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High School Football Replay Coming - Yuck!

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2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Red ones always intimidating!!!   

I remember you saying that you would not be too happy to see a coach on the sideline stick an ipad in front of you to show you the play?   Is that because as of right now its not a rule for instant replay?   I remember your tone being one of non support of such tools for high school game,  I could be misguided in that thought however. 

Once it’s legal, i’m happy to use it. 

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CG has had replay for a few years now on is webcast, most times  you can see  that the  right called was made. but their has a few where it could have help.  I would not mind it in very special case a in turnovers and or scoring plays. 

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19 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

I remember you saying that you would not be too happy to see a coach on the sideline stick an ipad in front of you to show you the play?   Is that because as of right now its not a rule for instant replay?   I remember your tone being one of non support of such tools for high school game,  I could be misguided in that thought however. 

We had a high profile ejection in week 9 some years back, requiring a player to sit out the first round of the tournament which was a huge game for the team involved. The HC involved was very quick to offer up an iPad on the sidelines, claiming he had all the answers. Oddly enough he still hasn't released the game video to us via Hudl that we asked for prior to the game. 

I understand many teams are using various video programs on the sidelines today. And there are certainly instances this could help us. The issue I have is the actual implementation. Yes many teams have this technology available to them, but most do not.

For the record, I am not an advocate of IR. I think any stoppage of play gives an advantage to someone. TO's are a given and both teams have them, that's fine. But seriously late in a game where a team has used all their TO's and you're essentially give them another one. As @bobref has stated, I think officials as a whole want one thing, they want the call right. But at what price? Time, money, advantage/disadvantage?

I have no evidence to support my opinion, it's just my gut feeling. I believe that NFL officials are hands down the best officials in sports. But even with the NFL, as IR has become more pervasive, I think there has been a decline in the level of officiating in the NFL. Perhaps decline is not the right word, as they are still really good. 

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2 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I have no evidence to support my opinion, it's just my gut feeling. I believe that NFL officials are hands down the best officials in sports. But even with the NFL, as IR has become more pervasive, I think there has been a decline in the level of officiating in the NFL. Perhaps decline is not the right word, as they are still really good. 

While I wouldn’t call it a “decline,” replay has definitely changed the way the game is officiated. There is much more of a “play on” philosophy, since they know replay can go back and fix it later. Did the ball come out first, or was the knee down. Officials who are backed up by replay are much more likely to rule it a fumble, and let play continue, since they feel replay can correct it if they’re wrong. But if they rule the play dead, there’s nothing that can be done to fix that.

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I’m with @Impartial_Observer on this one. It’s an implementation issue. 

Both teams might even have Hudl on field capabilities with a sideline and end zone camera. Who is running those cameras? A HS student manager? A middle school coach? The left tackle’s dad? 

Visiting team has an issue with a play. Does the ref go to the home video system because it it the ‘official’ system? Does the ref have to run across the field to see both teams’ views? 

I would love to hear those conversations. “Coach, your camera doesn’t show it, but the LT’s dad on the other sideline has a good angle and the player stepped out of bounds.” 

I’m sure that would go over well! 

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40 minutes ago, bobref said:

While I wouldn’t call it a “decline,” replay has definitely changed the way the game is officiated. There is much more of a “play on” philosophy, since they know replay can go back and fix it later. Did the ball come out first, or was the knee down. Officials who are backed up by replay are much more likely to rule it a fumble, and let play continue, since they feel replay can correct it if they’re wrong. But if they rule the play dead, there’s nothing that can be done to fix that.

You're such a wordsmith, I guess it was the Catholic education. I would agree. I knew at the time decline wasn't the word I was looking for. Definitely a play on philosophy and I get that. NFL refs are still the best in the business as far as I'm concerned, but IR has changed the way it's officiated. I've tried to be forthcoming, wearing either a coaching hat or a fan hat, I don't like IR and never will. Make a decision and lets play. 

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19 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

You're such a wordsmith, I guess it was the Catholic education.

Oh come on Impartial. Bob Ref is the worst... a retired official AND an attorney.  No one can win against that combination? :07_v::08_v:

 

Thank y’all for the fun discussion!  Put me in the camp advocating for no instant replay in HS football.

Edited by nmsu aggie

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6 hours ago, nmsu aggie said:

Oh come on Impartial. Bob Ref is the worst... a retired official AND an attorney.  No one can win against that combination? .

