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2A: Andrean vs Mater Dei


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35 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

Gibson Southern should be thankful that the success factor did it's job and cleared out all those highly advantaged P/P schools from 3A last year.

If this is supposed to bother me it doesn't.  I suppose the SF did clear out an old 3A opponent, they wouldn't have been an issue last year but would have been a tough out.  We should never compete with them based on effective enrollment (aside from a once in a decade team), if we are competing with them, they are doing something wrong...and they don't.  Most years in terms of quality DNA on our football team, MD and GS will run much closer in the numbers of those type of kids than GS than ERM.  Which, based on the paradigm, is how it does, should and will always work.  Those who pretend it doesn't are lying to themselves and others.

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1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

Grown men who know the truth will continue to lobby for P&Ps to stay in their enrollment class and claim it is "fair"....every year I just can't wrap my head around that.

The "truth" is typically what the individual wants it to be or perceives it to be.  That does not make it the truth, it makes it their opinion based on their experiences and beliefs.  While I respect someone's right to have their own opinion, how strongly that opinion is held does not make it the "truth" nor make it "fact".  It is still an opinion.  

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10 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

If this is supposed to bother me it doesn't.  I suppose the SF did clear out an old 3A opponent, they wouldn't have been an issue last year but would have been a tough out.  We should never compete with them based on effective enrollment (aside from a once in a decade team), if we are competing with them, they are doing something wrong...and they don't.  Most years in terms of quality DNA on our football team, MD and GS will run much closer in the numbers of those type of kids than GS than ERM.  Which, based on the paradigm, is how it does, should and will always work.  Those who pretend it doesn't are lying to themselves and others.

A look at the numbers in 2A this year (feel free to correct me if these are inaccurate,) 62 teams and by my quick count 8 P/P schools. 6 of those P/P schools advanced to the sectional title game, 4 of them won a sectional, 3 of them won a regional, and obviously 2 of them are playing for the title. So 13% of the schools won 50% of the sectionals, 75% of the regionals, and 100% of the Semi-states.

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2 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

The "truth" is typically what the individual wants it to be or perceives it to be.  That does not make it the truth, it makes it their opinion based on their experiences and beliefs.  While I respect someone's right to have their own opinion, how strongly that opinion is held does not make it the "truth" nor make it "fact".  It is still an opinion.  

And this kids is what is wrong with the world today.  My truth, your truth (how about our chakra?)....good lord.  Facts are facts.  The fact is, based on provable, irrefutable, empirical evidence is that P&Ps have a totally different student base that is grossly more homogenous, and this in itself is HUGE.

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3 minutes ago, Cappy said:

A look at the numbers in 2A this year (feel free to correct me if these are inaccurate,) 62 teams and by my quick count 8 P/P schools. 6 of those P/P schools advanced to the sectional title game, 4 of them won a sectional, 3 of them won a regional, and obviously 2 of them are playing for the title. So 13% of the schools won 50% of the sectionals, 75% of the regionals, and 100% of the Semi-states.

The private schools just worked harder and wanted it more

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20 minutes ago, Cappy said:

A look at the numbers in 2A this year (feel free to correct me if these are inaccurate,) 62 teams and by my quick count 8 P/P schools. 6 of those P/P schools advanced to the sectional title game, 4 of them won a sectional, 3 of them won a regional, and obviously 2 of them are playing for the title. So 13% of the schools won 50% of the sectionals, 75% of the regionals, and 100% of the Semi-states.

Please explain how MD kids are different than NP kids.

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27 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

Please explain how MD kids are different than NP kids.

You honestly think that there are even close to the same number of quality success driven student athletes between MD and NP....you really wanna say that?  You have to realize that when someone pays for a service it because they are looking for specific outcomes, and when someone only attends an institution because the law says they have they are typically a completely different kind of student.....this completely skews "enrollment" and why an "enrollment" only classification system can never work, particularly if you are allowing publics and privates in the same tournament.  Enrollment only might work if you only had publics in the system or only had privates in the system because then the effective enrollments are like for like.  The two ways of doing school are so distinctively different with regard to student population type, enrollment alone just won't work and doesn't and hasn't.  Unless as a private parent you feel entitled that your enrollment fees should also purchase you an unfair advantage in the tournament.

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13 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

You honestly think that there are even close to the same number of quality success driven student athletes between MD and NP....you really wanna say that?  You have to realize that when someone pays for a service it because they are looking for specific outcomes, and when someone only attends an institution because the law says they have they are typically a completely different kind of student.....this completely skews "enrollment" and why an "enrollment" only classification system can never work, particularly if you are allowing publics and privates in the same tournament.  Enrollment only might work if you only had publics in the system or only had privates in the system because then the effective enrollments are like for like.  The two ways of doing school are so distinctively different with regard to student population type, enrollment alone just won't work and doesn't and hasn't.  Unless as a private parent you feel entitled that your enrollment fees should also purchase you an unfair advantage in the tournament.

