Ballhawk Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 It's typical for the officials on here to stick up for the crew and try to deflect this onto the players and coaches. This isn't about a player or coach committing an infraction or dropping a pass. It's about a crew member who forgot one of his responsibilities. My question is how are these handled by the IHSAA? Obviously you don't suspend the crew for life from the tourney. What do they do? There has to be some accountability. I'm not interested in officials rallying around someone and trying to defend his mistake. This wasn't a judgment call, it was something they should be doing every play of every game. They are the professionals assigned to officiate the game, not a bunch of guys rounded up to call it at the last minute. They are also subject to criticism just like the players and coaches are. Bob, how do you handle this is you are the HS football officiating czar? I respect you, you've worked a couple games we were a part of, so I really want to know what happens next? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 25 minutes ago, Ballhawk said: It's typical for the officials on here to stick up for the crew and try to deflect this onto the players and coaches. This isn't about a player or coach committing an infraction or dropping a pass. It's about a crew member who forgot one of his responsibilities. My question is how are these handled by the IHSAA? Obviously you don't suspend the crew for life from the tourney. What do they do? There has to be some accountability. I'm not interested in officials rallying around someone and trying to defend his mistake. This wasn't a judgment call, it was something they should be doing every play of every game. They are the professionals assigned to officiate the game, not a bunch of guys rounded up to call it at the last minute. They are also subject to criticism just like the players and coaches are. Bob, how do you handle this is you are the HS football officiating czar? I respect you, you've worked a couple games we were a part of, so I really want to know what happens next? First of all, you are dead wrong to characterize this as “officials rallying around someone and trying to defend his mistake.” No one has done anything of the sort. This was an egregious mistake. They happen. The challenge is to learn from them and get better … just like coaches, players, and people from all walks of life. Criticism? Yes, it comes with the job. And this crew deserves it. Let me change your last question a little bit. How would I have handled this if this had been a game I was assigned to observe? First, in the locker room following the game this would have been the #1 topic of our debriefing session. And the discussion would be very frank. It is in no one’s interest to sugarcoat it. Then I would talk with them about how the other members of the crew might have been able to prevent this. There is a backup for almost every job on the crew. We would not leave the locker room until everyone on the crew had a clear understanding of what happened, why it happened, and how to prevent it from happening in the future. The last thing I would do is try to help the crew mentally move past this. A mistake like this can have a lingering effect on a crew … and the easiest way to make a mistake out there is to be thinking about the last mistake you made. If you are asking whether there should be some sort of sanction against this official and/or the crew, in my judgment, that would serve no purpose at this point. This crew worked only the first round of the tournament in 2020 and 2021, but this year they got a second round assignment. So, someone believes they are getting better. The last thing you would want to do is take a playoff game away from them and stifle that trend of improvement. Instead, use this as a teaching moment. I’m glad they have another game. You don’t want this to be the memory you dwell on the entire off season. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5GetsYou1 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Bobref said: In reality the back judge has a number of pre-snap responsibilities in addition to counting the defense Count defense, observe formation, find pre-snap keys, consider how your keys change with motion, remember what keys did last play, play clock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, 5GetsYou1 said: Count defense, observe formation, find pre-snap keys, consider how your keys change with motion, remember what keys did last play, play clock. Don’t forget to signal your count and communicate the strength of the formation to your wings, so they can get their keys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Identify down and distance to anticipate the type of play that may occur. Get your proper depth from the LOS. If we are inside the 20 are you on the goal line or end line? Is your key pressed? Can you key on the T at the snap to determine run/pass. Is the game clock running and should it? If there was an administrative stop you are telling the R we have a hot clock or dead clock. If there was a foul on the previous play you are writing in on your game card for your crew to review on Hudl. If there was a deep run into the side zone or sideline you were there to help clean up and walk players out of an opposing bench. Help rotate in the ball from the wing to the umpire. If there is no visible play clock you are starting your stop watch. Scrimmage kicks have all of these and more for the BJ. So yes there are many jobs a B does in the 20-40 seconds between plays. Counting the defense is at or very close to the top though. I will admit I've had plays where I wasn't able to get my count done for a variety of reasons. But I try to do it every time so I don't miss it when I need it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impartial_Observer Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 On 10/27/2022 at 8:41 AM, Bobref said: You have an unfair advantage in that regard. 😂🤣 Yes I agree 100%, but I wouldn’t be much of a coach if I didn’t take advantage of my knowledge….and others’ lack thereof. