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6A: Carroll vs Center Grove


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8 minutes ago, temptation said:

LOL.  Yes.  Just like “travel” being cited as a major reason for road teams losing big games, an “extra purpose” is WAY down the list when it comes to important factors once the game is kicked off.

I’ve never seen Jesus wearing a head set or holding a clipboard and until I do, my “opinion” trumps yours.

I believe college English professors refer to this as “supporting evidence” and a works cited page.

I noticed you used the word MAJOR . Show me one of my post where it says travel is a MAJOR reason for teams losing. I noticed you do that quite often , slip words into your posts so that it fits your narrative . It is very hard to convict someone of a crime if there is no evidence , but that doesn't mean the person didn't do the crime . 

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15 minutes ago, BTF said:

Elaborate please. Thanks

If suggesting that Carroll being one of the Top 3 teams in the state makes me arrogant, then yes, I'm arrogant. 

It's not just one win Temp, they've been proving themselves all season long. They beat Snider, North Side, and Penn. Beat Homestead by a wider margin than HSE did. Beat Penn by a wider margin than Cathedral did. Beat a very good Jefferson team on the road. Why is it arrogant suggesting Carroll is Top 3. I'm starting to wonder if you really do want a team up north to do well. You seem a bit disturbed by the idea now that it's happening in real time. 

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24 minutes ago, BTF said:

Can't read the story and won't. It's subscription only. I won't support any newspaper that clearly leans one direction politically. No different than FW newspapers. Those running the newspapers aren't smart enough to understand 'don't mix politics with business.'

I think I get your point by looking at the title of the link. In most cases, every team has a story, some more powerful than others. 

Elaborate please. Thanks

I just think you took my advice of taking a well deserved victory lap and are attempting to turn it into two.

Carroll’s win was great and monumental for the competitive balance of the sport but to come on here and pretend that the folks who claim Indy is where the best football is played need to consider the win/loss records of IPS schools before doing so is asinine.

Are we also judging the strength of Fort Wayne area football on Northrop and South Side?

C’mon man.

3 minutes ago, BTF said:

If suggesting that Carroll being one of the Top 3 teams in the state makes me arrogant, then yes, I'm arrogant. 

It's not just one win Temp, they've been proving themselves all season long. They beat Snider, North Side, and Penn. Beat Homestead by a wider margin than HSE did. Beat Penn by a wider margin than Cathedral did. Beat a very good Jefferson team on the road. Why is it arrogant suggesting Carroll is Top 3. I'm starting to wonder if you really do want a team up north to do well. You seem a bit disturbed by the idea now that it's happening in real time. 

Suggesting they are top three is not arrogant at all…you’ve seen my poll.

Not disturbed at all.

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22 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

I noticed you used the word MAJOR . Show me one of my post where it says travel is a MAJOR reason for teams losing. I noticed you do that quite often , slip words into your posts so that it fits your narrative . It is very hard to convict someone of a crime if there is no evidence , but that doesn't mean the person didn't do the crime . 

You cited it as THE reason Valpo would lose to Snider, cited about four coaches who mentioned it in the past, and dug your heels in even after the data proved you wrong.

In these two instances the burden of proof is on you, not me.  If you claim something you better have the stats and data to back it up.  What is so hard about that?

 

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5 minutes ago, temptation said:

pretend that folks who claim Indy is where the best football is played need to consider the win/loss records of IPS schools before doing so is asinine.

Are we also judging the strength of Fort Wayne area football on Northrop and South Side?

It's not pretend. Indy arrogance has been around quite awhile. It took years just to get anyone to acknowledge the enrollment advantage. 

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12 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's not pretend. Indy arrogance has been around quite awhile. It took years just to get anyone to acknowledge the enrollment advantage. 

But isn’t the arrogance warranted?  I mean come on.  Even you have to admit that the dominance of the area (regardless of the reasoning behind it) speaks for itself.

I have spoken about the supposed enrollment advantage since the beginning of time…but CG sorta debunks that as the major contributing factor, no?

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12 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's not pretend. Indy arrogance has been around quite awhile. It took years just to get anyone to acknowledge the enrollment advantage. 

Forgot to mention I was using the Sagarin ratings as a basis for my argument that "inside the Indy donut" schools are struggling badly. 

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2 minutes ago, BTF said:

Forgot to mention I was using the Sagarin ratings as a basis for my argument that "inside the Indy donut" schools are struggling badly. 

That’s the case in every single major American city my man.  It’s simple demographics and resources…but that’s not an indictment of Indy football…especially in this thread which is dedicated to 6A.

Warren Central had what is considered a down year for their program by their standards…how many Fort Wayne area schools are you comfortably picking to beat the Warriors?

 

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28 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's not pretend. Indy arrogance has been around quite awhile. It took years just to get anyone to acknowledge the enrollment advantage. 

The MIC has been ranked consistently over the past number of years as one of the top conferences in the country, and their success is the state tournament is well documented. Now the HHC has caught up. Outside of 6A, Indy schools such as Cathedral, Chatard, Roncalli, Lutheran and others have a history of success. Is this type of evidence arrogance? 
 

