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Cinderella is a myth


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3 minutes ago, Bobref said:

I was not only living in Indiana in 1985, I was officiating in Indiana in 1985.

Did you tell the Ihsaa not to go to the all-in back in 1985?  I don't remember that many people saying don't do this or being upset about it.  Do you remember what the coaches and players were saying about the all-in back in 1985?  Since you were officiating back then, I figure you might remember what everyone was saying?

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11 minutes ago, Tippy said:

Did you tell the Ihsaa not to go to the all-in back in 1985?  I don't remember that many people saying don't do this or being upset about it.  Do you remember what the coaches and players were saying about the all-in back in 1985?  Since you were officiating back then, I figure you might remember what everyone was saying?

To be honest, I don’t recall much about it. I was just starting my own crew around then, and I wasn’t all that interested in the big picture. Most of my football efforts were focused on building our crew and getting better as a Referee and crew chief. However, I became very familiar with the history of the tournament when I wrote an article about it years ago. In connection with that, I interviewed some of the key people involved back then. Got first person accounts of what went on and why it happened.

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38 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

What’s the harm in advocating a postseason format that challenges the powers that be to make the regular season mean something by qualifying for a tournament through regular season success and achievements?

I’m for seeding but not leaving teams out. Seeding would take care of some the complaints. 

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3 hours ago, Tippy said:

Did you tell the Ihsaa not to go to the all-in back in 1985?  I don't remember that many people saying don't do this or being upset about it.  Do you remember what the coaches and players were saying about the all-in back in 1985?  Since you were officiating back then, I figure you might remember what everyone was saying?

Just a quick synopsis as I remember it--the IHSAA was sued by South Bend St Joseph's players because they had failed to make the tournament after going unbeaten two straight regular seasons during the point system qualifier. St Joe lost their case, but the IHSAA went to the cluster system to avoid further litigation from other unbeaten teams. Instead, Catholic Schools in Marion County sued over discrimination due to their cluster grouping, since the IHSAA put five Catholic schools in the same AA sectional (Ritter, Brebeuf, Scecina, Chatard, Cathedral), IHSAA won that lawsuit also, but the cluster was widely despised after year one's results. (Looked this up)--eight 9-1 teams didn't make the playoffs the first cluster year, a dozen 8-2 teams were left out also. Scheduling was a mess, consequently big gates were lost, and conferences were wrecked. Amzie Miller at New Prairie hated the cluster, and was the driving force behind the all-in playoff. The schools overwhelmingly voted in favor of the all-in. The school vote in Northwest Indiana's District 1 was 40-0 in favor of the all-in playoff. The state's other four district's votes were not unanimous, but overwhelmingly in favor also.

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52 minutes ago, Stoner said:

Just a quick synopsis as I remember it--the IHSAA was sued by South Bend St Joseph's players because they had failed to make the tournament after going unbeaten two straight regular seasons during the point system qualifier. St Joe lost their case, but the IHSAA went to the cluster system to avoid further litigation from other unbeaten teams. Instead, Catholic Schools in Marion County sued over discrimination due to their cluster grouping, since the IHSAA put five Catholic schools in the same AA sectional (Ritter, Brebeuf, Scecina, Chatard, Cathedral), IHSAA won that lawsuit also, but the cluster was widely despised after year one's results. (Looked this up)--eight 9-1 teams didn't make the playoffs the first cluster year, a dozen 8-2 teams were left out also. Scheduling was a mess, consequently big gates were lost, and conferences were wrecked. Amzie Miller at New Prairie hated the cluster, and was the driving force behind the all-in playoff. The schools overwhelmingly voted in favor of the all-in. The school vote in Northwest Indiana's District 1 was 40-0 in favor of the all-in playoff. The state's other four district's votes were not unanimous, but overwhelmingly in favor also.

Thank You!  I wonder what the school vote would be today?