When my older daughter was about 10, she looked at me and said “Dad, you’re a football referee and a lawyer. NOBODY likes you!”  Out of the mouths of babes ...

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On 4/16/2018 at 9:03 AM, Farmer Fran said:

1a state championship this year Eastern green had 12 players on the field during a goal line situation. Pioneer coaches yelling at the refs with the sideline judge ignoring the warnings saying there was no way. Pioneer scored but could have potentially been a big deal. 

Don't forget that Pioneer should have 3 titles if replay had been used in the 2014 state championship.

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A big concern for the transition to a 40 second play clock was technological issues schools will have...

Are we really considering this? Or is it just off-season fodder?  I can understand implementing at LOS, but that would contradict the rules of the entire rest of the season. 

I guess I'm on team NO

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1 hour ago, Von2Rov said:

A big concern for the transition to a 40 second play clock was technological issues schools will have...

Are we really considering this? Or is it just off-season fodder?  I can understand implementing at LOS, but that would contradict the rules of the entire rest of the season. 

Does every team in Indiana have a camera? Is the camera solid-state (meaning that the video is stored on a chip)?

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1 hour ago, DanteEstonia said:

Does every team in Indiana have a camera? Is the camera solid-state (meaning that the video is stored on a chip)?

Not everyone has the same system, but I can say that I believe that all but 1 of the DAC teams have real time sideline replay systems in place now.  They have different ways of storing and distributing the video, but all of the realtime systems are obviously solid state.  Some are newer than others.  Some are run by a couple players who aren't dressed for the game and others are run by volunteers or members of the coaching staff.  My guess is that most of the larger schools have the systems in place and more are getting them every season.  Honestly, I only really know the capabilities of 1 system, but it's pretty impressive.  As I said before, the replays are available within a couple seconds after the filming stops for a particular play.  The video can be slowed down and zoomed.  No, there isn't 10 camera angles like the NFL or college games.  Here's the problem I see, there are many different systems out there and there would really be no way for an official to know how to use every one.  If there were to be an occasion to use replay they would have to rely on whoever is operating the system, or one of the coaches who has an iPad or similar device to show the replay to them.  If the team has 2 angles of the play they may choose to only show one angle that shows (or doesn't show) what the official needs to see.  So there are hurdles of availability of the technology and honestly the integrity of the system.

I would be interested to see the system tested in some sort of a pilot program.  For example, if the DAC (or any other conference) wanted to try it for a season the system could be used for a single season only for conference games.  Both schools would agree to meet with the officials prior to the game to disclose how many cameras they have available for replay and identify them to the officials.  This way the officials know how many views they should get to see for any replay.  Each team would designate their "replay representative" who would show the replays to the officials.  The replay representatives would be only allowed to show the replays to the officials, but never under any circumstances advocate for any call.  Any interference by the replay representative would result in an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.  Replay would only be allowed for turnovers and scoring plays.  Each team is allowed a single challenge in the game.  That's it.

It's far from a perfect system.  Sometimes the systems lock up, or a camera goes down for a few plays.  You my just lose a camera for the one play you need it.  How does that go over with an official who really wants to see the endzone angle you should have, but you don't because the freshman you had running the camera forgot to follow the play on a sweep? Maybe try it out for scrimmages first so officials and teams could just test out the idea first.  I'm not sure we're ready for it yet, but the technology is there for a number of teams to make this work.

In short, as of right now I'd be a no, but I would love to have a chance to try it out for a game or two just to see what would happen.

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15 hours ago, Andy G said:

Don't forget that Pioneer should have 3 titles if replay had been used in the 2014 state championship.

No use crying over it now though...

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8 hours ago, Farmer Fran said:

No use crying over it now though...

True. It won't change anything. I just don't want to see it happen to another team.

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On 5/1/2018 at 10:51 PM, Impartial_Observer said:

The cost is revealed. It is my understanding this is the same company that provides instant replay for the SEC. 

http://highschoolsports.al.com/news/article/5638358853113332158/heres-the-cost-for-alabama-hs-football-instant-replay/#incart_river_index

Pocket change to some schools... Others will struggle to get that paid

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32 minutes ago, Von2Rov said:

Pocket change to some schools... Others will struggle to get that paid

Agreed.  For a game.  Played by children.

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12 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Agreed.  For a game.  Played by children.

I'll agree to disagree with your continued argument for 14-18 year olds being called children.  They, in my opinion, are young men learning to become great men. 