So by your argument, private school students work harder therefore achieving higher levels of success?

No dog in the fight here, just pointing out your argument just ate its own tail.

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8 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

You honestly think that there are even close to the same number of quality success driven student athletes between MD and NP....you really wanna say that?  You have to realize that when someone pays for a service it because they are looking for specific outcomes, and when someone only attends an institution because the law says they have they are typically a completely different kind of student.....this completely skews "enrollment" and why an "enrollment" only classification system can never work, particularly if you are allowing publics and privates in the same tournament.  Enrollment only might work if you only had publics in the system or only had privates in the system because then the effective enrollments are like for like.  The two ways of doing school are so distinctively different with regard to student population type, enrollment alone just won't work and doesn't and hasn't.  Unless as a private parent you feel entitled that your enrollment fees should also purchase you an unfair advantage in the tournament.

Why don't these same advantages show up in other sports?  NP routinely beats MD in basketball and baseball.  Or are there only "advantages" in football?  I use NP as an example because they have similar enrollments and very similar kids.  they have kids in their hallways right now that  went to westside catholic feeder schools and are now at NP.  In some cases there are siblings at each school.  With all these advantages, wouldn't the parents opt for MD?  I realize that MD has a different enrollment from some other 2A schools.  But the teams they have beaten to win sectional, regional and semi state are not significantly different. 

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7 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

Why don't these same advantages show up in other sports?  NP routinely beats MD in basketball and baseball.  Or are there only "advantages" in football?  I use NP as an example because they have similar enrollments and very similar kids.  they have kids in their hallways right now that  went to westside catholic feeder schools and are now at NP.  In some cases there are siblings at each school.  With all these advantages, wouldn't the parents opt for MD?  I realize that MD has a different enrollment from some other 2A schools.  But the teams they have beaten to win sectional, regional and semi state are not significantly different. 

What year did these advantages start?  LCC didn't win anything in football from 1977-1998.  They had one good team during that time.  I never heard anyone say anything about advantages in the 1970's and 1980's.  

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1 minute ago, fartfry18 said:

So by your argument, private school students work harder therefore achieving higher levels of success?

No dog in the fight here, just pointing out your argument just ate its own tail.

No it didn't.  This is a common misdirection pulled by P&P apologists. A certain type of parent with certain types of kids enroll at the private (and they probably do have a good work ethic).  Does NP have some of those same types of parents and kids....of course they do.  The problem that will never go away is the much larger percentage of kids at the public who are not interested in a high level of academic or extracurricular success.  Given, publics like NP and GS will have a smaller chunk of "dead weight" than most publics but even with that, GS will never ever approach the level of ERM and NP will never ever approach the level of MD with regard to quality success driven student athletes, NEVER.  Not one year, not one time, NEVER.  The institutions are catastrophically dissimilar in student population type.  It's interesting how paying for a service drives expectations.

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6 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

No it didn't.  This is a common misdirection pulled by P&P apologists. A certain type of parent with certain types of kids enroll at the private (and they probably do have a good work ethic).  Does NP have some of those same types of parents and kids....of course they do.  The problem that will never go away is the much larger percentage of kids at the public who are not interested in a high level of academic or extracurricular success.  Given, publics like NP and GS will have a smaller chunk of "dead weight" than most publics but even with that, GS will never ever approach the level of ERM and NP will never ever approach the level of MD with regard to quality success driven student athletes, NEVER.  Not one year, not one time, NEVER.  The institutions are catastrophically dissimilar in student population type.  It's interesting how paying for a service drives expectations.

Okay

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1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

And this kids is what is wrong with the world today.  My truth, your truth (how about our chakra?)....good lord.  Facts are facts.  The fact is, based on provable, irrefutable, empirical evidence is that P&Ps have a totally different student base that is grossly more homogenous, and this in itself is HUGE.

So we can establish a baseline for an "Apples to Apples" comparison and an informed discussion, this is what "empirical evidence" means.  Please reference the sources for your "provable, irrefutable, empirical evidence".  

Empirical evidence is the information obtained through observation and documentation of certain behavior and patterns or through an experiment. Empirical evidence is a quintessential part of the scientific method of research that is applicable in many disciplines.

 

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4 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

So we can establish a baseline for an "Apples to Apples" comparison and an informed discussion, this is what "empirical evidence" means.  Please reference the sources for your "provable, irrefutable, empirical evidence".  

Empirical evidence is the information obtained through observation and documentation of certain behavior and patterns or through an experiment. Empirical evidence is a quintessential part of the scientific method of research that is applicable in many disciplines.

 

Well done with Google!  Did your parents also pay for a private education?  It's simple really....does MD have numbers we can observe regarding kids how participate in extracurriculars, go on to post secondary programs, GPA, etc.?