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On 10/17/2022 at 3:17 PM, Footballking16 said:

End of week 8 up until kickoff of the opening round of sectionals always brings up the qualifier debate, one I'm deeply passionate about. One of the biggest talking points for keeping the all-in is this roundabout myth that bottom half Sagarin teams flourish in the state tournament. Short answer is....they don't. If sectionals were seeded accordingly it would only further my point that a qualifier that cuts the field in half at the conclusion of the regular season is more than an appropriate measure for the IHSAA to put out a more competitive and exciting product come tournament time. I have decided to once again track every postseason outcome (especially games that feature a top half Sagarin rated team vs a bottom half Sagarin rated team), and if history repeats itself, will only further the narrative for a new postseason format.

6A

Sectional 1

Crown Point (7) vs Portage (28)

Lake Central (23) vs Lafayette Jefferson (16)

Sectional 2

FW Carroll (9) vs Penn (14)

Elkhart (21) vs Warsaw (17)

Sectional 3

Fishers (8) vs FW Northrop (29)

Homestead (22) vs HSE (4)

Sectional 4

Westfield (10) vs Carmel (5)

Zionsville (20) vs Noblesville (18)

Sectional 5

Brownsburg (2) vs Ben Davis (6)

Avon (19) vs Pike (24)

Sectional 6

Lawrence North (13) vs Cathedral (1)

North Central (27) vs Lawrence Central (12)

Sectional 7

Tech (30) vs Perry Meridian (25)

Warren Central (11) vs Southport (31)

Sectional 8

Center Grove (3) vs Franklin Central (15)

Columbus North (26) vs Jeffersonville (32)

5A

SECTIONAL 9 

Munster (30) at Merrillville (5)

Hammond Central (25) at Hammond Morton (32)

SECTIONAL 10 

Valparaiso (9) at LaPorte (23)

Chesterton (7) at Michigan City (19)

SECTIONAL 11 

Concord (15) at Goshen (28)

South Bend Adams (26) at Mishawaka (8)

SECTIONAL 12 

Anderson (27) at Fort Wayne North (6)

Fort Wayne Snider (1) at Fort Wayne Dwenger (16)

SECTIONAL 13 

McCutcheon (21) at Decatur Central (11)

Plainfield (13) at Harrison (West Lafayette) (10)

SECTIONAL 14 [BRACKET]

Franklin (4) at Terre Haute South (12)

Terre Haute North (24) at Whiteland (2)

SECTIONAL 15 [BRACKET]

Seymour (22) at Bloomington North (18)

Bloomington South (3) at Columbus East (20)

SECTIONAL 16 

Floyd Central (29) at Evansville North (17)

Castle (14) at New Albany (31)

4A

SECTIONAL 17 

Lowell (26) at Culver Academy (42)

Kankakee Valley (43) at New Prairie (10)

Gary West (28) at Hobart (16)

Highland (45) at East Chicago Central (62)

SECTIONAL 18 

Wawasee (46) at Logansport (25)

Northridge (18) at South Bend Riley (41)

NorthWood (5) at South Bend Washington (56)

South Bend St. Joseph (38) at Plymouth (53)

SECTIONAL 19 

East Noble (30) at Angola (23)

Fort Wayne South (50) at Leo (17)

New Haven (29) at DeKalb (39)

Columbia City (6) at Fort Wayne Wayne (32)

SECTIONAL 20 

Mississinewa (27) at Marion (54)

Huntington North (44) at Muncie Central (36)

Kokomo (11) at Frankfort (61)

Western (24) at Jay County (52)

SECTIONAL 21 

Brebeuf Jesuit (4) at Northview (21)

Lebanon (20) at Mooresville (8)

Indianapolis Roncalli (2) at Indianapolis Shortridge (59)

Indianapolis Washington (63) at Indianapolis Attucks (58)

SECTIONAL 22 

Richmond (57) at Connersville (37)

Beech Grove (31) at New Castle (40)

New Palestine (1) at Mount Vernon (Fortville) (9)

Pendleton Heights (19) at Greenfield-Central (12)

SECTIONAL 23 

Bedford North Lawrence (35) at Shelbyville (49)

Martinsville (13) at Greenwood (33)

