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What to know about the Indiana judges who were shot at a White Castle


Muda69

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https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2019/05/02/clark-county-indiana-judges-shot-at-white-castles-indianapolis-what-know/3649427002/

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Two Clark County judges in Indianapolis for training were shot early Wednesday morning in a White Castle parking lot, sending both men to the hospital. Details from police continue to evolve. Here's the latest:  

Clark County Circuit Judges Andrew Adams, 47, and Brad Jacobs, 46. Both were elected in 2014, beating long-time incumbents. 

Adams and Jacobs started as public defenders and later worked as private criminal defense lawyers. 

Both are married, have three children and live in Charlestown. They are also Marine Corps veterans and graduates of Indiana University Southeast. 

Jacobs is the son of Buzz Jacobs, who served for three consecutive terms as a circuit judge between 1982 to 1996.

Investigators don't believe they were targeted because they're judges.

The judges were shot about 3:20 a.m. during some sort of argument in the parking lot of the White Castle at 55 W. South St. in Indianapolis, Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department said.

Adams and Jacobs were downtown with two others and had visited several restaurant/bars late Tuesday into early Wednesday, police said in a news release. 

 

After unsuccessfully trying to get into a bar adjacent to the White Castle, which had just closed, the group went to the fast food restaurant, police said.

While the judges and a third man stood outside, a vehicle parked and those inside tried to get into the restaurant, but its doors were locked.  

Police said based off witness interviews, words were exchanged between the judges' group and those from the vehicle, then a physical fight broke out followed by the shooting.  

No suspect information has been released. 

....

Hmm.  If I were a resident of Clark County I would want to why two elected officials,  judges of the law nonetheless, were doing "out on the town" at 3am.  Doesn't seem to be behavior conductive to their purpose for being in Indianapolis in the first place,  a purpose very likely being paid for by Clark County taxpayers.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2019/05/02/clark-county-indiana-judges-shot-at-white-castles-indianapolis-what-know/3649427002/

Hmm.  If I were a resident of Clark County I would want to why two elected officials,  judges of the law nonetheless, were doing "out on the town" at 3am.  Doesn't seem to be behavior conductive to their purpose for being in Indianapolis in the first place,  a purpose very likely being paid for by Clark County taxpayers.

 

 

Yeah, because judges aren't human beings. They're not entitled to any free time. And seriously, does "out on the town" include White Castle? Maybe in Frankfort ... :classic_laugh:

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1 minute ago, Bobref said:

 They're not entitled to any free time. And seriously, does "out on the town" include White Castle? Maybe in Frankfort ... :classic_laugh:

Not when they supposedly in Indianapolis for for training purpose,  which one could logically conclude was being paid for by taxpayers.

As for "out on the town" did you even read the article?:

Quote

Adams and Jacobs were downtown with two others and had visited several restaurant/bars late Tuesday into early Wednesday

That sounds like "out on the town' to me.

And for your information Frankfort, Indiana currently doesn't have a White Castle.................

 

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Other than the "holier than thou" types, I'd think most Hoosiers would not be troubled by the mere fact that they were taking advantage of a trip to the "Big City" to have some fun. I'd be more concerned, if I were a Clark County voter, that two guys had made it to their late 40s without appreciating the dire danger they were exposing themselves to by scarfing down sliders after several hours of drinking....

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Not to mention going to a training class in the morning hungover after only probably 3-4 hours of sleep.   Nice behavior for an elected official being trained on probably the taxpayer's dime.

 

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34 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Not when they supposedly in Indianapolis for for training purpose,  which one could logically conclude was being paid for by taxpayers.

As for "out on the town" did you even read the article?:

That sounds like "out on the town' to me.

And for your information Frankfort, Indiana currently doesn't have a White Castle.................

 

I read the article in the Indiana Lawyer. But regardless of where they had been before the incident, I don't understand why you have a problem with this. Now, if they went out to some bars and charged that to the taxpayers, I would have a problem with that. But as long as they were doing what they were supposed to be doing during the day, i.e., judicial continuing education, who cares what they were doing on their own time?

Not everyone who goes "out on the town" drinks so much that they are impaired the next day. I'd be more concerned about the possible gastric consequences of late night White Castles.

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1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

I can't help asking myself would most expect better "wisdom and judgment" from professionals with plenty of legal experience to put themselves in that position?  I get having the ability to have some fun.....but out until 3:20am?  Getting into an altercation.  I think we all know some interesting characters are out that time of night.  

It is their time and business....but I would expect them to make better risk/benefit choices, and take their professional positions into account.

