6A Season Outlook--Discuss

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Again define "failure"? What one school deems failure, another school doesn't. Kevin O'shea and Jason Simmons were hired a year apart. While Simmons has the better resume on paper, I don't think you'd find many people who'd agree that Jason Simmons has done a better managing expectations than O'Shea. 

Heading into Year 6, I would have expected OShea would have NC in position to challenge for a conf championship.  They are not in the conversation.  So in my view, the transition has been a failure.  Can that be reversed?  Certainly.  Perhaps this season will be the beginning.  As I mentioned previously, NC should get CA and CG off the schedule.  That's two guaranteed losses that can be turned into wins with a different scheduling approach.  

Edited July 20, 2022 by DT

[Footballking16]

33 minutes ago, DT said:

Heading into Year 6, I would have expected OShea would have NC in position to challenge for a conf championship.  They are not in the conversation.  So in my view, the transition has been a failure.  Can that be reversed?  Certainly.  Perhaps this season will be the beginning.  As I mentioned previously, NC should get CA and CG off the schedule.  That's two guaranteed losses that can be turned into wins with a different scheduling approach.  

Center Grove and Carmel have zero bearing on North Central's ability to win the MIC going forward.

[temptation]

58 minutes ago, DT said:

Heading into Year 6, I would have expected OShea would have NC in position to challenge for a conf championship.  They are not in the conversation.  So in my view, the transition has been a failure.  Can that be reversed?  Certainly.  Perhaps this season will be the beginning.  As I mentioned previously, NC should get CA and CG off the schedule.  That's two guaranteed losses that can be turned into wins with a different scheduling approach.  

Let’s revisit this topic in 4 months.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Center Grove and Carmel have zero bearing on North Central's ability to win the MIC going forward.

I disagree. Continuing to play carmel and center Grove in non-conference regular season play will do nothing but wear down North Central.  They should preserve themselves for conference action by playing winnable non-conference games where they match up well physically. This will help them build up their record and likely enhance turnout.

Edited July 20, 2022 by DT

[Boilernation]

Westfield at 5 is interesting to me. Do they have a lot of starters returning? I have the upmost respect for Coach Gilbert, but the Rock had 3 straight average at best seasons after the 2016 Title. Do they legitimately have enough talent/starters returning? They are losing some serious offensive production from Webster and Hauser. It looks like their offensive all purpose yardage last year was dominated by Seniors. 

[oldtimeqb]

2 hours ago, DT said:

People get upset and take it personally when the word "failure" is used.  But lets call it what it is.  

I can't speak for others, but IMO if you define "failure" in HS football based solely on W-L record, you don't get the point of HS football. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I can't speak for others, but IMO if you define "failure" in HS football based solely on W-L record, you don't get the point of HS football. 

Ultimately we are all evaluated by a series of metrics. If numbers did not count, North Central would have left Krienhagen and his 1 and 29 record in place.

[Piratefan101]

17 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Can’t argue too much with that. I’d think Zionsville would be better than Fishers though?

Any input on teams north of metro Indy? Elkhart the biggest “threat” out of sectional 1 or 2?

Crown point I’m thinking may come out north (1&2) regionals. Even though I’m pulling Elkhart. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Piratefan101

[Bash Riprock]

16 hours ago, DT said:

O'Shea has followed the blue print of Tom Dilley.  Great PP success, failure at a big public.  I just dont see NC having enough to overcome the MIC 6 plus CG and CA.  I read something here on The GID once that inferred that O'Shea's move to NC was more for financial-pension related reasons than for taking on the monumental challenge of making NC a winner in The MIC.  And for the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice/decision.  We all make decisions through the course of our careers for different reasons and with different motivations.  After all these years at NC, OSheas teams and his program still have not developed an identity.  That is a big failure in my view, even more so than the won - loss record.

 

Not sure I'd call O'Shea a "failure".  Last year was tough, but he's had 3 winning seasons out of his 5 at NC, with a sectional title.  NC has lost 2 sectional games during his tenure to WC, by 7 pts or less.  

NC recent history is interesting....Rick Streiff, a great coach, didn't exactly tear it up there and went back to Cathedral.  But its not just a P/P thing.  NC was tough on Mark Haste as well.  Haste was very successful at Tri-West, with a winning program and I believe a couple of state titles.  Haste lasted 3 seasons at NC with only 1 winning season.  Makes me wonder what is in the water at NC for football.

I will say in O'Shea's defense....I noticed much more discipline out of his NC teams during his first couple of years.  I have not seen them play lately to make a comment.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Bash Riprock

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Not sure I'd call O'Shea a "failure".  Last year was tough, but he's had 3 winning seasons out of his 5 at NC, with a sectional title.  NC has lost 2 sectional games during his tenure to WC, by 7 pts or less.  

