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Impact of the Success Factor on Indiana HS Football


Impact of the Success Factor on Indiana HS Football  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. Has the Success Factor benefitted INHSFB as a whole?

    • Yes
      33
    • No
      23
    • No change
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The Success Factor has probably affected football and volleyball more than any other sports, but it's largely done what it was supposed to do - ensure schools like Cathedral, Chatard, Roncalli, Andrean, Evansville Memorial, Sheridan, Pioneer, et al, can't continually reload and win 4-5 state titles in a row in a given class. 

It giveth and it taketh away. I'm very tied to the New Palestine program. In 2013, the regional was New Palestine vs. Chatard, and was a great game that NP eventually won (and was a real breakthrough win for the program that had never quite been able to get over the regional hump in the previous two decades) ... as it was the first year of the SF and Cathedral, which had dominated the class, had been bumped to 5A. Cathedral went on to win back-to-back 5A titles while being a 4A-sized school, while NP and Columbus East had some generational talent and duked it out in 4A (and then both Success Factored up to 5A in 2015 and met again in back-to-back sectional tourneys, with the winner going to Lucas Oil). NP is back in 4A this year for the first time since walking off the turf at Lucas Oil in 2014. 4A would've been absolutely loaded those years had New Pal, Cathedral and Columbus East all been in the same class.

But I've also known of programs that have had generational talent that win in a lower class, get bumped up and the team struggles (but likely would've struggled in the lower class). 

The constant tinkering early - lowering the threshhold to stay up from four points to three and then two - was frustrating because *twice* the tinkering kept NP up in a higher class, but NP obviously did pretty well in 5A. The IHSAA seems to like the system the way it is and it's likely going to remain in the current form. 

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Crimsonrace nailed it. It did what it was intended to do, and that’s prevent a select few programs from running off 4-5 state championships in a row.

The SF has benefitted a handful of programs in the process but by in large part, hasn’t moved the needle in terms of improving competitive balance. 
 

So to answer the question, I voted no, as it hasn’t benefitted Indiana High School as a whole. 95+% of IHSAA member teams remain largely unaffected by the SF.

Edited by Footballking16
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41 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Crimsonrace nailed it. It did what it was intended to do, and that’s prevent a select few programs from running off 4-5 state championships in a row.

The SF has benefitted a handful of programs in the process but by in large part, hasn’t moved the needle in terms of improving competitive balance. 
 

So to answer the question, I voted no, as it hasn’t benefitted Indiana High School as a whole. 95+% of IHSAA member teams remain largely unaffected by the SF.

I'd be interested in seeing a survey of schools with the questions as:

  • Have you been DIRECTLY impacted by SF?
  • How?

I would suspect that outside of the ones that moved up, the numbers would be relatively small to that first bulletpoint question.  In a sectional, a team that enters 0-8 each season isn't directly impacted by the usual sectional winner being SF'd as they would have likely been knocked off by the #6 of 8 team in that sectional.  Regional and semi-state foes might say "yes" too, but as you start climbing the ranks, there are other teams that are as competitive in the mix.  As an example, while you can make an argument that LCC going up to 2A opened the door for Pioneer, it would miss that fact that LCC and Pioneer are pretty close to tied in their series of meetings over the years and that Pioneer's last three meetings with LCC, from earliest to latest, 2016-2018, have been 28-27, 48-20, and 70-7 wins for Pioneer.  All you really have to do is look at posts in several other threads that many teams are far-removed from the discussion of winning seasons much less the SF discussion.  While it's perhaps a part of the "competitive balance" argument, it's a small part compared to many other things including open-enrollment/transfer, district/school resources, general demographics, etc.

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Well...in our "neck of the woods" (Southern Indiana) - let's take a quick quiz.

Since the implementation of the SF, which schools have been forced up due to tournament success?

A. Gibson Southern

B. Mater Dei

C. Heritage Hills

D. Southridge

While I realize their time is probably quickly coming (Mater Dei and Gibson Southern) - we've personally felt the sting/pitfalls of such a program. Not only after a State Championship, but also acquiring enough points to STAY up (I realize enrollment was going to put us there anyway in the newest classification cycle.) 

Bottom line, we had kids who weren't even in the high school program paying for the successes of kids who are now in the junior/senior year of college...and that just seems weird. 

But, as they say, "it is what it is"

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1 hour ago, jets said:

Well...in our "neck of the woods" (Southern Indiana) - let's take a quick quiz.

Since the implementation of the SF, which schools have been forced up due to tournament success?

A. Gibson Southern

B. Mater Dei

C. Heritage Hills

D. Southridge

While I realize their time is probably quickly coming (Mater Dei and Gibson Southern) - we've personally felt the sting/pitfalls of such a program. Not only after a State Championship, but also acquiring enough points to STAY up (I realize enrollment was going to put us there anyway in the newest classification cycle.) 

