What's going on at Carmel?

[crimsonace1]

On 10/31/2022 at 5:47 PM, Footballking16 said:

You made the parameters not me. Have Carmel demographics shifted that much in the last 5 years?

On a side note, you may be on to something about the size of Carmel. I know there are a fair amount of Carmel kids not playing at Carmel.

Brebeuf has *a lot* of Carmel kids (always has) - the western Clay Township kids live right down the street. Clay Terrace, which is one of the biggest neighborhoods in Carmel, is closer to Brebeuf than it is to CHS and is full of people with the means to afford an expensive private school. Guerin Catholic also has a lot of Carmel kids (and I don't know if this is the case in football, but every time we play Cathedral in baseball, 3/4 of the license plates in the parking lot are from Hamilton County). 

And all of those schools have very good football programs. 

The type of family that seeks out Carmel to live is specifically seeking out Carmel. They tend to be well-heeled, Type A parents, but I can see this current generation of parents not being as keen on their kids playing football (and as others noted, travel sports demand specialization and soccer/baseball - especially at a place like Carmel - will snare some of those kids who would've otherwise been multi-sport athletes at young ages). However, just by sheer volume, there will be a lot of kids who are driven and *want* to play football, who are talented, from supportive families. But HSE, Fishers, Zionsville & Westfield all have a significant number of those families, too, and the sectional/regional path is likely going to feature those teams. It's not as much "what's wrong with Carmel" as it is "what's right with Westfield/HSE." Even at Carmel, HS teams do go through cycles. 

[Ballhawk]

17 hours ago, hhpatriot04 said:

I would always think that a HS with one feeder is at an advantage because it's easier for the HC to have an influence.

I would disagree to an extent.  If a HS with 3 feeder schools has kids running the same system with similar schemes and terminology, they would have a tremendous advantage as their incoming freshmen would have 3 starting QBs, 3-6 starting RBs and 15-20 starting linemen.  That's competition for spots and in theory that should make your team better.

It can be a detriment if you have coaches that don't teach fundamentals, don't run similar systems and don't work to build numbers on the team.  Then you start over when they are freshmen.

[Coach P]

Could it be, that all is well at Carmel and Schools Like Westfield are just catching up? Westfield has one of the largest youth football programs in the State. I have insider information, that the goal at Westfield was to match or overtake Carmel. All Hamilton County schools have grown substantially and can match Carmel in facilities. Have you seen the new weight room and Stadium at Westfield? 

Nobody is feeling sorry for Carmel, they will be ok..... its just that the little brothers are growing up and now can compete.

[temptation]

Are folks actually on the verge of "feeling sorry" for Carmel, lol?  Never thought I'd see the day.

Joking aside, I think it is a variety of factors and I'd even argue that Carmel is one of a select few schools in Indiana where football is not king in terms of prestige and attention.

Next question simply to be controversial and keep the conversation going...

Do Carmel kids have enough grit?

Edited November 3, 2022 by temptation

[Goose Liver]

Grit is a shrinking at an alarming level....

[Dave007]

6 hours ago, Coach P said:

Could it be, that all is well at Carmel and Schools Like Westfield are just catching up? Westfield has one of the largest youth football programs in the State. I have insider information, that the goal at Westfield was to match or overtake Carmel. All Hamilton County schools have grown substantially and can match Carmel in facilities. Have you seen the new weight room and Stadium at Westfield? 

Nobody is feeling sorry for Carmel, they will be ok..... its just that the little brothers are growing up and now can compete.

I agree, I think Westfield dominates in most if not all club / travel sports anymore in western Hamilton County, and being home to Grand Park is another attractive draw for sports-minded families to live there.  At one time Carmel's football stadium was probably among the best of all high schools in the Midwest.  Today it might not make the top 5 in the state.  

[crimsonace1]

6 hours ago, Coach P said:

Could it be, that all is well at Carmel and Schools Like Westfield are just catching up? Westfield has one of the largest youth football programs in the State. I have insider information, that the goal at Westfield was to match or overtake Carmel. All Hamilton County schools have grown substantially and can match Carmel in facilities. Have you seen the new weight room and Stadium at Westfield? 

Nobody is feeling sorry for Carmel, they will be ok..... its just that the little brothers are growing up and now can compete.

This is an astute observation. Westfield has built a great football culture, great facilities and has a very sports-centric community. You can say the same for HSE & Fishers. They've definitely caught up to Carmel and can be consistently competitive with them, and Carmel isn't really used to that coming from elsewhere in Hamilton County. For years, its biggest competition came from Ben Davis/Warren Central/Center Grove. 

[crimsonace1]

6 hours ago, temptation said:

Are folks actually on the verge of "feeling sorry" for Carmel, lol?  Never thought I'd see the day.