It is a lot of pennies for a game played by young men  :17_v:

Have a good one Muda!

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I think before we would make the jump to Instant Reply we should focus on trying to educate and train our officials better. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what the officials do but we all know there are good crews and there are bad crews. Last year I was at a game where the QB fumbled the ball, the DE was able to scoop and score but the officials blew the play dead saying the QB was down, clearly not, and never fumbled the football, clearly did. Changed the game completely. 

I've seen other nightmare scenarios like when a QB was ejected for an illegal block that happened on a bubble pass to the opposite end of the field. When the flag was thrown he was standing next to the coach on the sidelines and the ref just through out a number on who made the block. Now that being said I've seen some good crews as well but if the IHSAA is giving any serious thought into Instant Replay (which I doubt they are) I'd rather see that money go to better educating and training officials. 

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1 hour ago, Gamecock Part Deux said:

I think before we would make the jump to Instant Reply we should focus on trying to educate and train our officials better. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what the officials do but we all know there are good crews and there are bad crews. Last year I was at a game where the QB fumbled the ball, the DE was able to scoop and score but the officials blew the play dead saying the QB was down, clearly not, and never fumbled the football, clearly did. Changed the game completely. 

I've seen other nightmare scenarios like when a QB was ejected for an illegal block that happened on a bubble pass to the opposite end of the field. When the flag was thrown he was standing next to the coach on the sidelines and the ref just through out a number on who made the block. Now that being said I've seen some good crews as well but if the IHSAA is giving any serious thought into Instant Replay (which I doubt they are) I'd rather see that money go to better educating and training officials. 

No argument with anything you’ve said. Let me just add, for perspective, that the challenges in providing “training” to Indiana’s thousand or so football officials are formidable. They include (in no particular order and without any attempt at an exhaustive list):

  1. High school officials come in all shapes and sizes ... and abilities. They also come with varying degrees of commitment. I was a crew chief for 25 yrs., and during the season for that time I probably spent at least 5 hrs. of prep - assembling the pregame, watching film, working with rules, cases, and mechanics publications, providing the crew with feedback, attending meetings, etc. - for every hour spent on the field. What percentage of those 1,000 officials do you think are doing something like that? Probably not very many. A lot of those cannot devote that time to it because of family or work. There are also many who are just not that highly motivated. The NFL has about 130 officials. The difference between the best NFL official and the worst is about this much (you can’t see, but I’m holding my thumb and forefinger about an inch apart). The difference between the best and worst Indiana HS officials is, by comparison, about a mile.
  2. The shortage of officials means that we are putting just about everyone with a pulse on the field. In the past, you worked a couple of years under the watchful eyes of veteran officials at lower level games before you even sniffed the field. We are forced to put people on the field now before they are close to ready.
  3. Most of the training has to happen on the local association level. But the oversight and coordination of the local officials organizations (of which there are about twice as many as there should be) by the IHSAA is all but non-existent. There’s a ready explanation for that. See #4 below.
  4. The IHSAA executive staff is not organized in a way that is conducive to expanding training, oversight, or education of officials. There is an Asst. Commissioner in charge of officials, but that is purely for administrative purposes, like licensure and renewal. But there is no officiating “czar” who is responsible for such critical officiating-related tasks as recruitment, retention, training, evaluation, and advancement. Many states have such a position on their executive staffs. But Indiana does not. This may seem like a no-brainer, but remember, such a person would have to be paid and that would come right out of the schools’ cut of revenue.

Want better officiating? Taking care of these 4 issues would be a great start.

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1 hour ago, bobref said:

No argument with anything you’ve said. Let me just add, for perspective, that the challenges in providing “training” to Indiana’s thousand or so football officials are formidable. They include (in no particular order and without any attempt at an exhaustive list):