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 42 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said: Yes I agree 100%, but I wouldn’t be much of a coach if I didn’t take advantage of my knowledge….and others’ lack thereof. I wonder how many coaches are even aware that the NF publishes a coaches’ Code of Ethics, which includes: “The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuccaguy Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 (edited) Looks like even the BEST can't count sometimes: The Buffalo Bills had 12 men on the field when they made a critical defensive play in overtime in their wild game Sunday against the Minnesota Vikings. The play occurred with 5 minutes, 17 seconds remaining in the overtime period, just after the Vikings had completed a 24-yard pass to receiver Justin Jefferson to set up a first-and-goal at the Bills' 2-yard line. On the next play, Vikings tailback Dalvin Cook was tackled for a 3-yard loss. Minnesota coach Kevin O'Connell said afterward that "I do believe there was 12 players on the field" on that play but said he wanted to confirm that via tape. An ESPN review of the game video clearly shows 12 defensive players. Had it been flagged, the Vikings would have had first down at the 1-yard line instead of second-and-goal at the 5. EDITOR'S PICKS Barnwell: Making sense of the NFL's game of the season, from Jefferson's amazing catch to Buffalo's head-scratching flaw 7hBill Barnwell 'Look at us now': Vikes rally again, stun Bills in OT 19h Allen says injury a nonissue as late TOs cost Bills 19hAlaina Getzenberg Vikings quarterback Kirk Cousins took a sack on second down and threw an incompletion on third down, leading to a field goal that allowed the Bills to have a possession. "I know it's moving pretty fast out there sometimes," O'Connell said. Earlier, the NFL's on-site replay booth failed to initiate a review on what was ruled a completed 20-yard catch by Bills receiver Gabe Davis with 17 seconds remaining in regulation. Walt Anderson, NFL senior vice president of officiating, later told a pool reporter that the play should have been reviewed and that it would have been reversed to incomplete if it had been. That completion put the Bills in position to tie the game and send it into overtime. Edited November 14, 2022 by Yuccaguy clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 Just now, Yuccaguy said: Looks like even the BEST can't count sometimes: http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=35025658 Replay could have helped with this too. No matter how hard we try it's impossible to have a perfect game. You need to count EVERY play. If there are 180 plays in a game you have to count 180 times. If you do miss one you only hope it's not one where the team has more than 11 and if it is you hope it's 2nd and 8 in the middle of the first quarter and not at an instance like this. Of course if it happened on 2nd and 8 in the middle of the first quarter nobody is going to bring it up n public. I know many officials who count players while watching a game on TV! I finally broke myself of that habit, but I do often still count for 4 in the backfield on the offense and look at the formation to see if they have trips, balanced or 21. It's weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 8 minutes ago, JustRules said: I know many officials who count players while watching a game on TV After so many years as a Referee, I habitually count the offense every play when I see a game in person. It’s kind of an annoyance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impartial_Observer Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 7 minutes ago, Bobref said: After so many years as a Referee, I habitually count the offense every play when I see a game in person. It’s kind of an annoyance. Word! And I see nearly as much of the left tackle as his mother. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Impartial_Observer said: Word! And I see nearly as much of the left tackle as his mother. I love when I talk with a player or coach and explain how we read run/pass just like they do so it helps us read and react on a play and where to put our focus (and that's different for each official). It's not just watching the play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzoron Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, JustRules said: I know many officials who count players while watching a game on TV! I know many spectators who yell at officials while watching a game on TV! Ok, it's 1, I know 1. Edited November 15, 2022 by gonzoron 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 5 hours ago, gonzoron said: I know many spectators who yell at officials while watching a game on TV! Ok, it's 1, I know 1. I used to be him! My parent's basement couch has a notch in the wood frame of their couch from a clipboard I may or may not have thrown when I was 15 after my team lost due to a horrible officiating call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeqb Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 18 hours ago, JustRules said: I know many officials who count players while watching a game on TV! I finally broke myself of that habit, but I do often still count for 4 in the backfield on the offense and look at the formation to see if they have trips, balanced or 21. It's weird. Related - I feel like the NFL has given up trying to make sure the inside/slot receiver isn't covered up by the wideout. I watch games and there is no way one of them is off and one is on. I can't be the only one watching games on Sunday and think "No way is that guy eligible to go downfield." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonace1 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 1 hour ago, oldtimeqb said: Related - I feel like the NFL has given up trying to make sure the inside/slot receiver isn't covered up by the wideout. I watch games and there is no way one of them is off and one is on. I can't be the only one watching games on Sunday and think "No way is that guy eligible to go downfield." I'm not an official, but I do the same. I'm always looking to see if the slots are covered up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 12 hours ago, JustRules said: I used to be him! My parent's basement couch has a notch in the wood frame of their couch from a clipboard I may or may not have thrown when I was 15 after my team lost due to a horrible officiating call. A clipboard? At 15? You sure it wasn't a bong? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impartial_Observer Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 5 hours ago, Muda69 said: A clipboard? At 15? You sure it wasn't a bong? Every once in a while I see a glimmer of hope. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRules Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 8 hours ago, oldtimeqb said: Related - I feel like the NFL has given up trying to make sure the inside/slot receiver isn't covered up by the wideout. I watch games and there is no way one of them is off and one is on. I can't be the only one watching games on Sunday and think "No way is that guy eligible to go downfield." As long as I've been an official (20+) years the NFL philosophy has been "a blade of grass". They aren't going to be picky on that unless both players come out and communicate they are on. The NFL had a rule you couldn't cover an eligible number unless you reported (similar to reporting as eligible). I don't remember if they added the reporting option or removed it. It could be a foul whether or not the covered receiver goes downfield. College has a very similar philosophy of "blade of grass" so you won't see it called often there. Since you can cover an eligible number in NCAA you could also rule both on if putting one in the backfield creates an illegal formation (5 in the backfield). This is usually treated as a talk to unless it's really bad or you have already been warned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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