6A Season Outlook--Discuss

[crimsonace1]

3 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

What does Carmel and CG do now then? Almost impossible for them to find games

Play each other, Cathedral, whatever MIC schools still want to play them and then fill their schedule by going out of state. 

[BTF]

5 minutes ago, Indiana Fan said:

What does Carmel and CG do now then? Almost impossible for them to find games

Ink deals with Fort Wayne schools.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

Play each other, Cathedral, whatever MIC schools still want to play them and then fill their schedule by going out of state. 

This will work long term for Carmel but not for CG.  Trojans will find a new conference home soon.  The HCC is still the odds on favorite

[temptation]

14 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

I doubt it. They may flip a few, but most people who are going to Brebeuf, Cathedral & Chatard are doing so as much for academic/social reasons as for sports. And even if you're transferring for sports, the path to a trophy is much more likely at those schools as NC, even if the Panthers won a H2H matchup. 

When North Central had Derrick Mayes and Eric Allen (and Allen grew up at Pike but then transferred), they were stacked and couldn't get out of the sectional because Ben Davis was just loaded. They haven't really had *that* kind of talent since. 

Lemme play devil’s advocate here for a moment and open up another topic of conversation…

Why has NC boys basketball been a fixture for the better part of three decades?  What’s holding the football program back?

Aren’t your football and basketball players often “the same pool” of kids?

If working in harmony, can’t you be great/elite at both?

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by temptation

[temptation]

26 minutes ago, temptation said:

Lemme play devil’s advocate here for a moment and open up another topic of conversation…

Why has NC boys basketball been a fixture for the better part of three decades?  What’s holding the football program back?

Aren’t your football and basketball players often “the same pool” of kids?

If working in harmony, can’t you be great/elite at both?

 

 

Every other MIC school can claim some sort of late postseason success in boys basketball and football over the last two decades with the exception of NC.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by temptation

[Boilernation]

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Every other MIC school can claim some sort of late postseason success in boys basketball and football over the last two decades with the exception of NC.

 

No idea of true. But the smoke had always been that Mitchell wasn't a fan of his basketball players entertaining the idea of playing multiple sports. 

[temptation]

Just now, Boilernation said:

No idea of true. But the smoke had always been that Mitchell wasn't a fan of his basketball players entertaining the idea of playing multiple sports. 

But shouldn’t there be room in a school of 3700+ for both to succeed?

 

[Boilernation]

8 minutes ago, temptation said:

But shouldn’t there be room in a school of 3700+ for both to succeed?

 

100%. Look at Warren. David Bell is the low hanging fruit, but I think they've had some good football talent also play basketball.

[Boilernation]

12 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

100%. Look at Warren. David Bell is the low hanging fruit, but I think they've had some good football talent also play basketball.

Temp, I think I may have misinterpreted your question. Regardless of guys playing multiple sports, there should definitely be enough room for both sports to succeed. Ideally, they should feed off of each other and challenge each other. And most certainly it would be a boast to either sport if elite athletes (such as David Bell) are allowed to play both sports. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Boilernation

[Southside]

29 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

100%. Look at Warren. David Bell is the low hanging fruit, but I think they've had some good football talent also play basketball.

Cathedral has a football/basketball player that had the most receiving yards in the state championship game last fall, and also lead his team in points in the basketball state championship game this spring.  I think he is committed to Purdue to play football.

[Bash Riprock]

22 hours ago, DT said:

NC is like IU.  When you have to play BD/CA/CG/WC, or UM/OSU/PSU/MSU every year, you'll never get ahead, unless you have a fluke year like IU had in 2020.  

 

OK....work with me.  If NC is like an IU, how is the coach a failure if he has a winning record 3 of his 5 seasons playing a monster schedule?  Wouldn't most IU fans live with that??

[Bash Riprock]

22 hours ago, temptation said:

7-22 against Carmel and 6-18 against CG since the inception of the MIC.

Didn't O'Shea win 2 of those 6 games against CG?

[temptation]

Just now, Bash Riprock said:

Didn't O'Shea win 2 of those 6 games against CG?

Yep.