Bottom line, we had kids who weren't even in the high school program paying for the successes of kids who are now in the junior/senior year of college...and that just seems weird. 

But, as they say, "it is what it is"

Yep. Memorial playing 4A football  and staying 4A because of kids who graduated 3 and 4 years ago.  

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9 hours ago, Screagle said:

Yep. Memorial playing 4A football  and staying 4A because of kids who graduated 3 and 4 years ago.  

Yes because last year Memorial definitely did not make it to semi state as a 4A and they definitely haven’t been one of the top teams in 4A.

 

you have my support when it comes to the possibility that EM could be playing in 5A despite barely having a 3A enrollment….but Memorial belongs in 4A and that’s not even remotely a hot take or something unearned 
 

 

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4 hours ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Yes because last year Memorial definitely did not make it to semi state as a 4A and they definitely haven’t been one of the top teams in 4A.

 

you have my support when it comes to the possibility that EM could be playing in 5A despite barely having a 3A enrollment….but Memorial belongs in 4A and that’s not even remotely a hot take or something unearned 
 

 

Not sure your point but Memorial is 4A because of kids who are junior and seniors in college.
 

Why should Memorial be in 4A other than SF?  5A? Lol

 

Edited by Screagle
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13 hours ago, Screagle said:

Yep. Memorial playing 4A football  and staying 4A because of kids who graduated 3 and 4 years ago.  

 

4 hours ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Yes because last year Memorial definitely did not make it to semi state as a 4A and they definitely haven’t been one of the top teams in 4A.

 

you have my support when it comes to the possibility that EM could be playing in 5A despite barely having a 3A enrollment….but Memorial belongs in 4A and that’s not even remotely a hot take or something unearned 
 

 

Well - you probably won't like the upcoming statement - but Memorial doesn't receive the same sympathy as a Southridge when it comes to the SF. The Success Factor was put in place for the Chatard's & Memorial's of the world (private/parochial). We aren't exactly playing with the same deck of cards....

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20 minutes ago, jets said:

 

Well - you probably won't like the upcoming statement - but Memorial doesn't receive the same sympathy as a Southridge when it comes to the SF. The Success Factor was put in place for the Chatard's & Memorial's of the world (private/parochial). We aren't exactly playing with the same deck of cards....

I think sometimes people should come look at the deck of cards Memorial is playing with. Not many times have the Tigers lined up and been the biggest, strongest or fastest team.  The groups that went to state were a couple of special classes back to back to back. Before that not many feared the Tigers.  Only 1 time in Hurleys career have the Tigers won the SIAC outright. Most years middle of the pack. If the SIAC is very comparable to the PAC in football why would anyone care if Tigers are 3A?
Nobody wants sympathy I can promise that. 

Edited by Screagle
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1 hour ago, jets said:

 

Well - you probably won't like the upcoming statement - but Memorial doesn't receive the same sympathy as a Southridge when it comes to the SF. The Success Factor was put in place for the Chatard's & Memorial's of the world (private/parochial). We aren't exactly playing with the same deck of cards....

Agreed.  I think with Southridge it’s more that it was a jump from 2A/3A while people more/less see 4A/3A on pretty much the same level.  Some years the best 3A team is better than all of 4A.  They are pretty close when you are comparing top 10 teams of each.

 

55 minutes ago, Screagle said:

I think sometimes people should come look at the deck of cards Memorial is playing with. Not many times have the Tigers lined up and been the biggest, strongest or fastest team.  The groups that went to state were a couple of special classes back to back to back. Before that not many feared the Tigers.  Only 1 time in Hurleys career have the Tigers won the SIAC outright. Most years middle of the pack. If the SIAC is very comparable to the PAC in football why would anyone care if Tigers are 3A?
Nobody wants sympathy I can promise that. 

I wouldn’t say I care if memorial goes back to 3A or not.  But they have definitely earned their spot and have done more in 4A than Chatard has…which says a lot about the tradition and culture of memorial.

 

i think if anything I want memorial to stay 4A so that when GS joins because of enrollment we get to those matchups and forum chaos again.  Memorial Vs GS threads were good fun debates and the build up to either heartbreak or pride on fridays were a thrill.  

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15 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

think if anything I want memorial to stay 4A so that when GS joins because of enrollment we get to those matchups and forum chaos again.  Memorial Vs GS threads were good fun debates and the build up to either heartbreak or pride on fridays were a thrill.

Packed Crowds, 40 degree weather, usually a championship game on the line, Sandy’s Pizza, and great atmosphere all together. I wish it will come back again whether Memorial is in 3A again or GS heads up to 4A.

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22 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Agreed.  I think with Southridge it’s more that it was a jump from 2A/3A while people more/less see 4A/3A on pretty much the same level.  Some years the best 3A team is better than all of 4A.  They are pretty close when you are comparing top 10 teams of each.

