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swordfish

School Shootings

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SF feels that in any shooting (mass or not) situation, the blame should be placed squarely on the shooter and that shooter should not be glorified in any way - no matter who.  Somebody pulled a trigger - they are the problem, not the gun, not the teacher, not the bully - the shooter.  Secondary is how the weapon was obtained, and if there was criminality involved - punishment should follow accordingly.

IMHO - anyone who pulls the trigger is to blame, and it is my opinion there are likely mental issues as well.

Personally I don't want to hear anything about a shooter - only the heroes that stopped the carnage, or killed the shooter, and the stories of the wounded.  Up until this shooting, in the past, the storylines surrounding the shootings have leaned towards the shooter's backgrounds, shooter's personal beliefs and political views being reasons and excuses for them pulling the trigger while overtly ignoring any mental issues.  In the latest shooting in Colorado, this story is appearing to place the blame on the school itself and the culture. 

 https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/09/us/colorado-shooting-stem-school-concerned-parent-invs/index.html

Since I have ran into some flak for posting a story - I will trust everybody to read the entire story themselves with out my highlighting and have a conversation about it.

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Gonzo - There is meme thread. 

But I'll bite, so you think banning guns is the answer?

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2 minutes ago, swordfish said:

you think banning guns is the answer?

Nope.

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Well then why post a meme like that on a serious topic?  Deflection?  

https://nypost.com/2019/05/10/colorado-school-shooting-suspects-reportedly-took-guns-from-parents-cabinet/

What new gun law could have prevented these kids from getting those guns?  They broke into a supposedly secure gun safe, stole the guns, torched a vehicle and (obviously - thankfully) didn't know how to use the guns effectively.  They broke the law.  Simple.

Whose fault do you think this is? 

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2 minutes ago, swordfish said:

Well then why post a meme like that on a serious topic?

Because it's relevant to the topic.

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Posted (edited)

OIC - So it's religion's fault?  Or should we just not talk about it......Really not seeing how that meme was germane.....

Edited by swordfish
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I have numerous students (both now and in the past, both public and private schools) who believe school is the only safe place in their life.  With each incident of a school shooting the anxiety levels of students, teachers and parents goes up.  To do nothing is wrong. I would rather we take a shot at fixing the problem through legislation, rather than sit here and do nothing.  Unfortunately, legislation would mean public education would receive more funding, and well, we are in Indiana. We simply cannot give more money to the schools even if that means the possibility of safer schools.

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What new legislation would you propose?  These kids broke numerous laws just obtaining and possessing  the guns, let alone taking them into a gun-free zone and then committed murder.  Anything legislative must be aimed at addressing mental issues.

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22 minutes ago, swordfish said:

What new legislation would you propose?  These kids broke numerous laws just obtaining and possessing  the guns, let alone taking them into a gun-free zone and then committed murder.  Anything legislative must be aimed at addressing mental issues.

I agree 100%...and arming teachers is NOT a solution either.

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1 hour ago, swordfish said:

What new legislation would you propose?  These kids broke numerous laws just obtaining and possessing  the guns, let alone taking them into a gun-free zone and then committed murder.  Anything legislative must be aimed at addressing mental issues.

Bingo....nobody wants to take on the more difficult issue....and that is a change or even decay in culture.  When did human life mean so little?  No one back in my day ever considered taking a gun into school, let alone pointing it at a fellow classmate.  And the parking lot had many vehicles with guns inside of them.  

We evolve in many areas over time.....this isn't one of them.  But the easy way out (at least many think) is put more words on paper............

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1 hour ago, swordfish said:

What new legislation would you propose?  These kids broke numerous laws just obtaining and possessing  the guns, let alone taking them into a gun-free zone and then committed murder.  Anything legislative must be aimed at addressing mental issues.

I don't know. I don't have answers.  The problem is we know school shootings happen and instead of making meaningful change, politicians politicize the event.  I don't care if you are R or D, they all do it.

I would argue you fund education more and put more time and money into personnel.  More counselors to serve the ever-changing student body.  More teachers so they could get to know students better.  More professional development aimed at understanding mental/emotional issues, recognizing signs.  Referring to politicians --->Place an importance on the child and their actions not solely how they do on a test. <--- 

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1 hour ago, Irishman said:

I agree 100%...and arming teachers is NOT a solution either.

Are you against trained LTCH teachers being armed in school? 

School personnel can already have firearms on school property with authorization from the school board. 

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8 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Are you against trained LTCH teachers being armed in school? 

School personnel can already have firearms on school property with authorization from the school board. 

I am not sure how I feel about school personnel carrying because of the following questions:

Does a teacher carrying make the school safer?

Where do the majority of school shooting take place? (Classroom, common areas, hallways, etc.)  When do these occurrences happen? (Is there a pattern?)

Does the teacher with a gun pursue the school shooter? What happens if he/she breaks school protocol?