Enrollments?  CG is playing in their 4th straight state final as the #17th largest school. Last 2 years, they played Westfield in the state finals…18th largest school. Carroll is #20.  Tell me again about enrollment advantage. 
 

Feels like this thread has really been hijacked….any chance we can talk about Friday’s game??

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31 minutes ago, temptation said:

But isn’t the arrogance warranted?  I mean come on.  Even you have to admit that the dominance of the area (regardless of the reasoning behind it) speaks for itself.

I have spoken about the supposed enrollment advantage since the beginning of time…but CG sorta debunks that as the major contributing factor, no?

100% and the enrollment difference between Center Grove and FW Carroll isn't that large just under 300 students. There are a multitude of reasons I am picking CG over FW Carroll, Coach Moore has a lot to do with that choice. His resume as a Head Coach over the last 28 years speaks for itself, and the platform he has taken Center Grove Football (and track as well) is quite impressive. I have watched it slowly develop after he took the job in 1999. Went 5-5 to 13-2 in 1 year, they have had a short stint of average years. Right now they pretty much just reload instead of rebuild.

image.png.21277c1462f5d37872815a1a4adea71b.png 

 

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12 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Feels like this thread has really been hijacked….any chance we can talk about Friday’s game??

On a side note it is a shame that Drew Wheat had a season ending injury his Senior year. He has been a large part of CG's success the last couple of years. Don't get me wrong CG hasn't missed a beat with Coyle, but I never enjoy seeing a Senior not being able to get out there and play!

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11 minutes ago, temptation said:

But isn’t the arrogance warranted?  I mean come on.  Even you have to admit that the dominance of the area (regardless of the reasoning behind it) speaks for itself.

I have spoken about the supposed enrollment advantage since the beginning of time…but CG sorta debunks that as the major contributing factor, no?

No, the arrogance isn't warranted. The large school divisions (6A and formerly 5A) have been ABSOLUTELY dominated by the 3 largest enrollment schools. Coincidence? Definitely no. Kudos to Center Grove for "debunking" that trend in recent years. Eric Moore is the real deal. 

For the most part, teams outside of the Indy area that are getting beaten by them are lower enrollment schools. 

Conclusion: The MIC contributed to what the HCC is today, and now the HCC is making them pay. "Competition breeds excellence." Indy suburban schools have either an enrollment advantage or an SES advantage over most of the schools they encounter outside of the Indy area. If I was forced to give an answer as to where the best football is played, I'd have to give Suburban Indy the edge. Good coaching + big enrollment + strong SES + strong competition = good luck to everyone else. 

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47 minutes ago, temptation said:

That’s the case in every single major American city my man.  It’s simple demographics and resources…but that’s not an indictment of Indy football…especially in this thread which is dedicated to 6A.

Warren Central had what is considered a down year for their program by their standards…how many Fort Wayne area schools are you comfortably picking to beat the Warriors?

 

I'd take Fort Wayne South Side over most inner city Indy teams, maybe by a couple of touchdowns. South Side football isn't bad, it just looks bad because they play in the SAC.  

I'm pretty sure Carroll beats Warren Central. I have Snider and North Side even with the Warriors (this year). Indy is four times the size of Fort Wayne, so the list of schools competing with Warren Central is small. 

 

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3 minutes ago, BTF said:

I'd take Fort Wayne South Side over most inner city Indy teams, maybe by a couple of touchdowns. South Side football isn't bad, it just looks bad because they play in the SAC.  

I'm pretty sure Carroll beats Warren Central. I have Snider and North Side even with the Warriors (this year). Indy is four times the size of Fort Wayne, so the list of schools competing with Warren Central is small. 

 

What inner city Indy schools are you referring to?  Tech?  Shortridge?  Washington?  

Pike football isn’t bad…they just play in the MIC.

Noblesville, Avon and Franklin Central aren’t bad…they just play in the HCC.

See how this works?

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6 minutes ago, BTF said:

No, the arrogance isn't warranted. The large school divisions (6A and formerly 5A) have been ABSOLUTELY dominated by the 3 largest enrollment schools. Coincidence? Definitely no. Kudos to Center Grove for "debunking" that trend in recent years. Eric Moore is the real deal. 

 

Recent years?  State Finalist in 2000; State Champion in 2008.  Been to semi-state 13 of the last 15 years.  I'm not sure I would call Eric Moore and CG's body of work something recent.  

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26 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

The MIC has been ranked consistently over the past number of years as one of the top conferences in the country, and their success is the state tournament is well documented. Now the HHC has caught up. Outside of 6A, Indy schools such as Cathedral, Chatard, Roncalli, Lutheran and others have a history of success. Is this type of evidence arrogance? 
 

Enrollments?  CG is playing in their 4th straight state final as the #17th largest school. Last 2 years, they played Westfield in the state finals…18th largest school. Carroll is #20.  Tell me again about enrollment advantage. 
 

Feels like this thread has really been hijacked….any chance we can talk about Friday’s game??

Private schools in Indy have a metro area of 2 million to choose from. I don't think Indy Catholics are a good example. 

