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False Start on Punt Shift


Bobref

Question

This issue has been addressed previously, but like a bad penny it seems we’re unable to get rid of it. Had a coach contact me to ask my opinion on a play they use on 4th and less than 5 to try to make the defense encroach. They line up in punt formation, and then their linemen shift quickly from a 2 pt. to a 3 pt. stance. Here’s a video that demonstrates the technique:

Lest there be any lingering doubt, this is a foul for a false start. Here’s what the rulebook says:

“After the ball is ready for play and before the snap begins, no false start shall be made by any A player. It is a false start if:
 
    a. A shift or feigned charge simulates action at the snap.

    b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.”

The key to the proper ruling on this and similar plays is the speed at which the linemen go from their 2 pt. to the 3 pt. stance. Such an abrupt motion when the players are already set, “simulates action at the snap,” and is a foul. Of course, it is legal to shift while in punt formation, provided it is done in a deliberate fashion, and isn’t going to make anyone think that the play is starting.

You still see this, and similar plays, with some frequency … because they work sometimes. If the play works, it’s because of an officiating mistake. And please don’t complain that it’s impossible to judge what Team A “intended.” Officials are asked to determine intent from a player’s actions all the time, e.g., intentional grounding. The bottom line is, this play is a foul by the offense in all of its many variations, because it is designed to produce a defensive encroachment foul. I just wish every officiating crew would get on board with this interpretation, since that is the only way to make this illegal tactic disappear.

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26 minutes ago, Goose Liver said:

Bush league.

Not everyone would agree. I have had very well respected and successful coaches tell me that if you aren’t pushing the rules envelope, you’re not trying hard enough.

True story. It was a semistate game. In my conference with the visiting head coach, a Hall of Fame coach, I asked the standard question about trick plays or unusual formations. He described a play where they line up in their standard punt formation and then shift a ruin an attempt “to draw them offsides.” I explained why that was a false start. He told me they had run it 6 times that season and not been flagged once. I replied that if he ran it tonight, it would be a foul. Believe it or not, they tried it. We flagged it. They won the game in a cliffhanger, and went on to the finals. They tried the play again in the championship game … and got flagged for it.

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A slower shift would be OK and this is close. I'm good with the false start. Especially on 4th and less than 5. Your intent is pretty clear. The other example you'll see especially in punt formation is the OL all in a 2-point stance shifting from wide to narrow splits or vice versa. If that's a sudden movement, flag it. If it's slow and deliberate it may still cause the defense to jump but it wouldn't be a false start.

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LOL ....this seems to have become Bobref's "cross-to-bear" so-to-speak. 

Maybe that's not the correct phrase..."white whale" ?? 

Just something that he seems to be very passionate about. 

I think I have issue with interpretation of the rule- but we've gone down that rodeo before lol

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22 hours ago, Bobref said:

Not everyone would agree. I have had very well respected and successful coaches tell me that if you aren’t pushing the rules envelope, you’re not trying hard enough.

True story. It was a semistate game. In my conference with the visiting head coach, a Hall of Fame coach, I asked the standard question about trick plays or unusual formations. He described a play where they line up in their standard punt formation and then shift a ruin an attempt “to draw them offsides.” I explained why that was a false start. He told me they had run it 6 times that season and not been flagged once. I replied that if he ran it tonight, it would be a foul. Believe it or not, they tried it. We flagged it. They won the game in a cliffhanger, and went on to the finals. They tried the play again in the championship game … and got flagged for it.

"If you're not cheating your not trying"  (Junior Johnson)  I like your response.

Edited by Goose Liver
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1 hour ago, jets said:

LOL ....this seems to have become Bobref's "cross-to-bear" so-to-speak. 

Maybe that's not the correct phrase..."white whale" ?? 

Just something that he seems to be very passionate about. 

I think I have issue with interpretation of the rule- but we've gone down that rodeo before lol

I am passionate about this. The reason: As an official you have to make a real effort to not know this rule interpretation, since it’s been out there for years and years. So, one lazy crew let’s someone get away with it, and then every crew the rest of the season that tells the coach he can’t do it suffers as a result. Same thing with sideline management. A few bad crews spoil it for the rest of us.

i might add, this is the type of thing that shows the unfairness and downright irrationality of the coaches’ vote system.

Edited by Bobref
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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

I am passionate about this. The reason: As an official you have to make a real effort to not know this rule interpretation, since it’s been out there for years and years. So, one lazy crew let’s someone get away with it, and then every crew the rest of the season that tells the coach he can’t do it suffers as a result. Same thing with sideline management. A few bad crews spoil it for the rest of us.

i might add, this is the type of thing that shows the unfairness and downright irrationality of the coaches’ vote system.

In my opinion- I don't think that's necessarily fair- as I believe the way the rule is written, it leaves itself open for interpretation. (Meaning, it's not just clearly black/white). 

What one official may view as "clearly intended" - another official may not. (I know you don't want to hear that)

And we can agree to disagree. And it the end you will be correct because you wear the stripes, and I do not! 

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1 hour ago, jets said:

What one official may view as "clearly intended" - another official may not.

And that’s why we have clinics, and association meetings, and online presentations … and the GID officiating forum … to promote as much consistency as possible.

But to be honest, on a play like this one intent isn’t that hard to judge.

Edited by Bobref
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https://youtu.be/9YIB8HRGnkU?t=2437

 

Thoughts on the shift (legal/illegal?) from this punt play from 2000.   Lineman are all in a 2pt stance before shifting out.  Someone on the line  does yell "shift" just before the movement.     They are awarded the first down but on the next play, fumble the ball to the defense!  

Video should hopefully start at the 40:40 mark.

 

 

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That seems to be a textbook case of what Bob is describing above.  I don't know if he rules were different in 2000, but that looks like blatant false start to simulate a snap...they aren't even "shifting" to a legal formation.

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