Silver Creek (51) at Jennings County (48)

Edgewood (60) at East Central (3)

SECTIONAL 24 

Evansville Memorial (14) at Evansville Bosse (47)

Boonville (22) at Evansville Harrison (34)

Evansville Central (55) at Evansville Reitz (7)

Jasper (15) at Winner Game 1

3A

SECTIONAL 25 

Twin Lakes (60) at West Lafayette (2)

Boone Grove (50) at Calumet (31)

Griffith (46) at River Forest (48)

Hanover Central (6) at Rensselaer Central (34)

SECTIONAL 26 

Mishawaka Marian (42) at West Noble (23)

Lakeland (44) at Knox (16)

South Bend Clay (64) at Jimtown (24)

Fairfield (39) at John Glenn (37)

SECTIONAL 27 

Norwell (1) at Heritage (27)

Fort Wayne Concordia (32) at Woodlan (38)

Yorktown (14) at Delta (28)

Bellmont (59) at Garrett (36)

SECTIONAL 28 

Indianapolis Chatard (3) at Northwestern (53)

Hamilton Heights (13) at Maconaquah (47)

Guerin Catholic (9) at Oak Hill (10)

Tippecanoe Valley (18) at Peru (56)

SECTIONAL 29 

Western Boone (5) at Crawfordsville (54)

Tri-West (8) at Danville (25)

Monrovia (45) at Purdue Polytechnic (63)

Speedway (19) at North Montgomery (21)

SECTIONAL 30 

Vincennes Lincoln (17) at Gibson Southern (7)

Owen Valley (12) at Mount Vernon (Posey) (26)

Princeton (62) at West Vigo (57)

Washington (61) at Pike Central (58)

SECTIONAL 31 

Lawrenceburg (4) at South Dearborn (22)

Greensburg (43) at Rushville (52)

Indian Creek (30) at Franklin County (41)

Batesville (40) at Centerville (33)

SECTIONAL 32 

Scottsburg (49) at Corydon Central (51)

North Harrison (29) at Southridge (11)

Madison (35) at Heritage Hills (15)

Charlestown (19) at Salem (55)

2A

SECTIONAL 33 

Whiting (41) at LaVille (3)

Wheeler (45) at Bremen (30)

Hammond Noll (61) at Lake Station (57)

Andrean (7) at Winner Game 1

SECTIONAL 34 

Winamac (43) at Lafayette Central Catholic (10)

Rochester (11) at Seeger (24)

Benton Central (48) at Delphi (40)

Lewis Cass (13) at Winner Game 1

SECTIONAL 35 

Prairie Heights (51) at Fort Wayne Luers (8)

Churubusco (9) at Central Noble (39)

Eastside (5) at Wabash (47)

Manchester (46) at Whitko (60)

SECTIONAL 36 

Eastbrook (19) at Frankton (33)

Elwood (59) at Alexandria (37)

Bluffton (23) at Blackford (54)

Tipton (27) at Eastern (Greentown) (22)

SECTIONAL 37 

Linton-Stockton (2) at South Vermillion (25)

North Knox (31) at Southmont (16)

Sullivan (12) at North Putnam (32)

Greencastle (36) at Cascade (15)

SECTIONAL 38 

Indianapolis Ritter (44) at Shenandoah (21)

Heritage Christian (14) at Northeastern (20)

Winchester (52) at Lapel (26)

Eastern Hancock (35) at Union County (50)

SECTIONAL 39 

Triton Central (1) at Christel House Manual (56)

Brownstown Central (28) at Brown County (58)

Switzerland County (55) at Indianapolis Scecina (4)

Clarksville (38) at Eastern (Pekin) (49)

SECTIONAL 40 

Forest Park (42) at North Posey (17)

Mitchell (53) at Paoli (29)

Tell City (34) at Crawford County (62)

Perry Central (18) at Evansville Mater Dei (6)

1A

SECTIONAL 41 

Bowman Academy (49) at South Central (Union Mills) (55)

North Newton (54) at Culver (27)

Triton (10) at Pioneer (29)