What happens if another student gets shot by the teacher? Liability issues?

What happens if the students find out a teacher is carrying?

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Great questions Coach.  SF is generally supportive of the idea of allowing teachers being armed obviously with many rules in place to (hopefully) avoid pitfalls. 

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3 minutes ago, Coach_K said:

I am not sure how I feel about school personnel carrying because of the following questions:

Does a teacher carrying make the school safer?

Where do the majority of school shooting take place? (Classroom, common areas, hallways, etc.)  When do these occurrences happen? (Is there a pattern?)

Does the teacher with a gun pursue the school shooter? What happens if he/she breaks school protocol?

What happens if another student gets shot by the teacher? Liability issues?

What happens if the students find out a teacher is carrying?

Key word in my post trained.

All good questions. My main point, if I am trained and have an Indiana LTCH, why can't I defend myself with a firearm in a school or similar soft target?

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6 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Key word in my post trained.

All good questions. My main point, if I am trained and have an Indiana LTCH, why can't I defend myself with a firearm in a school or similar soft target?

To your point, if school personnel can already have firearms on school property with authorization from the school board, is there a legal argument against it?  If it is state law on the books, I would argue no.

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11 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Key word in my post trained.

All good questions. My main point, if I am trained and have an Indiana LTCH, why can't I defend myself with a firearm in a school or similar soft target?

My concern is that even trained professionals have failed in these instances. Coach K does bring up some questions that are not being addressed. The big one being liability. Insurance companies are already saying they will not cover accidents. We have heard of several accidents, or misfires across the country already. The one issue of liability that has not been addressed......what if an armed teacher does nothing in a given situation? Does that open the school up to more lawsuits? One additional concern I have, if a teacher is in a situation of exchanging fire before police arrive; all police know is there is an active shooter. If they see a gun in hand, they are firing. They are not taking time to ask questions.

Just way too many questions in my opinion; and I think it changes the whole dynamic of the teacher-student relationship.

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Maybe this will shed some light as to why the MSM is so silent about the shooters......This is from a UK paper - Google "Colorado school shooter father illegal alien"  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7012485/Father-Colorado-school-shooter-Alec-McKinney-serial-felon-illegal-immigrant.html?fbclid=IwAR2OnCmvKI9o0UFocR0dq3bv7upXv3TFd5s12pYT0BBPXwNwC-Ha4fSaOiA

This group of kid shooters really sound troubled.  So it couldn't have been their fault.  I mean really these kids are not the "prototype" shooter the MSM likes to cover.

 

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Or... he is a minor, so they are showing some restraint. The boy who did the school shooting in Fishers  a few years ago, as far as I am aware, has never been named by the media because he is a minor. 

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4 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

Or... he is a minor, so they are showing some restraint. The boy who did the school shooting in Fishers  a few years ago, as far as I am aware, has never been named by the media because he is a minor. 

I believe you are correct. In fact I've heard media personnel talk about the fact his name was readily available on social media, but they were honoring the fact he was a juvenile. 

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18 is a minor? - (yeah, one is a 16 yo)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/colorado-shooting-suspect-denounced-all-these-christians-who-hate-gays

On his now-deleted Facebook account, Devon Erickson, 18, posted: "You know what I hate? All these Christians who hate gays, yet in the bible, it says in Deuteronomy 17:12-13, if someone doesn’t do what their priest tells them to do, they are supposed to die. It has plenty of crazy stuff like that. But all they get out of it is ‘ewwwwww gays.'

The other suspect in the shooting, which left one dead and seven wounded, has been identified as in court documents as Maya McKinney, a 16-year-old female who identifies as a transgender male and prefers to be called Alec.

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3 hours ago, swordfish said:

18 is a minor? - (yeah, one is a 16 yo)

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/colorado-shooting-suspect-denounced-all-these-christians-who-hate-gays

On his now-deleted Facebook account, Devon Erickson, 18, posted: "You know what I hate? All these Christians who hate gays, yet in the bible, it says in Deuteronomy 17:12-13, if someone doesn’t do what their priest tells them to do, they are supposed to die. It has plenty of crazy stuff like that. But all they get out of it is ‘ewwwwww gays.'

The other suspect in the shooting, which left one dead and seven wounded, has been identified as in court documents as Maya McKinney, a 16-year-old female who identifies as a transgender male and prefers to be called Alec.

Your article in your prior post was about the kid who is 16, which, yes, makes him a minor.  

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8 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

Your article in your prior post was about the kid who is 16, which, yes, makes him a minor.  

Your point has validity......until you notice the (s) plurals that were placed everywhere in my post......and the "group" reference may have been aimed only at the 16 yo.......

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In one of the articles linked, at least one of the shooters was using drugs, "legal and illegal" and had been in therapy. 

As I have stated before no one wants to look at the white elephant in the room, there is a recurring theme in "most" of these shootings and everyone refuses to see it.

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