NC recent history is interesting....Rick Streiff, a great coach, didn't exactly tear it up there and went back to Cathedral.  But its not just a P/P thing.  NC was tough on Mark Haste as well.  Haste was very successful at Tri-West, with a winning program and I believe a couple of state titles.  Haste lasted 3 seasons at NC with only 1 winning season.  Makes me wonder what is in the water at NC for football.

I will say in O'Shea's defense....I noticed much more discipline out of his NC teams during his first couple of years.  I have not seen them play lately to make a comment.

You are welcome to call his tenure whatever you want.

I call it a failure.

It also suggests that highly successful PP coaches struggle outside of the tightly controlled confines of the private school environment.  

[temptation]

4 hours ago, DT said:

I disagree. Continuing to play carmel and center Grove in non-conference regular season play will do nothing but wear down North Central.  They should preserve themselves for conference action by playing winnable non-conference games where they match up well physically. This will help them build up their record and likely enhance turnout.

Outside of the box but what if they drop CG/Carmel and pick up Brebeuf and/or Chatard?

Would they then start “winning” some of those recruiting battles if the scoreboard came out in their favor on Friday night?

3 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Westfield at 5 is interesting to me. Do they have a lot of starters returning? I have the upmost respect for Coach Gilbert, but the Rock had 3 straight average at best seasons after the 2016 Title. Do they legitimately have enough talent/starters returning? They are losing some serious offensive production from Webster and Hauser. It looks like their offensive all purpose yardage last year was dominated by Seniors. 

Guilty.  Big fan of Gilbert and the momentum they have right now.  JV was lights out last year.

They may get the benefit of the Temp’s “coaching bump.”

[Bash Riprock]

30 minutes ago, DT said:

You are welcome to call his tenure whatever you want.

I call it a failure.

It also suggests that highly successful PP coaches struggle outside of the tightly controlled confines of the private school environment.  

OK...I just gave you an example with Mark Haste, who was not a PP coach that struggled at North Central after having an incredibly successful state championship program at Tri-West.  Did you skip by that one??

If you call 3 winning seasons out 5 and a sectional title in one of the more tougher sectionals in this state following a coach with a 1-29 record a failure, then all I can say is that you are a very tough grader.  Hope your boss doesn't have a tough as grading scale....

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, temptation said:

Outside of the box but what if they drop CG/Carmel and pick up Brebeuf and/or Chatard?

Would they then start “winning” some of those recruiting battles if the scoreboard came out in their favor on Friday night?

Guilty.  Big fan of Gilbert and the momentum they have right now.  JV was lights out last year.

They may get the benefit of the Temp’s “coaching bump.”

Add Guerin to that list.  Great start

[Indiana Fan]

4 hours ago, DT said:

I disagree. Continuing to play carmel and center Grove in non-conference regular season play will do nothing but wear down North Central.  They should preserve themselves for conference action by playing winnable non-conference games where they match up well physically. This will help them build up their record and likely enhance turnout.

You are also the same person who thinks teams need to schedule all of these tough out of state opponents for big time matchups.

[temptation]

11 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

You are also the same person who thinks teams need to schedule all of these tough out of state opponents for big time matchups.

I’m not sure this is an apples to apples comparison.  He’s advocating for NC getting a couple of extra winnable games on the schedule by dropping CG/Carmel.

Its hard to sell your parents, student athletes, administration, etc on progress when you face a murderer’s row annually.

Hell, I put NC in my top 10 and fully expect them to be sub .500 this year.  4-5 would be one hell of an accomplishment for the Panthers.

Edited July 20, 2022 by temptation

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’m not sure this is an apples to apples comparison.  He’s advocating for NC getting a couple of extra winnable games on the schedule by dropping CG/Carmel.

Its hard to sell your parents, student athletes, administration, etc on progress when you face a murderer’s row annually.

Hell, I put NC in my top 10 and fully expect them to be sub .500 this year.  4-5 would be one hell of an accomplishment for the Panthers.

NC is like IU.  When you have to play BD/CA/CG/WC, or UM/OSU/PSU/MSU every year, you'll never get ahead, unless you have a fluke year like IU had in 2020.  

NC needs to downsize its schedule and become a winning program again.  There are still plenty of marquee MIC opponents on the schedule without the Trojans and Hounds.  

[temptation]

12 minutes ago, DT said:

NC is like IU.  When you have to play BD/CA/CG/WC, or UM/OSU/PSU/MSU every year, you'll never get ahead, unless you have a fluke year like IU had in 2020.  

NC needs to downsize its schedule and become a winning program again.  There are still plenty of marquee MIC opponents on the schedule without the Trojans and Hounds.  