Joking aside, I think it is a variety of factors and I'd even argue that Carmel is one of a select few schools in Indiana where football is not king in terms of prestige and attention.

Believe me, *nobody* feels sorry for Carmel outside of Clay Township. They're still the biggest, wealthiest, most well-funded school in the state, best resources, et al. 

But the community is interesting. Much of it is transplants (so there's not really a huge local alumni base who are going to build their Friday nights around football) and as a result, a significant number of the adults have no real interest in high school sports beyond what their kids are playing. The prevalence of high-level travel sports in Carmel and Hamilton County, coupled with the interest in country club sports like swimming, tennis and golf, tends to siphon the attention away from football. Carmel is, hands down, the best overall athletic program in the state, but it is a very interesting, unique community that's difficult to replicate. My parents have lived there for a quarter-century now and my younger sister is a recent grad, so it's been interesting to watch and compare their culture to ones I've witnessed growing up in Marion County and now living in the eastern suburbs. 

[Footballking16]

20 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Believe me, *nobody* feels sorry for Carmel outside of Clay Township. They're still the biggest, wealthiest, most well-funded school in the state, best resources, et al. 

But the community is interesting. Much of it is transplants (so there's not really a huge local alumni base who are going to build their Friday nights around football) and as a result, a significant number of the adults have no real interest in high school sports beyond what their kids are playing. The prevalence of high-level travel sports in Carmel and Hamilton County, coupled with the interest in country club sports like swimming, tennis and golf, tends to siphon the attention away from football. Carmel is, hands down, the best overall athletic program in the state, but it is a very interesting, unique community that's difficult to replicate. My parents have lived there for a quarter-century now and my younger sister is a recent grad, so it's been interesting to watch and compare their culture to ones I've witnessed growing up in Marion County and now living in the eastern suburbs. 

Hard to call it a community when it's that big, I think that's the on-going issue. A town (really a city now) with 100k+ people and only one public high school is going to be a tough sell for all-in involvement. Schools that rival Carmel; Zionsville, Westfield, HSE, Fishers, Noblesville still feel like communities and all seem to have much more involvement and pride. I've always wondered what a two high school system in Carmel would look like; Carmel East and Carmel West. Obviously they'd lose their overall athletic profile which dominates the state, but both a West and East high school would still be very overly competitive in just about every sport.  

[temptation]

31 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

Believe me, *nobody* feels sorry for Carmel outside of Clay Township. They're still the biggest, wealthiest, most well-funded school in the state, best resources, et al. 

But the community is interesting. Much of it is transplants (so there's not really a huge local alumni base who are going to build their Friday nights around football) and as a result, a significant number of the adults have no real interest in high school sports beyond what their kids are playing. The prevalence of high-level travel sports in Carmel and Hamilton County, coupled with the interest in country club sports like swimming, tennis and golf, tends to siphon the attention away from football. Carmel is, hands down, the best overall athletic program in the state, but it is a very interesting, unique community that's difficult to replicate. My parents have lived there for a quarter-century now and my younger sister is a recent grad, so it's been interesting to watch and compare their culture to ones I've witnessed growing up in Marion County and now living in the eastern suburbs. 

But they set an attendance record at homecoming this year huh?

Not buying it…Carmel has hosted too many big games in its history.

Edited November 3, 2022 by temptation

[temptation]

10 minutes ago, temptation said:

But they set an attendance record at homecoming this year huh?

Not buying it…Carmel has hosted too many big games in its history.

Furthermore, I would assume that streaming impacts attendance negatively at nearly every school that offers it regularly.  Looking at IHSAAtv.net, all six Carmel home games were streamed this fall.

You can’t tell me that post pandemic, in an era where so many other options are available that Carmel’s game against that a contest against a Ben Davis team (whose fans simply don’t travel) set an attendance record.

Edited November 3, 2022 by temptation

[gonzoron]

4 minutes ago, temptation said:

Looking at IHSAAtv.net

IHSAAtv.org

[hhpatriot04]

9 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

I would disagree to an extent.  If a HS with 3 feeder schools has kids running the same system with similar schemes and terminology, they would have a tremendous advantage as their incoming freshmen would have 3 starting QBs, 3-6 starting RBs and 15-20 starting linemen.  That's competition for spots and in theory that should make your team better.

It can be a detriment if you have coaches that don't teach fundamentals, don't run similar systems and don't work to build numbers on the team.  Then you start over when they are freshmen.

I think there's a point at which enrollment reaches a point that its returns are diminishing. Only 11 or 22 guys can be one the field "at once." At some point you are spending more time on backups and participation than on the starters.

[dazed and confused]

TOO MANY ROUNDABOUTS !!!  They're so dizzy in Carmel they don't even know it !!