 

Exactly.  Are we not supposed to hold public servants, elected judges nonetheless,  to a higher standard of behavior?

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Exactly.  Are we not supposed to hold public servants, elected judges nonetheless,  to a higher standard of behavior?

Frankly, the judges I know have to listen to so much crap, if I were them I’d be hitting Happy Hour every day.

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Exactly.  Are we not supposed to hold public servants, elected judges nonetheless,  to a higher standard of behavior?

Depends a little on who you mean by "we".  In the case of judges (and lawyers) they are held to a higher standard under rules of professional/judicial conduct that direct judges to avoid personal conduct that appears improper and would could erode confidence in the integrity of the judiciary.  Depending on the facts that ultimately surface about what they were doing that morning, and how the physical altercation that led to the shooting got started, they could face disciplinary actions, with the "we" who holds them to a higher standard being the Indiana Supreme Court's Disciplinary Commission.  

But, honestly, I suspect the Commission would be reluctant to pour salt in the wounds anytime soon for these guys, who obviously paid a heavy price for their night out on the town. So, as long as there is no evidence that they broke the law in connection with this incident, I suspect that the Commission would likely just issue a private reprimand (with a suggestion to perhaps get alcohol use counseling, if they had been drinking.)

 If "we" means  Americans in general,  yes, we should hold elected officials to a high standard of conduct,  but we do not do so for the same  reason most all of us also don't hold ourselves to the standard of conduct that we should.  

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15 hours ago, Wabash82 said:

Depends a little on who you mean by "we".  In the case of judges (and lawyers) they are held to a higher standard under rules of professional/judicial conduct that direct judges to avoid personal conduct that appears improper and would could erode confidence in the integrity of the judiciary.  Depending on the facts that ultimately surface about what they were doing that morning, and how the physical altercation that led to the shooting got started, they could face disciplinary actions, with the "we" who holds them to a higher standard being the Indiana Supreme Court's Disciplinary Commission.  

But, honestly, I suspect the Commission would be reluctant to pour salt in the wounds anytime soon for these guys, who obviously paid a heavy price for their night out on the town. So, as long as there is no evidence that they broke the law in connection with this incident, I suspect that the Commission would likely just issue a private reprimand (with a suggestion to perhaps get alcohol use counseling, if they had been drinking.)

 If "we" means  Americans in general,  yes, we should hold elected officials to a high standard of conduct,  but we do not do so for the same  reason most all of us also don't hold ourselves to the standard of conduct that we should.  

"We" in this particular case also means the citizens of Clark County, who elected them to the position of judge in the first place.  Methinks Mr. Adams and Mr. Jacobs face some explaining to do to those citizens who elected them, regardless of some disciplinary commission's ruling.

 

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I just looked at this entire thread a couple of things come to mind:

1) Let he among us who hasn't wondered into a White Castle at 3:00 in the morning after a night of bar hopping cast the first stone.

2) Muda, I bet you are fun to hang out with at IT conventions.

3) When you make it to the big city if you're looking for a good time, I'd call @Lysander he has intel of all the best dive bars. 

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1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I just looked at this entire thread a couple of things come to mind:

1) Let he among us who hasn't wondered into a White Castle at 3:00 in the morning after a night of bar hopping cast the first stone.

2) Muda, I bet you are fun to hang out with at IT conventions.

3) When you make it to the big city if you're looking for a good time, I'd call @Lysander he has intel of all the best dive bars. 

1.  Never have.

2. I avoid IT conventions like the plague.  Most are boring and a complete waste of time/money.

3. I generally abhor the bar scene.  If I want to drink alcohol I'll do it in the comfort of my own home or the homes of close friends/family.

 

 

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:10 AM, Muda69 said:

1.  Never have.

2. I avoid IT conventions like the plague.  Most are boring and a complete waste of time/money.

3. I generally abhor the bar scene.  If I want to drink alcohol I'll do it in the comfort of my own home or the homes of close friends/family.

 

 

Who'd a thunk it?!  

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2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Sorry that I am not a party animal and am an introvert by nature.  Are you a party animal Wabash?

 

 

I am too introverted to answer questions....

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2 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

I am too introverted to answer questions....

Now we all know this is not true,  per your myriad of well thought out and reasoned responses on this very forum.

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49 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Now we all know this is not true,  per your myriad of well thought out and reasoned responses on this very forum.

Now you've got me blushing.

We introverts just can't stand being the focus of attention,  can we, Muda?

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4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Sorry that I am not a party animal and am an introvert by nature.  Are you a party animal Wabash?

 

 

I have no idea, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet he's just a normal dude. Perhaps you're the anomaly here Muda?