7-22 against Carmel and 6-18 against CG since the inception of the MIC.

Edited July 20, 2022 by temptation

[Indiana Fan]

50 minutes ago, temptation said:

I’m not sure this is an apples to apples comparison.  He’s advocating for NC getting a couple of extra winnable games on the schedule by dropping CG/Carmel.

Its hard to sell your parents, student athletes, administration, etc on progress when you face a murderer’s row annually.

Hell, I put NC in my top 10 and fully expect them to be sub .500 this year.  4-5 would be one hell of an accomplishment for the Panthers.

I agree with this. Every team needs them. It’s high school. Even the best football programs are not at their best each year. A program needing to get things going definitely needs to find games that they can win.

Just now, Indiana Fan said:

I agree with this. Every team needs them. It’s high school. Even the best football programs are not at their best each year. A program needing to get things going definitely needs to find games that they can win.

Also to note, North Central is the 4th biggest school in the state.

[Warren Central Warrior]

29 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

I agree with this. Every team needs them. It’s high school. Even the best football programs are not at their best each year. A program needing to get things going definitely needs to find games that they can win.

Also to note, North Central is the 4th biggest school in the state.

Fourth largest behind Warren Central 

[Grover]

8 hours ago, DT said:

I disagree. Continuing to play carmel and center Grove in non-conference regular season play will do nothing but wear down North Central.  They should preserve themselves for conference action by playing winnable non-conference games where they match up well physically. This will help them build up their record and likely enhance turnout.

Some sales pitch.  "Come play for us.  We know we suck so we scheduled some cupcakes."

[crimsonace1]

35 minutes ago, Grover said:

Some sales pitch.  "Come play for us.  We know we suck so we scheduled some cupcakes."

My scheduling belief is ... 

*-If you're in a weak conference, schedule one heavyweight and one team slightly at/above your level. 

*-If you're in a conference where you're in the middle of the pack, schedule one team you can beat and one that's at/above your level. 

*-If you're in a strong conference (like the MIC), schedule one tough game but try to get a game that's winnable. Guys need to have some degree of confidence and they get beaten down by losing. 

3 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

Also to note, North Central is the 4th biggest school in the state.

The three that are bigger have been on their schedule for the last quarter-century. At least two of those three remain in their conference. 

[crimsonace1]

4 hours ago, temptation said:

Outside of the box but what if they drop CG/Carmel and pick up Brebeuf and/or Chatard?

Would they then start “winning” some of those recruiting battles if the scoreboard came out in their favor on Friday night?

I doubt it. They may flip a few, but most people who are going to Brebeuf, Cathedral & Chatard are doing so as much for academic/social reasons as for sports. And even if you're transferring for sports, the path to a trophy is much more likely at those schools as NC, even if the Panthers won a H2H matchup. 

When North Central had Derrick Mayes and Eric Allen (and Allen grew up at Pike but then transferred), they were stacked and couldn't get out of the sectional because Ben Davis was just loaded. They haven't really had *that* kind of talent since. 

[Boilernation]

2 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

I doubt it. They may flip a few, but most people who are going to Brebeuf, Cathedral & Chatard are doing so as much for academic/social reasons as for sports. And even if you're transferring for sports, the path to a trophy is much more likely at those schools as NC, even if the Panthers won a H2H matchup. 

When North Central had Derrick Mayes and Eric Allen (and Allen grew up at Pike but then transferred), they were stacked and couldn't get out of the sectional because Ben Davis was just loaded. They haven't really had *that* kind of talent since. 

Agreed. There are certain old money neighborhoods and upper middle class neighborhoods in Washington Township that are not going to NC. The kids have either been going to Chatard feeder schools since grade school and/or are going to Chatard, Cathedral, or Brebeuf for social/academic reasons. 

[Bears62]

6 hours ago, Piratefan101 said:

Crown point I’m thinking may come out north (1&2) regionals. Even though I’m pulling Elkhart. 

Does Crown Point return a lot or what? I would be pretty surprised to see them beat whoever comes out of sectional 2, if CP were to even win their sectional (I don’t think they will).

[Indiana Fan]

2 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

My scheduling belief is ... 

*-If you're in a weak conference, schedule one heavyweight and one team slightly at/above your level. 

*-If you're in a conference where you're in the middle of the pack, schedule one team you can beat and one that's at/above your level. 

*-If you're in a strong conference (like the MIC), schedule one tough game but try to get a game that's winnable. Guys need to have some degree of confidence and they get beaten down by losing. 

The three that are bigger have been on their schedule for the last quarter-century. At least two of those three remain in their conference. 

What does Carmel and CG do now then? Almost impossible for them to find games