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3A sectional alignment

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2 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

It's pretty obvious a completely different strategy was employed.  You...like most of us, assumed there would be some historical president.  Nope.

North and South travel routes where the norm before (ie HWY 41 corridor).  Now it seems I 64 matters.

All but two travel possibilities are all within 1.5 hours. 

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2 minutes ago, btownqbcoach said:

All but two travel possibilities are all within 1.5 hours. 

vs 7 to 40 minutes.

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Just now, Titan32 said:

vs 7 to 40 minutes.

You can't just look at it like that though. You have to look at the entire state, as a whole. 

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Just now, btownqbcoach said:

You can't just look at it like that though. You have to look at the entire state, as a whole. 

I understand your point...and again...I don't care enough to debate.  But....they deviated from a more solid logic in terms of travel distance based on historical president in 3A south which is admittedly a tough problem to solve.  My guess is some fancy computer analysis would not have landed on what we got.

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1 minute ago, Titan32 said:

I understand your point...and again...I don't care enough to debate.  But....they deviated from a more solid logic in terms of travel distance based on historical president in 3A south which is admittedly a tough problem to solve.  My guess is some fancy computer analysis would not have landed on what we got.

I just kind of looked at the results and thought... meh, ok I can see that. Sectional 30 and 31 still don't make sense to me, but that's ok. 

Good luck to the Titans this season. AND FOR CHRIST SAKE NO MORE RAIN GAMES THIS SEASON!!!!!!

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Just now, btownqbcoach said:

I just kind of looked at the results and thought... meh, ok I can see that. Sectional 30 and 31 still don't make sense to me, but that's ok. 

Good luck to the Titans this season. AND FOR CHRIST SAKE NO MORE RAIN GAMES THIS SEASON!!!!!!

Goodluck Braves!  I appreciate the similar approach you guys take in preparing your youth that we employ.  Top notch.  AMEN on the rain.

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23 minutes ago, btownqbcoach said:

Looks fair to me. 

I am not a fair this or fair that kind of person. My favorite quote is, "There is nothing more unequal, than the equal treatment of unequals."  That being said, the 3A alignment just does not employ any type of logic that I can come up with.  The IHSAA called this a Sectional tournament, not you or I, implying that geography would be the logical way to divide teams.  Therefore, split the state into half and divide each half into quadrants.  This works for every class.  With 64 as the magic number, group eight schools at a time geographically, so that regardless of who moves up or who moves down, this is an outcome with far less anticipation.  We should not be waiting and holding our breaths to see who will go where because there should only be a handful of schools that are borderline based on their location to the location of others.  There ARE politics involved in the decision of where to send everyone this time around, and we should question the logic.  I am all for bucking tradition for better means,  and looking for new solutions to old problems, but this process should only be about looking at lines on a map and not who benefits from this scenario and that scenario.  There should NEVER be a 150+ mile, 3 hour bus ride for a sectional game.

3A Comparison.jpg

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43 minutes ago, eschnur66 said:

I am not a fair this or fair that kind of person. My favorite quote is, "There is nothing more unequal, than the equal treatment of unequals."  That being said, the 3A alignment just does not employ any type of logic that I can come up with.  The IHSAA called this a Sectional tournament, not you or I, implying that geography would be the logical way to divide teams.  Therefore, split the state into half and divide each half into quadrants.  This works for every class.  With 64 as the magic number, group eight schools at a time geographically, so that regardless of who moves up or who moves down, this is an outcome with far less anticipation.  We should not be waiting and holding our breaths to see who will go where because there should only be a handful of schools that are borderline based on their location to the location of others.  There ARE politics involved in the decision of where to send everyone this time around, and we should question the logic.  I am all for bucking tradition for better means,  and looking for new solutions to old problems, but this process should only be about looking at lines on a map and not who benefits from this scenario and that scenario.  There should NEVER be a 150+ mile, 3 hour bus ride for a sectional game.

3A Comparison.jpg

good map. 

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Distance from Mount Vernon  to Salem via google maps 2 h 23 min (148.8 mi) via I-64 E Yeah they did a great job .

Should never have a more then 2 hour drive for sectionals .

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If Gibson southern would play Salem in sectional 1 h 52 min (115.1 mi) via I-64 E

If Gibson Southern would play Larenceburg in regional 3 h 21 min (220.5 mi) via I-64 E and I-71 N

If Gibson Southern would play Princeton in Semi State 13 min (8.0 mi) via US-41 N

all are via Google Maps. 

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Sectional 28 could have been even more stacked if you swap Tri-West and Ritter for Crawfordsville and North Montgomery.  One could argue that it would have made more sense.