Personally I've been to professional training events, and have managed to not only learn a little, but have a little fun while there. I just don't see the issue.  

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50 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

Now you've got me blushing.

We introverts just can't stand being the focus of attention,  can we, Muda?

I dislike it.

 

14 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Perhaps you're the anomaly here Muda?

Personally I've been to professional training events, and have managed to not only learn a little, but have a little fun while there. I just don't see the issue.  

I never claimed otherwise.

Glad to hear you actually learned something at a professional training event.   

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40 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

Guess I lean more toward Muda on this one IO.  I expect a certain level of wisdom from judges....the same judges that hold some fate of others in their hands.

I think many of us have told our children that nothing good happens after midnight.....that is wisdom.  That goes especially at 3:20am at a strip club and a White Castle parking lot, that involved an altercation.  Wonder if alcohol contributed to the decision-making and "wisdom"?  

No prude here....and no introvert.  Give guys in their mid to late 40's kudos for still tearing up past 3am and willing to "throw down" when boobs and sliders weren't available.  But in my mind, could have easily been avoided.....characters out that time of night are not always the "good guys". Kind of loses any credibility if they lecture people in their courtrooms in the future for public intoxication and fighting.

Just glad they are going to recover and the bad guys have been arrested.

Are you suggesting that you NEVER are out past midnight anymore?  You do not EVER go out for an evening with family or friends where you are stay out until the early morning hours? If so, I think you part of a fairly small minority, at least for people below the age of 75.  

There is no indication that these judges make a habit of partying to all hours of the night. All indications are that it was a special occasion for them:  a chance to go out with some friends with whom they were attending the same out of town conference.  

Your comment also implies certain facts that I have not seen reported. The news reports said they'd gone to some bars prior to the incident, but I don't recall seeing any news reports indicating that either of the judges was believed to be intoxicated.

Maybe I am the prude here, but I typically drink in moderation when I am out on the town ("bar hopping"), here in Indy or anywhere else I may be. Having a good time doesn't equate (to me) to drinking to the level of being intoxicated. Likewise, staying out late with friends doesn't equate (to me) to being out looking for trouble; it usually equates to having an enjoyable time with enjoyable company, such that no one's in hurry to see the night end. 

And as for the "fighting": if some guy physically assaulted me on the street, I would seem reasonable for me to try to defend myself. I don't think it would strike me as completely accurate to accuse me of "fighting" in public in that situation; more like, protecting myself in public from a criminal. 

The only part of this that makes me cringe is that they were apparently trying to get into the Red Garter prior to this incident. I'm not a fan of married men -- really any men, but especially married men -- going to strip clubs (or going without their wives, if they're into that sort of thing 😉). But I don't reasonably expect everyone to follow my position on that, especially since strip bars are legal establishments. 

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48 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

Are you suggesting that you NEVER are out past midnight anymore?  You do not EVER go out for an evening with family or friends where you are stay out until the early morning hours? If so, I think you part of a fairly small minority, at least for people below the age of 75.  

There is no indication that these judges make a habit of partying to all hours of the night. All indications are that it was a special occasion for them:  a chance to go out with some friends with whom they were attending the same out of town conference.  

Your comment also implies certain facts that I have not seen reported. The news reports said they'd gone to some bars prior to the incident, but I don't recall seeing any news reports indicating that either of the judges was believed to be intoxicated.

Maybe I am the prude here, but I typically drink in moderation when I am out on the town ("bar hopping"), here in Indy or anywhere else I may be. Having a good time doesn't equate (to me) to drinking to the level of being intoxicated. Likewise, staying out late with friends doesn't equate (to me) to being out looking for trouble; it usually equates to having an enjoyable time with enjoyable company, such that no one's in hurry to see the night end. 

And as for the "fighting": if some guy physically assaulted me on the street, I would seem reasonable for me to try to defend myself. I don't think it would strike me as completely accurate to accuse me of "fighting" in public in that situation; more like, protecting myself in public from a criminal. 

The only part of this that makes me cringe is that they were apparently trying to get into the Red Garter prior to this incident. I'm not a fan of married men -- really any men, but especially married men -- going to strip clubs (or going without their wives, if they're into that sort of thing 😉). But I don't reasonably expect everyone to follow my position on that, especially since strip bars are legal establishments. 

I have to agree with TD here, I believe this does bring their judgement into question, there are way nicer places.

I'm not going to lie here fellas, strip clubs just don't hold the appeal to me that they did when I was a few years younger. That being said showing up at a strip club with a couple of lesbians and buying one of them a lap dance......well that's a game changer.

 

Edited by Impartial_Observer
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