North Judson (3) at South Newton (33)

SECTIONAL 42 

Clinton Central (56) at Traders Point Christian (24)

North Vermillion (23) at Covington (42)

Park Tudor (14) at Clinton Prairie (32)

Fountain Central (30) at Attica (59)

SECTIONAL 43 

Frontier (43) at Taylor (51)

West Central (21) at Caston (45)

Tri-County (53) at Tri-Central (34)

Carroll (Flora) (15) at North White (37)

SECTIONAL 44 

Fremont (39) at South Adams (16)

Adams Central (2) at Southwood (12)

North Miami (31) at Madison-Grant (13)

Northfield (18) at Southern Wells (46)

SECTIONAL 45 

Union City (57) at Sheridan (8)

Indiana Deaf (38) at Indianapolis Tindley (44)

Wes-Del (47) at Hagerstown (36)

Monroe Central (28) at Winner Game 1

SECTIONAL 46 

Knightstown (58) at Edinburgh (40)

South Decatur (48) at Milan (26)

North Decatur (4) at Tri (11)

Cambridge City Lincoln (60) at Winner Game 1

SECTIONAL 47 

South Putnam (6) at Indianapolis Lutheran (1)

Riverton Parke (19) at North Central (Farmersburg) (41)

Covenant Christian (7) at Parke Heritage (50)

Cloverdale (52) at Winner Game 1

SECTIONAL 48 

South Spencer (20) at Tecumseh (5)

Springs Valley (17) at Providence (9)

West Washington (25) at Eastern Greene (35)

North Daviess (22) at Winner Game 1

 

By doing it this way can you tell which sectional is weakest, most balanced, or strongest?

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7 hours ago, Jbk2 said:

By doing it this way can you tell which sectional is weakest, most balanced, or strongest?

Sectional 24 in my opinion most balanced given the way the draw was set up. 

Sectional 31 pretty weak, top two teams Lawrenceburg/South Dearborn play week 1 and winner should have a walk to a sectional championship.

Both Sectional 21 and 22 are loaded but due to the blind draw are miserably set up. Both these sectionals are prime reasons why there needs to be seeding. It shouldn't be this hard for the IHSAA to figure it out by now. 

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45 minutes ago, 5GetsYou1 said:

I really don't understand the narrative of making the regular season mean something. When's the last time you stepped on a football field? No player is going into a game thinking, "It doesn't really matter, we make the playoffs either way."

Well there hasn't been a single regular season game with playoff implications in almost 30 years, so no way of really telling.

Last week Merrillville pulled all of their starters in the regular season finale and inexplicitly lost to Chesterton. In a format with a postseason qualifier with seeding and home field advantage throughout at stake, Merrillville's loss could have potentially lost them home field advantage. But naturally the postseason field was already set by that time in the current all-in and the result of that game mattered zero iota so Merrillville stood nothing to lose by doing what they did. 

Edited by Footballking16
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14 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Last week Merrillville pulled all of their starters in the regular season finale and inexplicitly lost to Chesterton.

Is this anecdotal via GID alter egos, or is there evidence this occurred before the game was already out of hand at 35-10?  At least from what I can tell on Digital Scout, Merrillville's starting QB and RB (and at least a couple of the WR's, a bit hard to tell if it was all of them) were still in until at least their second to last drive, which ended with less than 5 minutes left in the game. 

Now, was there a mass defensive substitution early in the game? Maybe. Seems off to pull out all the D but leave the starting O in.  Or did everyone on offense except most of the starting skills get subbed out on offense?  Also possible. But if you're leaving your starting QB/RB in to get waylaid behind a JV, I mean a frosh offensive line before heading into the playoffs, you should maybe think about your game planning a bit better.

But I do have it on good authority that Merrillville's Junior Football League Flag Football kids got some quality reps in that contest though.  From TWO completely different people that support two different teams and aren't actually the same person replying to themselves in threads to perpetuate their own exaggerations and lies.

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50 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Well there hasn't been a single regular season game with playoff implications in almost 30 years, so no way of really telling.