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14 hours ago, DaveMosbey said:

Distance from Mount Vernon  to Salem via google maps 2 h 23 min (148.8 mi) via I-64 E Yeah they did a great job .

Should never have a more then 2 hour drive for sectionals .

And if they played in sectional 31 they would have a 2hr 15min drive to Franklin Co, if they played in sectional 30 they'd have a 2hr 5min drive to Sullivan. Brownstown and Salem are centrally located, but neither of us are on an interstate. Why are the extra 23mins in your scenario that big of a deal? That's kind of silly. But, yeah... they did do a pretty good job, at least in the South, not familiar enough with the North. 

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A few years ago (2016-2017?), I was asked to be on a sectional realignment committee.  (I declined.)  Even then the IHSAA said we want you guys/girls to set these up however you deem fair.  At an Principal/AD Area Meeting, Bobby Cox asked us what was more important travel distance or travel time.  In my area the answer was time. But then what they wanted to do was put me (from southwestern Indiana) on a committee to realign a Northern Sectional.  The logic was ADs in the south know very little about traditional rivalries and historical sectional opponents.  Therefore, we were going to shake things up.  Obviously, that did not happen a few years ago but the idea was planted. You can see a lot of changes in a variety of different sports and very little consistency. 

My old school is in a different sectional for boys basketball, boys soccer, girls soccer (boys and girls soccer are not in the same sectionals either), and volleyball. I don't understand the purpose of completely changing every sport.

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18 hours ago, eschnur66 said:

I am not a fair this or fair that kind of person. My favorite quote is, "There is nothing more unequal, than the equal treatment of unequals."  That being said, the 3A alignment just does not employ any type of logic that I can come up with.  The IHSAA called this a Sectional tournament, not you or I, implying that geography would be the logical way to divide teams.  Therefore, split the state into half and divide each half into quadrants.  This works for every class.  With 64 as the magic number, group eight schools at a time geographically, so that regardless of who moves up or who moves down, this is an outcome with far less anticipation.  We should not be waiting and holding our breaths to see who will go where because there should only be a handful of schools that are borderline based on their location to the location of others.  There ARE politics involved in the decision of where to send everyone this time around, and we should question the logic.  I am all for bucking tradition for better means,  and looking for new solutions to old problems, but this process should only be about looking at lines on a map and not who benefits from this scenario and that scenario.  There should NEVER be a 150+ mile, 3 hour bus ride for a sectional game.

3A Comparison.jpg

This map is very interesting.

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2 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

This map is very interesting.

It is.  And, unfortunately if you pull two school in different quadrants and put them together, there will be a ripple effect statewide...

Math, Science, and Geography in this case suck!!!

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22 minutes ago, Gipper said:

It is.  And, unfortunately if you pull two school in different quadrants and put them together, there will be a ripple effect statewide...

Math, Science, and Geography in this case suck!!!

At least this method provides very simple, logical explanations using Math, Science, and Geography for why some teams have to be placed in one place or another.  

 

1 hour ago, Coach_K said:

A few years ago (2016-2017?), I was asked to be on a sectional realignment committee.  (I declined.)  Even then the IHSAA said we want you guys/girls to set these up however you deem fair.  At an Principal/AD Area Meeting, Bobby Cox asked us what was more important travel distance or travel time.  In my area the answer was time. But then what they wanted to do was put me (from southwestern Indiana) on a committee to realign a Northern Sectional.  The logic was ADs in the south know very little about traditional rivalries and historical sectional opponents.  Therefore, we were going to shake things up.  Obviously, that did not happen a few years ago but the idea was planted. You can see a lot of changes in a variety of different sports and very little consistency. 

My old school is in a different sectional for boys basketball, boys soccer, girls soccer (boys and girls soccer are not in the same sectionals either), and volleyball. I don't understand the purpose of completely changing every sport.

Conference affiliation, traditional rivalries, and who is friends with who should not be factors.  There does not need to be a committee that assigns sectionals.  We are waiting to see what the people are going to do about an issue that can be determined without human bias and illogical reasoning.  Place the grid over the state and assign sectionals accordingly.

 

1 hour ago, btownqbcoach said:

And if they played in sectional 31 they would have a 2hr 15min drive to Franklin Co, if they played in sectional 30 they'd have a 2hr 5min drive to Sullivan. Brownstown and Salem are centrally located, but neither of us are on an interstate. Why are the extra 23mins in your scenario that big of a deal? That's kind of silly. But, yeah... they did do a pretty good job, at least in the South, not familiar enough with the North. 

