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Muda69

What to know about the Indiana judges who were shot at a White Castle

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https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2019/05/02/clark-county-indiana-judges-shot-at-white-castles-indianapolis-what-know/3649427002/

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Two Clark County judges in Indianapolis for training were shot early Wednesday morning in a White Castle parking lot, sending both men to the hospital. Details from police continue to evolve. Here's the latest:  

Clark County Circuit Judges Andrew Adams, 47, and Brad Jacobs, 46. Both were elected in 2014, beating long-time incumbents. 

Adams and Jacobs started as public defenders and later worked as private criminal defense lawyers. 

Both are married, have three children and live in Charlestown. They are also Marine Corps veterans and graduates of Indiana University Southeast. 

Jacobs is the son of Buzz Jacobs, who served for three consecutive terms as a circuit judge between 1982 to 1996.

Investigators don't believe they were targeted because they're judges.

The judges were shot about 3:20 a.m. during some sort of argument in the parking lot of the White Castle at 55 W. South St. in Indianapolis, Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department said.

Adams and Jacobs were downtown with two others and had visited several restaurant/bars late Tuesday into early Wednesday, police said in a news release. 

 

After unsuccessfully trying to get into a bar adjacent to the White Castle, which had just closed, the group went to the fast food restaurant, police said.

While the judges and a third man stood outside, a vehicle parked and those inside tried to get into the restaurant, but its doors were locked.  

Police said based off witness interviews, words were exchanged between the judges' group and those from the vehicle, then a physical fight broke out followed by the shooting.  

No suspect information has been released. 

....

Hmm.  If I were a resident of Clark County I would want to why two elected officials,  judges of the law nonetheless, were doing "out on the town" at 3am.  Doesn't seem to be behavior conductive to their purpose for being in Indianapolis in the first place,  a purpose very likely being paid for by Clark County taxpayers.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2019/05/02/clark-county-indiana-judges-shot-at-white-castles-indianapolis-what-know/3649427002/

Hmm.  If I were a resident of Clark County I would want to why two elected officials,  judges of the law nonetheless, were doing "out on the town" at 3am.  Doesn't seem to be behavior conductive to their purpose for being in Indianapolis in the first place,  a purpose very likely being paid for by Clark County taxpayers.

 

 

Yeah, because judges aren't human beings. They're not entitled to any free time. And seriously, does "out on the town" include White Castle? Maybe in Frankfort ... :classic_laugh:

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1 minute ago, Bobref said:

 They're not entitled to any free time. And seriously, does "out on the town" include White Castle? Maybe in Frankfort ... :classic_laugh:

Not when they supposedly in Indianapolis for for training purpose,  which one could logically conclude was being paid for by taxpayers.

As for "out on the town" did you even read the article?:

Quote

Adams and Jacobs were downtown with two others and had visited several restaurant/bars late Tuesday into early Wednesday

That sounds like "out on the town' to me.

And for your information Frankfort, Indiana currently doesn't have a White Castle.................

 

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Other than the "holier than thou" types, I'd think most Hoosiers would not be troubled by the mere fact that they were taking advantage of a trip to the "Big City" to have some fun. I'd be more concerned, if I were a Clark County voter, that two guys had made it to their late 40s without appreciating the dire danger they were exposing themselves to by scarfing down sliders after several hours of drinking....

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Not to mention going to a training class in the morning hungover after only probably 3-4 hours of sleep.   Nice behavior for an elected official being trained on probably the taxpayer's dime.

 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Not when they supposedly in Indianapolis for for training purpose,  which one could logically conclude was being paid for by taxpayers.

As for "out on the town" did you even read the article?:

That sounds like "out on the town' to me.

And for your information Frankfort, Indiana currently doesn't have a White Castle.................