Last week Merrillville pulled all of their starters in the regular season finale and inexplicitly lost to Chesterton. In a format with a postseason qualifier with seeding and home field advantage throughout at stake, Merrillville's loss could have potentially lost them home field advantage. But naturally the postseason field was already set by that time in the current all-in and the result of that game mattered zero iota so Merrillville stood nothing to lose by doing what they did. 

It isn't unreasonable to think the same thing might happen if a team had to qualify. Say MV had locked up a spot in the tournament, and was playing a tough opponent in Wk 1 of the playoffs. Whose to say they wouldn't pull their starters for a "meaningless' late season game to rest up for the playoffs? In any event, I suspect the number of teams sitting starters is very, very low.

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3 minutes ago, tango said:

It isn't unreasonable to think the same thing might happen if a team had to qualify. Say MV had locked up a spot in the tournament, and was playing a tough opponent in Wk 1 of the playoffs. Whose to say they wouldn't pull their starters for a "meaningless' late season game to rest up for the playoffs? In any event, I suspect the number of teams sitting starters is very, very low.

If you've locked up a #1 seed you deserve to sit your starters. You earned that #1 seed. 

You can't tell me that a regular season finale between two teams in which the winning team makes the playoffs and the loser goes home has the same connotation as a regular season finale in the current climate. Not a single IHSAA player today and guessing very, very few coaches have ever coached in this state in a regular season game with those implications. 

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8 hours ago, Bobref said:

If possible, even more lopsided. That’s the entitlement mentality resulting from 35+ years of all in.

I'm not sure it's a question of entitlement.  I seriously doubt there are many, if any, teams thinking, "Hey, we pulled one over on everyone and got a free extra game for doing nothing" or there are teams out there not practicing during the regular season and playing XBox during the week and then "strapping them on" come post-season.  I mean even the teams with the worst records are working during the season ... and some of them are working quite hard.  They may not have the money or leadership or community support or economic environment to make 9-0, 8-1, or even 2-7 runs, but they work.

Realize that I came from a state where your season could easily be over around the third or fourth game of a season ... and that could be by a single point each game.  When I came to Indiana, I will freely admit that I was 1) a big-school bigot and 2) completely perplexed by an all-in system.  I've since come to love small-school ball and embraced the all-in format as a way to provide a way to "cap off" a season whether it ended at LOS or after the very first attempt.  I'm as competitive as the next guy, but coaching youth changed my perspective with the realization that the sport is so much more than just the game, that the vast majority of the victories that I had with my players had little to do with scoreboards, it's a special kid that plays football and even if a guy wears a different color uniform he's still a brother in arms, and ultimately, so few of these kids will do anything on the field with a helmet on after high school, so perhaps selfishly for them, I don't have much of an issue with them getting one opportunity a year ... for four years max ... to get that one last chance to hope against hope.

With the above said, I don't have an issue with the idea of seeding and I think that's a good compromise between half the folks get a chance and everyone gets a chance.  It reduces the chances of top teams squaring off in the first game of a section and, potentially, saves that matchup for the sectional championship.  It adds weight to the regular season for those who want/need that impetus and also accounts for those who don't sometimes have that luxury.

One thing that might also provide for a compromise. although I've not yet thought out the logistics yet since I'm spitballing here, is a double post-season ... something akin to the NCAA tournament and an NIT.  You could have a situation where there's a qualification to play in the state tournament and if you don't make that cut, you play in the "Indiana NIT."  The main issue becomes the "championship game" in the INIT as it would/could detract from the regular state championships unless scheduled on the following weekend ... and you of course couldn't get LOS for that, but you might be able to get a couple of the local college fields.

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22 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You can't tell me that a regular season finale between two teams in which the winning team makes the playoffs and the loser goes home

Replace "regular season finale" with Round 1 and "makes the playoffs" with Round 2 and it is the exact same thing, except now the players that lasted the season get to play one more game. 

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1 minute ago, Tippy said:

In 1979 the last game of the season between LCC and Hobart was cancelled after Hobart qualified for the playoffs.  Don't pull your starters, just don't play the game at all.

