 of that best player. Yes in can be overcome obviously I’m not stupid, but it sure does help having more boys to choose from.

He takes it personally as some sort of discredit to Moore when someone brings up SES/enrollment.

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8 hours ago, temptation said:

He takes it personally as some sort of discredit to Moore when someone brings up SES/enrollment.

No, I just laugh at your SES takes. 

8 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

I agree to an existent. But just put this into perspective, a school that has 3,000 students has 1,500 boys to choose from for football. A school that has 2,600 students has 1,300 students to choose from. That’s 200 more potentially good football players to choose from. You take a school like Carmel or BD, and they are doubling the amount of potential good football players another school might have. Take your best players on your team, and Carmel has 2 of that best player. Yes in can be overcome obviously I’m not stupid, but it sure does help having more boys to choose from.

I don’t think anybody is denying the simple math. I’m just saying nothing is gained by the constant bitching about it. 

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1 hour ago, Grover said:

No, I just laugh at your SES takes. 

I don’t think anybody is denying the simple math. I’m just saying nothing is gained by the constant bitching about it. 

1.  You are in denial of my SES takes despite the data being right in front of your face (well maybe not yours specifically) down in Johnson County.

Your “Center Grove has done it, why can’t everyone” shtick is what I laugh at. There are barriers to success faced by schools that someone in your environment couldn’t take the first step to comprehend and it has nothing to do with youth programs, X’s and O’s and practice “effort.”  
 

There is a reason that coaching turnover is through the roof in general and even more so at schools with low SES numbers.  
 

Just focusing on the two schools mentioned most frequently in this thread, coaches at Warren Central’s two ball sports have left for FRANKLIN CENTRAL.  Ben Davis has had two legends in the ball sports depart for PERRY MERIDIAN and MOUNT VERNON.  
 

Times have changed.

2.  It’s a message board.  Bitching generates conversation.  Don’t be so dense.

 

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9 hours ago, temptation said:

He takes it personally as some sort of discredit to Moore when someone brings up SES/enrollment.

I don't think Grover is taking anything personally, just showing you that your theory is not absolute.  Does Cathedral have an enrollment advantage?  Yet year after year, they are among the very best this state can offer in football.  Moore has also proven there are several other variables in the equation for success....and he has been doing it for a long time.

If the correlation of enrollment to winning championships is that strong, shut the door and turn off the lights, because its already over.  Carmel wins in 6A.  Every year.  Let's also just give the titles out to the largest schools in each class and be done with this....

First it was socioeconomics that was the top reason when it comes to gridiron success....now its enrollment?  Pick one.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

I don't think Grover is taking anything personally, just showing you that your theory is not absolute.  Does Cathedral have an enrollment advantage?  Yet year after year, they are among the very best this state can offer in football.  Moore has also proven there are several other variables in the equation for success....and he has been doing it for a long time.

If the correlation of enrollment to winning championships is that strong, shut the door and turn off the lights, because its already over.  Carmel wins in 6A.  Every year.  Let's also just give the titles out to the largest schools in each class and be done with this....

First it was socioeconomics that was the top reason when it comes to gridiron success....now its enrollment?  Pick one.

 

 

It’s a combination of both.  I’ve said this from day one.

Cathedral is not a public school.  Completely different topic.

You have both, you are an annual contender.  (Carmel)

You have one (SES) but not the other (Center Grove), you are a contender more often than not.

You have one (enrollment) but not the other (Ben Davis, Warren) you are a contender more often than not.

You have neither, you are irrelevant (Tech).

The right coaching staff matters, no doubt but the very definition of “coaching” is much more complex at some places more so than others.

There are exceptions (as @Footballking16loves to point out) but these are pretty proven at the 6A level.

While many students at Center Grove and Carmel are wondering what dessert they are going to order, those at BD, Warren and Tech are simply wondering where their next meal is going to come from.

Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, temptation said:

It’s a combination of both.  I’ve said this from day one.

Cathedral is not a public school.  Completely different topic.

You have both, you are an annual contender.  (Carmel)

You have one (SES) but not the other (Center Grove), you are a contender more often than not.

You have one (enrollment) but not the other (Ben Davis, Warren) you are a contender more often than not.

You have neither, you are irrelevant (Tech).

The right coaching staff matters, no doubt but the very definition of “coaching” is much more complex at some places more so than others.

There are exceptions (as @Footballking16loves to point out) but these are pretty proven at the 6A level.

While many students at Center Grove and Carmel are wondering what dessert they are going to order, those at BD, Warren and Tech are simply wondering where their next meal is going to come from.

Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.

 

 

I know you love to argue for the sake of arguing, and I'm not going to get sucked into it...too much on my work plate.  

If it were solely enrollment and $$, Carmel wins every year.....the disparity would be too much to overcome.  We know that doesn't happen...especially when Carmel is in the southern bracket of the tournament.  They also don't win the MIC title every year....not even close.

BTW, I didn't limit the success equation to just coaching....lots more variables needed for success.

Good to know that CG is only a sporadic contender....😄

Edited by Bash Riprock
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10 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

I agree to an existent. But just put this into perspective, a school that has 3,000 students has 1,500 boys to choose from for football. A school that has 2,600 students has 1,300 students to choose from. That’s 200 more potentially good football players to choose from. You take a school like Carmel or BD, and they are doubling the amount of potential good football players another school might have. Take your best players on your team, and Carmel has 2 of that best player. Yes in can be overcome obviously I’m not stupid, but it sure does help having more boys to choose from.

But at some point, there's a certain threshold where # of boys shouldn't really matter. If you have 1500 boys in your school, that's enough (or should be) to field a more than competitive football team. I don't have exact numbers, but I would imagine that most 6A schools have at least 100+ football players in its program grades 9-12. Some schools might dress 80-100 kids Friday night, but in reality you're really only relying on maybe 40-50 kids who see the field on any given Friday night. If you have 2500+ kids in your school and can't find 40-50 decent to good football players to the point you're not competitive on a Friday night that's either a culture or coaching problem. SES at a 6A school is all window dressing. There's more than enough affluent to middle class schools with 2500+ kids who have average to bad football programs right now.

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