 

I read the article in the Indiana Lawyer. But regardless of where they had been before the incident, I don't understand why you have a problem with this. Now, if they went out to some bars and charged that to the taxpayers, I would have a problem with that. But as long as they were doing what they were supposed to be doing during the day, i.e., judicial continuing education, who cares what they were doing on their own time?

Not everyone who goes "out on the town" drinks so much that they are impaired the next day. I'd be more concerned about the possible gastric consequences of late night White Castles.

Edited by Bobref

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I guess I am riding the fence on this one.  Certainly respect Bob and WB's perspectives.

I can't help asking myself would most expect better "wisdom and judgment" from professionals with plenty of legal experience to put themselves in that position?  I get having the ability to have some fun.....but out until 3:20am?  Getting into an altercation.  I think we all know some interesting characters are out that time of night.  

It is their time and business....but I would expect them to make better risk/benefit choices, and take their professional positions into account.

Just glad they are going to pull out to be able to tell this story to others.....

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1 hour ago, TrojanDad said:

I can't help asking myself would most expect better "wisdom and judgment" from professionals with plenty of legal experience to put themselves in that position?  I get having the ability to have some fun.....but out until 3:20am?  Getting into an altercation.  I think we all know some interesting characters are out that time of night.  

It is their time and business....but I would expect them to make better risk/benefit choices, and take their professional positions into account.

 

Exactly.  Are we not supposed to hold public servants, elected judges nonetheless,  to a higher standard of behavior?

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Any one feeding at the public’s expense is naturally weaker than free market UberMensch and would obviously be more corruptible.  And White Castle has corrupted many.

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44 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Exactly.  Are we not supposed to hold public servants, elected judges nonetheless,  to a higher standard of behavior?

Sadly enough, not anymore. 

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Exactly.  Are we not supposed to hold public servants, elected judges nonetheless,  to a higher standard of behavior?

Frankly, the judges I know have to listen to so much crap, if I were them I’d be hitting Happy Hour every day.

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Exactly.  Are we not supposed to hold public servants, elected judges nonetheless,  to a higher standard of behavior?

Depends a little on who you mean by "we".  In the case of judges (and lawyers) they are held to a higher standard under rules of professional/judicial conduct that direct judges to avoid personal conduct that appears improper and would could erode confidence in the integrity of the judiciary.  Depending on the facts that ultimately surface about what they were doing that morning, and how the physical altercation that led to the shooting got started, they could face disciplinary actions, with the "we" who holds them to a higher standard being the Indiana Supreme Court's Disciplinary Commission.  

But, honestly, I suspect the Commission would be reluctant to pour salt in the wounds anytime soon for these guys, who obviously paid a heavy price for their night out on the town. So, as long as there is no evidence that they broke the law in connection with this incident, I suspect that the Commission would likely just issue a private reprimand (with a suggestion to perhaps get alcohol use counseling, if they had been drinking.)

 If "we" means  Americans in general,  yes, we should hold elected officials to a high standard of conduct,  but we do not do so for the same  reason most all of us also don't hold ourselves to the standard of conduct that we should.  

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10 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Frankly, the judges I know have to listen to so much crap

And they have to wear a dress to do it.

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Thought I heard it was near the Red Garter.

I could have given them a scouting report.

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15 hours ago, Wabash82 said:

Depends a little on who you mean by "we".  In the case of judges (and lawyers) they are held to a higher standard under rules of professional/judicial conduct that direct judges to avoid personal conduct that appears improper and would could erode confidence in the integrity of the judiciary.  Depending on the facts that ultimately surface about what they were doing that morning, and how the physical altercation that led to the shooting got started, they could face disciplinary actions, with the "we" who holds them to a higher standard being the Indiana Supreme Court's Disciplinary Commission.  

But, honestly, I suspect the Commission would be reluctant to pour salt in the wounds anytime soon for these guys, who obviously paid a heavy price for their night out on the town. So, as long as there is no evidence that they broke the law in connection with this incident, I suspect that the Commission would likely just issue a private reprimand (with a suggestion to perhaps get alcohol use counseling, if they had been drinking.)