 

I wouldn’t say I care if memorial goes back to 3A or not.  But they have definitely earned their spot and have done more in 4A than Chatard has…which says a lot about the tradition and culture of memorial.

 

i think if anything I want memorial to stay 4A so that when GS joins because of enrollment we get to those matchups and forum chaos again.  Memorial Vs GS threads were good fun debates and the build up to either heartbreak or pride on fridays were a thrill.  

Great atmosphere 

Edited by Screagle
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GS will be in 4A soon enough due to enrollment.  Memorial is where they belong due to the "effective enrollment" ie essentially the number of quality success driven student athletes in the halls.  Enrollment alone doesn't work for privates and it's easy to see (unless you're the one collecting the trophies).  GS has an effective enrollment very similar to Mater Dei.  I hope I coined the phase "effective enrollment".....it's sexy.

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13 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

GS will be in 4A soon enough due to enrollment.  Memorial is where they belong due to the "effective enrollment" ie essentially the number of quality success driven student athletes in the halls.  Enrollment alone doesn't work for privates and it's easy to see (unless you're the one collecting the trophies).  GS has an effective enrollment very similar to Mater Dei.  I hope I coined the phase "effective enrollment".....it's sexy.

I mean if we are counting Catholics attending the school GS might have MD beat 😂  

 

Always get a chuckle hearing the phrase “more Catholic kids than Mater Dei since 1974” 

 

but otherwise agree.  Probably a good 15% of public schools are kids who for some reason or another are there just because they have to be 

Edited by DumfriesYMCA
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17 hours ago, Titan32 said:

GS has an effective enrollment very similar to Mater Dei.  I hope I coined the phase "effective enrollment".....it's sexy.

LOL. It's not sexy, it's a snake oil to dab the wounds of losses in 2016-2018 when GS had rattled off 3 straight wins against relatively bad Memorial teams and thought it had entered an era where annual runs deep into the playoffs would be the norm. What happened to those very good GS teams in the 3 year stretch of losses to Memorial is the same thing that happened to them in 2019 & 2020 losses to HH & SR - GS just got beat by a better team on that particular night. If a p/p's effective enrollment should be 15-20% higher (which incorrectly assumes a p/p has zero dead-weight students) then GS and Memorial are already "effectively" the same size (550 v. 700). I think you like to say GS is similar to MD simply because GS hasn't played them. How do the rosters compare? GS has had more kids on its roster than Memorial in recent years. Heck, MD has had more kids on its roster than Memorial for quite a long time. Shouldn't Memorial have more kids on its roster in your sexy scenario?

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1 hour ago, tango said:

LOL. It's not sexy, it's a snake oil to dab the wounds of losses in 2016-2018 when GS had rattled off 3 straight wins against relatively bad Memorial teams and thought it had entered an era where annual runs deep into the playoffs would be the norm. What happened to those very good GS teams in the 3 year stretch of losses to Memorial is the same thing that happened to them in 2019 & 2020 losses to HH & SR - GS just got beat by a better team on that particular night. If a p/p's effective enrollment should be 15-20% higher (which incorrectly assumes a p/p has zero dead-weight students) then GS and Memorial are already "effectively" the same size (550 v. 700). I think you like to say GS is similar to MD simply because GS hasn't played them. How do the rosters compare? GS has had more kids on its roster than Memorial in recent years. Heck, MD has had more kids on its roster than Memorial for quite a long time. Shouldn't Memorial have more kids on its roster in your sexy scenario?

I think you really missed the mark on this one.  Effective enrollment is my theory regarding all P/Ps in the state that have decent football intangibles, it really has nothing to do with GS wins or losses.  I think it is undeniable and I think every single one of you guys know it, but can't admit it, P/Ps simply have significantly less dead weight just by nature of their business and therefore it should be accounted for in classification.  There should not be a competitive advantage just for making the "sacrifice" of sending your child to a P/P with good coaching in any sport (all things being equal with publics with good coaching).  Memorial runs very similar in effective enrollment to Castle in both boys and girls athletics, just look at the all conference race.  In terms of GS losses, out of the 5 games you mention I think 3 of them were 50/50 games that we came out on the short end of the stick, I personally have no wounds from that other than wishing we had gotten 1 or 2 of them to give the Naysayers less ammunition lol.  I think the dead weight for publics is more like 25-35% (and GS is going to be lower than most), we are closer to MD than we are Memorial.  It's not about roster size....rosters are full of dead weight at publics.  Sure we don't play MD and if we had played them the last 11 years we probably would have lost a few....that is really irrelevant to the point.

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It's hard for a school playing up two classes to match the depth of schools in that higher class.  That's the major factor and the SF has kept traditional good football schools from piling up trophies.  I think that was the major reason for the implementation of the SF.

It is what it is and if it makes some folks happy, then it's a good thing I guess.

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