I understand the issue of not playing a game because of safety ... e.g., being undermanned.  I understand pulling your starters and resting them.  I understand letting your junior guys or the guys that don't typically play a lot getting in to get some reps or minutes or potentially even the bulk of a game.  I don't understand canceling a game against an opponent "just because." 

I'm not sure if it was a bad blood situation and it was just safer not to have the teams play/meet ... similar to the issue with LCC and Seeger many years ago ... that I would totally get. 

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1 minute ago, 5GetsYou1 said:

Replace "regular season finale" with Round 1 and "makes the playoffs" with Round 2 and it is the exact same thing, except now the players that lasted the season get to play one more game. 

In my playoff proposal a tenth regular season game is added just so every team gets that tenth game of entitlement. 

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31 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

You can't tell me that a regular season finale between two teams in which the winning team makes the playoffs and the loser goes home has the same connotation as a regular season finale in the current climate. 

The argument espoused is that is would make the regular season "better". Just because the result of the game may have some implication for either team, it doesn't mean the game itself (level of play, coaching or officiating) will be better. 

Maybe its different down here, but I have never seen an SIAC or PAC school not giving 100%. Two examples...

(1) Two weeks ago, we beat Vincennes Lincoln and there was a missed call that cost VL a TD. Bobref admitted the ref was out of position. HUDL confirms the ref made the wrong call. What if that game cost VL a spot in the playoffs? 

(2) Like Cathedral and Dwenger, we are by far the smallest school in our class due to SF. Depth is a huge issue and probably cost us last year in Semi-State against MV Fortville. We have more than the normal amount of players who are banged up and could probably have used a week off last week, but we played 5A Castle in SIAC "Rivalry Week". None of those kids sat out, because for us a game against Castle (in any sport) means a lot. 

Coaches, players, officials, fans, etc. really can't give 110%. The argument that the regular season would be "better" assumes they can. 

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7 minutes ago, tango said:

Coaches, players, officials, fans, etc. really can't give 110%. The argument that the regular season would be "better" assumes they can.

Mindset, preparation, management etc are completely different from week 1 to week 9 and week 10 under the current climate. There's no way to argue otherwise. Lose in week 9 you still have week 10. Lose in week 10 your season is over. Magnify that mindset over 100 games a week for several weeks in a qualifying format and that completely changes the narrative of the regular season.

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15 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I understand the issue of not playing a game because of safety ... e.g., being undermanned.  I understand pulling your starters and resting them.  I understand letting your junior guys or the guys that don't typically play a lot getting in to get some reps or minutes or potentially even the bulk of a game.  I don't understand canceling a game against an opponent "just because." 

I'm not sure if it was a bad blood situation and it was just safer not to have the teams play/meet ... similar to the issue with LCC and Seeger many years ago ... that I would totally get. 

The game was cancelled just because Hobart qualified for the playoffs.  I think the playoff game was played on Tuesday and I guess Hobart didn't want to play two games that close together.

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32 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I understand the issue of not playing a game because of safety ... e.g., being undermanned.  I understand pulling your starters and resting them.  I understand letting your junior guys or the guys that don't typically play a lot getting in to get some reps or minutes or potentially even the bulk of a game.  I don't understand canceling a game against an opponent "just because." 

I'm not sure if it was a bad blood situation and it was just safer not to have the teams play/meet ... similar to the issue with LCC and Seeger many years ago ... that I would totally get. 

Sounds like the qualifier created a game that held no meaning.

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49 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Mindset, preparation, management etc are completely different from week 1 to week 9 and week 10 under the current climate. There's no way to argue otherwise. Lose in week 9 you still have week 10. Lose in week 10 your season is over. Magnify that mindset over 100 games a week for several weeks in a qualifying format and that completely changes the narrative of the regular season.

So you're telling me Cathedral's players and coaches would have prepared more, focused more, and played/managed better in that Wk. 2 match-up with Brownsburg if it was some sort of qualifier game? 

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