  1. High school officials come in all shapes and sizes ... and abilities. They also come with varying degrees of commitment. I was a crew chief for 25 yrs., and during the season for that time I probably spent at least 5 hrs. of prep - assembling the pregame, watching film, working with rules, cases, and mechanics publications, providing the crew with feedback, attending meetings, etc. - for every hour spent on the field. What percentage of those 1,000 officials do you think are doing something like that? Probably not very many. A lot of those cannot devote that time to it because of family or work. There are also many who are just not that highly motivated. The NFL has about 130 officials. The difference between the best NFL official and the worst is about this much (you can’t see, but I’m holding my thumb and forefinger about an inch apart). The difference between the best and worst Indiana HS officials is, by comparison, about a mile.
  2. The shortage of officials means that we are putting just about everyone with a pulse on the field. In the past, you worked a couple of years under the watchful eyes of veteran officials at lower level games before you even sniffed the field. We are forced to put people on the field now before they are close to ready.
  3. Most of the training has to happen on the local association level. But the oversight and coordination of the local officials organizations (of which there are about twice as many as there should be) by the IHSAA is all but non-existent. There’s a ready explanation for that. See #4 below.
  4. The IHSAA executive staff is not organized in a way that is conducive to expanding training, oversight, or education of officials. There is an Asst. Commissioner in charge of officials, but that is purely for administrative purposes, like licensure and renewal. But there is no officiating “czar” who is responsible for such critical officiating-related tasks as recruitment, retention, training, evaluation, and advancement. Many states have such a position on their executive staffs. But Indiana does not. This may seem like a no-brainer, but remember, such a person would have to be paid and that would come right out of the schools’ cut of revenue.

Want better officiating? Taking care of these 4 issues would be a great start.

So trying to generate some discussion . . . 

1. What would you suggest the IHSAA do to create more motivated officials? I understand it's a thankless job and I'm not really sure how much they're compensated but I'm sure it's not much, and I don't know how much that could really change that?

2. I've read about the officiating shortage before, probably comes mostly from what I asked for your first statement. Again anything you would suggest to that would get more young guys (or gals) to become officials?

3. Why does the IHSAA not have any real oversight with their officials? I would think this would be one of the main justifications for having a state athletic association and would be done for all sports?

4. I would be all for the creation of this position, you throwing your hat in the ring? #bobrefofficiatingczar2020

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3 minutes ago, Gamecock Part Deux said:

So trying to generate some discussion . . . 

1. What would you suggest the IHSAA do to create more motivated officials? I understand it's a thankless job and I'm not really sure how much they're compensated but I'm sure it's not much, and I don't know how much that could really change that?

2. I've read about the officiating shortage before, probably comes mostly from what I asked for your first statement. Again anything you would suggest to that would get more young guys (or gals) to become officials?

3. Why does the IHSAA not have any real oversight with their officials? I would think this would be one of the main justifications for having a state athletic association and would be done for all sports?

4. I would be all for the creation of this position, you throwing your hat in the ring? #4

I can’t afford the pay cut.

Seriously, though, if I were czar, the first thing I would do (for football only, since I do not pretend to know much about other sports) is get with the Indiana Football Officials Assoc. and work with them to design a half dozen or so “canned” meeting presentations for local associations, film heavy, with handouts and a script. Required for every official who wants to work ... and not just those who want to work in the playoffs. Next, I’d work with local associations (at the same time attempting to consolidate them to reduce numbers by at least half) to develop some standardized training and evaluation programs. I’d also be pitching a fit about the ineffective - and in many cases, counterproductive - way we decide which officials get to advance in the playoffs.

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On 4/16/2018 at 10:49 AM, Coach_G said:

My biggest complaint is that is will exist for only late tourney games.  If it exists it should be applicable not just to the whole tourney but the entire regular season.  That reason alone is enough that it shouldn't have been passed.  

What's the purpose of having replay during the regular season if those games have no bearing on the tournament? Everyone gets in and there's no seeding. It'd be a waste of time.

I'm against replay but, if it were to be used, I think the state championship games are the only time for it. Schools wouldn't be responsible for paying for it and there wouldn't be a concern about the camera positioning. Just use the Fox Sports cameras. That's the only game that coaches can see replays anyway. They're shown on the big screens pretty much after every play. The coach could look up, see the replay and then challenge the call. It's more convenient than challenging a call in which you can't see the replay. You're sort of just guessing because you're basing everything on your point of view.

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On 5/13/2018 at 12:12 AM, Frozen Tundra said:

What's the purpose of having replay during the regular season if those games have no bearing on the tournament? Everyone gets in and there's no seeding. It'd be a waste of time.

I'm against replay but, if it were to be used, I think the state championship games are the only time for it. Schools wouldn't be responsible for paying for it and there wouldn't be a concern about the camera positioning. Just use the Fox Sports cameras. That's the only game that coaches can see replays anyway. They're shown on the big screens pretty much after every play. The coach could look up, see the replay and then challenge the call. It's more convenient than challenging a call in which you can't see the replay. You're sort of just guessing because you're basing everything on your point of view.

I agree.  This is the only time I would support it as well.

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