[crimsonace1]

2 hours ago, Boilernation said:

No idea of true. But the smoke had always been that Mitchell wasn't a fan of his basketball players entertaining the idea of playing multiple sports. 

Not sure if that's the case - schools of 3000+ kids tend to specialize just because if you don't, the kid who plays year-round might take your spot - but Darius Latham & Daniel Jones were both multi-year starters in both sports. They may have been the exception rather than the rule. 

David Bell (WC), Dawand Jones (BD) & a handful of others have been standouts in both sports in 6A. 

[temptation]

44 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Not sure if that's the case - schools of 3000+ kids tend to specialize just because if you don't, the kid who plays year-round might take your spot - but Darius Latham & Daniel Jones were both multi-year starters in both sports. They may have been the exception rather than the rule. 

David Bell (WC), Dawand Jones (BD) & a handful of others have been standouts in both sports in 6A. 

That’s nonsense/coach speak used to poison kids.  If you are good enough the coach isn’t going to give your spot away…but I’ve heard it plenty.

[ragdoll]

NC-do not recall any major success in postseason except the team Bloomington South beat in 93. That was a very good team. Also, recall NC had some highly ranked teams early 80's with such stars as Gary Thurman, Ray Wallace and Lars Tate, but seemed that Carmel was their kryptonite and then got thrashed in 83 by Washington (in what the media acted like was a huge upset.) Know they had misfortune of playing Warren in 84 regional. 

[temptation]

16 minutes ago, ragdoll said:

NC-do not recall any major success in postseason except the team Bloomington South beat in 93. That was a very good team. Also, recall NC had some highly ranked teams early 80's with such stars as Gary Thurman, Ray Wallace and Lars Tate, but seemed that Carmel was their kryptonite and then got thrashed in 83 by Washington (in what the media acted like was a huge upset.) Know they had misfortune of playing Warren in 84 regional. 

Awesome stuff.  Thanks for the history lesson.  Learned something new today.

[crimsonace1]

2 hours ago, temptation said:

That’s nonsense/coach speak used to poison kids.  If you are good enough the coach isn’t going to give your spot away…but I’ve heard it plenty.

I agree but parents and kids are going to believe what they're going to believe. My days as a girls basketball coach were spent having "conversations" with parents whose 9-year-olds were playing an indoor travel softball game at 2 a.m. the night before in February because "that's when the games are." When I ask why they subject themselves to that and isn't that a bit of overkill, the response is "she has to or she'll get left behind."

I don't think a lot of coaches say that, but the parents think it. Parents - especially the ones who micromanage their kids' careers - are *terrified* of getting "left behind" and their kids "losing their spot." (the micromanaging-type parents are also the least likely to send their kids to their districted school unless it has a powerhouse, state championship-level program in their preferred sport). 

2 hours ago, ragdoll said:

NC-do not recall any major success in postseason except the team Bloomington South beat in 93. That was a very good team. Also, recall NC had some highly ranked teams early 80's with such stars as Gary Thurman, Ray Wallace and Lars Tate, but seemed that Carmel was their kryptonite and then got thrashed in 83 by Washington (in what the media acted like was a huge upset.) Know they had misfortune of playing Warren in 84 regional. 

They had Derrick Mayes and Eric Allen as WR/CBs in 1990-91 but could never get past Ben Davis. 

[Bash Riprock]

2 hours ago, ragdoll said:

NC-do not recall any major success in postseason except the team Bloomington South beat in 93. That was a very good team. Also, recall NC had some highly ranked teams early 80's with such stars as Gary Thurman, Ray Wallace and Lars Tate, but seemed that Carmel was their kryptonite and then got thrashed in 83 by Washington (in what the media acted like was a huge upset.) Know they had misfortune of playing Warren in 84 regional. 

Derrick Mayes played for NC in the early late 80's/early 90's.  Had a standout career at Notre Dame. Was an All-American and team captain.  2nd round draft pick and played 5 years in the NFL.

6 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

They had Derrick Mayes and Eric Allen as WR/CBs in 1990-91 but could never get past Ben Davis. 

Sorry, posted a few secs after you...I didn't realize Eric Allen was a NC guy.