Center Grove. Good example. But one example isn't good enough in my opinion. You guys keep hitting us with Center Grove. You can't erase the fact that the three largest schools in Indiana have won most of the large division championships. 

Friday's game: Center Grove is Center Grove. It's hard to predict against them. I'll say Trojans by 14. 

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11 minutes ago, BTF said:

No, the arrogance isn't warranted. The large school divisions (6A and formerly 5A) have been ABSOLUTELY dominated by the 3 largest enrollment schools. Coincidence? Definitely no. Kudos to Center Grove for "debunking" that trend in recent years. Eric Moore is the real deal. 

For the most part, teams outside of the Indy area that are getting beaten by them are lower enrollment schools. 

Conclusion: The MIC contributed to what the HCC is today, and now the HCC is making them pay. "Competition breeds excellence." Indy suburban schools have either an enrollment advantage or an SES advantage over most of the schools they encounter outside of the Indy area. If I was forced to give an answer as to where the best football is played, I'd have to give Suburban Indy the edge. Good coaching + big enrollment + strong SES + strong competition = good luck to everyone else. 

Dude, come on.  It’s just like with the SEC in college football.  Love it or hate it but it is the standard which all other teams and conferences are held and rightfully so.

Indy is that metric at the highest levels of Indiana high school football.

Carroll has a chance to breakthrough that barrier this weekend.  
 

 

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2 minutes ago, temptation said:

What inner city Indy schools are you referring to?  Tech?  Shortridge?  Washington?  

Pike football isn’t bad…they just play in the MIC.

Noblesville, Avon and Franklin Central aren’t bad…they just play in the HCC.

See how this works?

I'm just saying football in inner city Indy is bad. I mean really bad. You have a point with Pike, I guess they are one mile inside the donut...........which is the area I cited. 

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1 hour ago, BTF said:

It's not pretend. Indy arrogance has been around quite awhile. It took years just to get anyone to acknowledge the enrollment advantage. 

I see arrogance from ALL corners of the State here on the GID. It's not limited to Indy.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

You cited it as THE reason Valpo would lose to Snider, cited about four coaches who mentioned it in the past, and dug your heels in even after the data proved you wrong.

In these two instances the burden of proof is on you, not me.  If you claim something you better have the stats and data to back it up.  What is so hard about that?

 

Never cited it as the main reason I thought Snider would win . See your doing it again . I said the game is In Fort Wayne plus Valpo has to travel 2 hrs , my prediction Snider by 28+ . On a neutral field , I would of picked Snider by 21+.

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2 minutes ago, BTF said:

I'm just saying football in inner city Indy is bad. I mean really bad. You have a point with Pike, I guess they are one mile inside the donut...........which is the area I cited. 

ONE IPS school plays at the 6A level:  Tech.

1 minute ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Never cited it as the main reason I thought Snider would win . See your doing it again . I said the game is In Fort Wayne plus Valpo has to travel 2 hrs , my prediction Snider by 28+ . On a neutral field , I would of picked Snider by 21+.

Potato/potatoe.

You just told on yourself but mixed the words up.

For as many victory laps as you are attempting to take for correctly picking Carroll to win, this prediction is flat out embarrassing and cancels it out.

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4 minutes ago, BTF said:

You can't erase the fact that the three largest schools in Indiana have won most of the large division championships. 

This is true, but they've often been squaring off against each other in the finals, and Carmel has gone through Penn almost every time it has been a "north" school. I don't think anyone is saying Carmel had an advantage because of their enrollment in those years. 

1 hour ago, temptation said:

I have spoken about the supposed enrollment advantage since the beginning of time…but CG sorta debunks that as the major contributing factor, no?

Enrollment is almost certainly a red herring among similarly large schools. 1000-1500 boys–or 500 hand-picked boys, sorry–should be enough to put a competitive 6A team on the field. Like traveling 2 hours in a chartered bus, there are more significant factors on the balance. CG, Carmel, and BD are all good examples where enrollment has not been of much value as a predictor.

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1 hour ago, temptation said:

You cited it as THE reason Valpo would lose to Snider, cited about four coaches who mentioned it in the past, and dug your heels in even after the data proved you wrong.

In these two instances the burden of proof is on you, not me.  If you claim something you better have the stats and data to back it up.  What is so hard about that?

 

You never proved crap about by statement READ IT AGAIN . I said , and I quote GOING BACK 40 years . You provided data for 20 years . So how was I proved wrong ?????? Because in that little mind of yours , you always have to be right . 

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44 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

You never proved crap about by statement READ IT AGAIN . I said , and I quote GOING BACK 40 years . You provided data for 20 years . So how was I proved wrong ?????? Because in that little mind of yours , you always have to be right . 

Oh my it's been 45 minutes and no response from our resident Statistician. He must be hard at work digging up data . 

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1 hour ago, Bash Riprock said:

Recent years?  State Finalist in 2000; State Champion in 2008.  Been to semi-state 13 of the last 15 years.  I'm not sure I would call Eric Moore and CG's body of work something recent.  

Again, one example. Center Grove. Eric Moore could accomplish the same thing at any school in the state that is similar in size or SES. Geography doesn't matter in this case. 

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