Simple geography makes this a moot point.  If you look at the map that I posted earlier of the projected verses actual sectionals, you can see the flaws.  Math is the other thing on the side of my approach.  In the actual sectional assignments released for the 2019 and 2020 seasons, the average mileage and travel times (for the two schools in each group that are the farthest apart) are 102 miles and 1 hour 51 minutes respectively.  This is compared to the projected sectional alignment where the distance and time between the two schools with the greatest distance between them being, 96 miles and 1 hour 45 minutes respectively.

The number of schools vs. the number of classes creates a problem for the IHSAA that I do not envy.  However, this discussion would not be at all necessary if they simply geographically places schools in their sectional.  my biggest issue looking at these maps is the size of the boxes on the Actual side as apposed the the projected side.  Six miles and six minutes worth of travel time seems silly to argue, however in the 2019 case there are far more schools with potentially longer than necessary trips in the sectional than 3A has seen in the past.

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27 minutes ago, eschnur66 said:

At least this method provides very simple, logical explanations using Math, Science, and Geography for why some teams have to be placed in one place or another.  

 

Conference affiliation, traditional rivalries, and who is friends with who should not be factors.  There does not need to be a committee that assigns sectionals.  We are waiting to see what the people are going to do about an issue that can be determined without human bias and illogical reasoning.  Place the grid over the state and assign sectionals accordingly.

 

Simple geography makes this a moot point.  If you look at the map that I posted earlier of the projected verses actual sectionals, you can see the flaws.  Math is the other thing on the side of my approach.  In the actual sectional assignments released for the 2019 and 2020 seasons, the average mileage and travel times (for the two schools in each group that are the farthest apart) are 102 miles and 1 hour 51 minutes respectively.  This is compared to the projected sectional alignment where the distance and time between the two schools with the greatest distance between them being, 96 miles and 1 hour 45 minutes respectively.

The number of schools vs. the number of classes creates a problem for the IHSAA that I do not envy.  However, this discussion would not be at all necessary if they simply geographically places schools in their sectional.  my biggest issue looking at these maps is the size of the boxes on the Actual side as apposed the the projected side.  Six miles and six minutes worth of travel time seems silly to argue, however in the 2019 case there are far more schools with potentially longer than necessary trips in the sectional than 3A has seen in the past.

There's flaws regardless, they did a solid job. 

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20 hours ago, eschnur66 said:

I am not a fair this or fair that kind of person. My favorite quote is, "There is nothing more unequal, than the equal treatment of unequals."  That being said, the 3A alignment just does not employ any type of logic that I can come up with.  The IHSAA called this a Sectional tournament, not you or I, implying that geography would be the logical way to divide teams.  Therefore, split the state into half and divide each half into quadrants.  This works for every class.  With 64 as the magic number, group eight schools at a time geographically, so that regardless of who moves up or who moves down, this is an outcome with far less anticipation.  We should not be waiting and holding our breaths to see who will go where because there should only be a handful of schools that are borderline based on their location to the location of others.  There ARE politics involved in the decision of where to send everyone this time around, and we should question the logic.  I am all for bucking tradition for better means,  and looking for new solutions to old problems, but this process should only be about looking at lines on a map and not who benefits from this scenario and that scenario.  There should NEVER be a 150+ mile, 3 hour bus ride for a sectional game.

3A Comparison.jpg

 

25 minutes ago, eschnur66 said:

At least this method provides very simple, logical explanations using Math, Science, and Geography for why some teams have to be placed in one place or another.  

 

Conference affiliation, traditional rivalries, and who is friends with who should not be factors.  There does not need to be a committee that assigns sectionals.  We are waiting to see what the people are going to do about an issue that can be determined without human bias and illogical reasoning.  Place the grid over the state and assign sectionals accordingly.

 

Simple geography makes this a moot point.  If you look at the map that I posted earlier of the projected verses actual sectionals, you can see the flaws.  Math is the other thing on the side of my approach.  In the actual sectional assignments released for the 2019 and 2020 seasons, the average mileage and travel times (for the two schools in each group that are the farthest apart) are 102 miles and 1 hour 51 minutes respectively.  This is compared to the projected sectional alignment where the distance and time between the two schools with the greatest distance between them being, 96 miles and 1 hour 45 minutes respectively.

The number of schools vs. the number of classes creates a problem for the IHSAA that I do not envy.  However, this discussion would not be at all necessary if they simply geographically places schools in their sectional.  my biggest issue looking at these maps is the size of the boxes on the Actual side as apposed the the projected side.  Six miles and six minutes worth of travel time seems silly to argue, however in the 2019 case there are far more schools with potentially longer than necessary trips in the sectional than 3A has seen in the past.

. Very well stated and thought out. Couldn't agree more. 