[Grover]

6 hours ago, crimsonace1 said:

Not sure if that's the case - schools of 3000+ kids tend to specialize just because if you don't, the kid who plays year-round might take your spot - but Darius Latham & Daniel Jones were both multi-year starters in both sports. They may have been the exception rather than the rule. 

David Bell (WC), Dawand Jones (BD) & a handful of others have been standouts in both sports in 6A. 

I would have loved to see what D'vauntes Smith-Rivera could do on a football field.

[Footballking16]

15 minutes ago, Grover said:

I would have loved to see what D'vauntes Smith-Rivera could do on a football field.

I’ve seen it lol.

He and my step-brother were on Westlane’s team together in junior high. He might have been full grown as a 7th grader.

Eric Gordon at tailback would have been something. He was 6’3 and built like a house.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Footballking16

[WCGrad92]

I believe that next season Carmel will be in the HCC.  Just my 2 cents.

[FastpacedO]

17 hours ago, Bash Riprock said:

OK....work with me.  If NC is like an IU, how is the coach a failure if he has a winning record 3 of his 5 seasons playing a monster schedule?  Wouldn't most IU fans live with that??

You're barking up the wrong tree if you expect him to "work with you". Over many years he has had much more stringent expectations for High School football coaches. Someone whom hasn't coached or dealt with what coaches do on a daily basis ever. Good writer who strikes the needle in viewership and conversation starters, but Head Coaching or coaching skills at all are seriously lacking. 

The names can be thrown out there O'Shea, Streiff, Dilley, Mallory, Haste, etc. etc. What is largely over looked is the focal point to the equation. He loves to use former P/P coaches to Public or whatever. What is not recognized is the 2 schools associated with the coaches I have named is the 2 schools. Lawrence North and North Central both have their struggles both have high success in Basketball not so much in football. Comparing basketball success and football success is comparing apples to oranges. You only have to have 5 players on the floor in basketball in football you have to have 11 (for a lot of the bigger schools to compete not many 2 way players so actually around 19-22 players). All of the coaches named had some success at one point at those 2 schools for what they are even if it didn't meet DT's criteria. NC and LN haven't exactly been top notch places to coach at when it comes to football, but the coaches named (regardless if their background came from coaching at P/P or Public) have done the best they could with the hands they were dealt. More importantly they have likely had a large impact on the young men they coached at LN and NC during their times there.

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

You're barking up the wrong tree if you expect him to "work with you". Over many years he has had much more stringent expectations for High School football coaches. Someone whom hasn't coached or dealt with what coaches do on a daily basis ever. Good writer who strikes the needle in viewership and conversation starters, but Head Coaching or coaching skills at all are seriously lacking. 

The names can be thrown out there O'Shea, Streiff, Dilley, Mallory, Haste, etc. etc. What is largely over looked is the focal point to the equation. He loves to use former P/P coaches to Public or whatever. What is not recognized is the 2 schools associated with the coaches I have named is the 2 schools. Lawrence North and North Central both have their struggles both have high success in Basketball not so much in football. Comparing basketball success and football success is comparing apples to oranges. You only have to have 5 players on the floor in basketball in football you have to have 11 (for a lot of the bigger schools to compete not many 2 way players so actually around 19-22 players). All of the coaches named had some success at one point at those 2 schools for what they are even if it didn't meet DT's criteria. NC and LN haven't exactly been top notch places to coach at when it comes to football, but the coaches named (regardless if their background came from coaching at P/P or Public) have done the best they could with the hands they were dealt. More importantly they have likely had a large impact on the young men they coached at LN and NC during their times there.

 

 

I am not a coach and never have been. My point all along is that these specific highly successful Private School coaches chose these unsuccessful public school programs thinking they could turn them around and make them successful. None of them achieved that objective.

[temptation]

1 hour ago, DT said:

I am not a coach and never have been. My point all along is that these specific highly successful Private School coaches chose these unsuccessful public school programs thinking they could turn them around and make them successful. None of them achieved that objective.

NC:  8-45 in the 5 years prior to O’Shea

NC:  25-27 under O’Shea

I say again, let’s revisit this talk in 4 months.

I’ll place the over under on NC regular season wins at 3.5.

If they get 4, they are still on the right track…

If they somehow get 5 or more, they exit this discussion.