 If "we" means  Americans in general,  yes, we should hold elected officials to a high standard of conduct,  but we do not do so for the same  reason most all of us also don't hold ourselves to the standard of conduct that we should.  

"We" in this particular case also means the citizens of Clark County, who elected them to the position of judge in the first place.  Methinks Mr. Adams and Mr. Jacobs face some explaining to do to those citizens who elected them, regardless of some disciplinary commission's ruling.

 

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I just looked at this entire thread a couple of things come to mind:

1) Let he among us who hasn't wondered into a White Castle at 3:00 in the morning after a night of bar hopping cast the first stone.

2) Muda, I bet you are fun to hang out with at IT conventions.

3) When you make it to the big city if you're looking for a good time, I'd call @Lysander he has intel of all the best dive bars. 

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1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I just looked at this entire thread a couple of things come to mind:

1) Let he among us who hasn't wondered into a White Castle at 3:00 in the morning after a night of bar hopping cast the first stone.

2) Muda, I bet you are fun to hang out with at IT conventions.

3) When you make it to the big city if you're looking for a good time, I'd call @Lysander he has intel of all the best dive bars. 

1.  Never have.

2. I avoid IT conventions like the plague.  Most are boring and a complete waste of time/money.

3. I generally abhor the bar scene.  If I want to drink alcohol I'll do it in the comfort of my own home or the homes of close friends/family.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Impartial_Observer said:

I just looked at this entire thread a couple of things come to mind:

1) Let he among us who hasn't wondered into a White Castle at 3:00 in the morning after a night of bar hopping cast the first stone.

2) Muda, I bet you are fun to hang out with at IT conventions.

3) When you make it to the big city if you're looking for a good time, I'd call @Lysander he has intel of all the best dive bars. 

More power for men in the mid to late 40's that can drink until 3:30am and apparently want to throw down in a parking lot I guess.  It seems we read about that a ton in the news....lots of shootings in Indy that time of morning unfortunately.

What I typically don't see are judges involved in such incidents.  Could be good news for people appearing in court in their jurisdictions.....guessing based on their own examples of behavior, that would have a tremendous amount of tolerance, patience and empathy.......

Edited by TrojanDad
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On 5/9/2019 at 11:10 AM, Muda69 said:

1.  Never have.

2. I avoid IT conventions like the plague.  Most are boring and a complete waste of time/money.

3. I generally abhor the bar scene.  If I want to drink alcohol I'll do it in the comfort of my own home or the homes of close friends/family.

 

 

Who'd a thunk it?!  

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20 hours ago, Wabash82 said:

Who'd a thunk it?!  

Sorry that I am not a party animal and am an introvert by nature.  Are you a party animal Wabash?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Sorry that I am not a party animal and am an introvert by nature.  Are you a party animal Wabash?

 

 

I am too introverted to answer questions....

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2 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

I am too introverted to answer questions....

Now we all know this is not true,  per your myriad of well thought out and reasoned responses on this very forum.

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49 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Now we all know this is not true,  per your myriad of well thought out and reasoned responses on this very forum.

Now you've got me blushing.

We introverts just can't stand being the focus of attention,  can we, Muda?

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4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Sorry that I am not a party animal and am an introvert by nature.  Are you a party animal Wabash?

 

 

I have no idea, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet he's just a normal dude. Perhaps you're the anomaly here Muda?

Personally I've been to professional training events, and have managed to not only learn a little, but have a little fun while there. I just don't see the issue.  

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50 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

Now you've got me blushing.

We introverts just can't stand being the focus of attention,  can we, Muda?

I dislike it.

 

14 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Perhaps you're the anomaly here Muda?

Personally I've been to professional training events, and have managed to not only learn a little, but have a little fun while there. I just don't see the issue.  

I never claimed otherwise.

Glad to hear you actually learned something at a professional training event.   

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