 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, eschnur66 said:

At least this method provides very simple, logical explanations using Math, Science, and Geography for why some teams have to be placed in one place or another.  

 

Conference affiliation, traditional rivalries, and who is friends with who should not be factors.  There does not need to be a committee that assigns sectionals.  We are waiting to see what the people are going to do about an issue that can be determined without human bias and illogical reasoning.  Place the grid over the state and assign sectionals accordingly.

 

Simple geography makes this a moot point.  If you look at the map that I posted earlier of the projected verses actual sectionals, you can see the flaws.  Math is the other thing on the side of my approach.  In the actual sectional assignments released for the 2019 and 2020 seasons, the average mileage and travel times (for the two schools in each group that are the farthest apart) are 102 miles and 1 hour 51 minutes respectively.  This is compared to the projected sectional alignment where the distance and time between the two schools with the greatest distance between them being, 96 miles and 1 hour 45 minutes respectively.

The number of schools vs. the number of classes creates a problem for the IHSAA that I do not envy.  However, this discussion would not be at all necessary if they simply geographically places schools in their sectional.  my biggest issue looking at these maps is the size of the boxes on the Actual side as apposed the the projected side.  Six miles and six minutes worth of travel time seems silly to argue, however in the 2019 case there are far more schools with potentially longer than necessary trips in the sectional than 3A has seen in the past.

Yes, they did a good job.  I know it's unfortunate for certain teams, though.

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4 years ago when Guerin, Brebeuf and Chatard were lumped into the same sectional (28) for the first time, I was pretty worked up about it and was convinced that the alignment was gerrymandered. Was so ticked off that I went and did research about fair ways to district sectionals. It turns out that there is a lot more research in drawing boundaries for election voting districts and it's the same issue... how do you break voters (or schools in this case) into into evenly divided geographic areas without letting politics or bias creep into the process.

Not to get too nerdy, but I discovered in voting districts a lot of research supports the a method called "Splitline Districting". The method is described here:

https://rangevoting.org/SplitLR.html

For example, here's a comparison of the best ways to divide voting districts in Indiana (current vs splitline method).

image.png.112620cad8ad6480ad42e6801c317116.png

 

Anywho... back at the time, I spent a couple of hours figuring out the (fair) splitline method to do 3A sectional alignment... and discovered that alignment that IHSAA came up with only had two minor differences from my method. The map that I assumed was wildly UNFAIR was actually pretty fair and splitline would have put Guerin, Brebeuf and Chatard into the same sectional that the IHSAA did. I wrote an article about it at the time and got a lot of hits and comments on that.

 

I will say though... I'm REALLLLLLLYYYYYY confused that Tri-West Hendricks is in a Southern Indiana sectional (29) and Chatard is in a Northern Sectional (28). The most basic division of a fair alignment method is the north/south line. That line should run straight EAST<->WEST through the middle of Indiana and divide 32 northern teams from 32 southern teams.

Here are the GPS coordinates of Chatard HS:
39.8618038 N 86.128051 W

Here are the GPS coordinates of Tri-West Hendricks HS:
39.877131 N 86.5442741 W

So....

Chartard is in a northern sectional (#28) but geographically should be in the south.
Tri-West Hendricks is in a southern sectional (#29) but geographically should be in the north.

This would appear to be a "fail" at the most basic level and makes me question the faith that I developed in the process last time.

 

 

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All of 3A should just be glad they are not in sectional 28. I’d drive 5 hours for tournament game to avoid that thing!’ 

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5 minutes ago, Screagle said:

All of 3A should just be glad they are not in sectional 28. I’d drive 5 hours for tournament game to avoid that thing!’ 

So would I, but I can't.

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Looks like some teams in Sectional 28 will just have to recruit better. 

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1 hour ago, Foobird said:

 

I will say though... I'm REALLLLLLLYYYYYY confused that Tri-West Hendricks is in a Southern Indiana sectional (29) and Chatard is in a Northern Sectional (28). The most basic division of a fair alignment method is the north/south line. That line should run straight EAST<->WEST through the middle of Indiana and divide 32 northern teams from 32 southern teams.

Here are the GPS coordinates of Chatard HS:
39.8618038 N 86.128051 W

Here are the GPS coordinates of Tri-West Hendricks HS:
39.877131 N 86.5442741 W

So....

Chartard is in a northern sectional (#28) but geographically should be in the south.
Tri-West Hendricks is in a southern sectional (#29) but geographically should be in the north.

This would appear to be a "fail" at the most basic level and makes me question the faith that I developed in the process last time.

 

 

Take a look the board that helped put the sectionals together and you will get your answer.   

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