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1 hour ago, Wildcat1992 said:

Please explain how MD kids are different than NP kids.

I would say that roughly 50% of NP kids are very similar to 90-95% of the MD kids. The biggest difference between these kids (the roughly 215 NP kids that have similar home life as the 450 MD kids) is expectations at home. MD families are paying for an education and athletic experience, they are more involved with their kids school and extracurriculars. These numbers seem to translate to roster size as well. NP has 40 kids playing football, MD has 80ish (way more last year.)

21 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

Why don't these same advantages show up in other sports?  NP routinely beats MD in basketball and baseball.  Or are there only "advantages" in football?  I use NP as an example because they have similar enrollments and very similar kids.  they have kids in their hallways right now that  went to westside catholic feeder schools and are now at NP.  In some cases there are siblings at each school.  With all these advantages, wouldn't the parents opt for MD?  I realize that MD has a different enrollment from some other 2A schools.  But the teams they have beaten to win sectional, regional and semi state are not significantly different. 

Routinely? I got tired of looking but going back to the early 2000's NP has won 5 out of the last 27 or so games in boys basketball vs MD. So NP wins 16% of the time in the last 20 years, for reference against Evansville North (1600 students) same time period NP has won 5 out 17 games (about 30%.) I can't tell you about baseball those stats aren't as easy for me to find but we have had some really good baseball teams including back to back state titles so I imagine that is pretty close. As far as siblings at both schools, not always but usually the family will send the better athlete to MD and the rest to NP. Again its about expectations, freshmen receiver at MD is supposed to be the star while junior sister and 8th grade brother at NP are pushed in a different direction. 

 

To be clear I didn't say anything good or bad about MD, I presented the facts of this years 2A tournament. Good luck to the Wildcats

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24 minutes ago, Tippy said:

What year did these advantages start?  LCC didn't win anything in football from 1977-1998.  They had one good team during that time.  I never heard anyone say anything about advantages in the 1970's and 1980's.  

LCC was 91-133 over that time.  7 winning seasons, 14 losing seasons, and one tied season ... one sectional title in 1989. 

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6 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

Well done with Google!  Did your parents also pay for a private education?  It's simple really....does MD have numbers we can observe regarding kids how participate in extracurriculars, go on to post secondary programs, GPA, etc.?

Nice attempt at deflection.  You don't actually have any "proof" so you try bait & switch.  Again, I respect your "opinion" but do not accept it as "fact" or "truth" simply because you fervently believe it.  fwiw, here is another Google snippet for you paid for with my private education dollars....it might help you resolve some of your confusion over truth vs fact.  

 

Too many people believe truth and fact are the same thing. If something is true, it must also be a fact, right? Wrong.

A fact is something that’s indisputable, based on empirical research and quantifiable measures. Facts go beyond theories. They’re proven through calculation and experience, or they’re something that definitively occurred in the past.

Truth is entirely different; it may include fact, but it can also include belief. Oftentimes, people will accept things as true because they fall closer to their comfort zones, are assimilated easily into their comfort zones, or reflect their preconceived notions of reality.

Fact is indisputable. Truth is acceptable.

 

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10 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

Nice attempt at deflection.  You don't actually have any "proof" so you try bait & switch.  Again, I respect your "opinion" but do not accept it as "fact" or "truth" simply because you fervently believe it.  fwiw, here is another Google snippet for you paid for with my private education dollars....it might help you resolve some of your confusion over truth vs fact.  

 

Too many people believe truth and fact are the same thing. If something is true, it must also be a fact, right? Wrong.

A fact is something that’s indisputable, based on empirical research and quantifiable measures. Facts go beyond theories. They’re proven through calculation and experience, or they’re something that definitively occurred in the past.

Truth is entirely different; it may include fact, but it can also include belief. Oftentimes, people will accept things as true because they fall closer to their comfort zones, are assimilated easily into their comfort zones, or reflect their preconceived notions of reality.

Fact is indisputable. Truth is acceptable.

 

Then what you have must be called denial.

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17 minutes ago, Cappy said:

I would say that roughly 50% of NP kids are very similar to 90-95% of the MD kids. The biggest difference between these kids (the roughly 215 NP kids that have similar home life as the 450 MD kids) is expectations at home. MD families are paying for an religious  education and athletic experience, they are more involved with their kids school and extracurriculars. These numbers seem to translate to roster size as well. NP has 40 kids playing football, MD has 80ish (way more last year.)

Routinely? I got tired of looking but going back to the early 2000's NP has won 5 out of the last 27 or so games in boys basketball vs MD. So NP wins 16% of the time in the last 20 years, for reference against Evansville North (1600 students) same time period NP has won 5 out 17 games (about 30%.) I can't tell you about baseball those stats aren't as easy for me to find but we have had some really good baseball teams including back to back state titles so I imagine that is pretty close. As far as siblings at both schools, not always but usually the family will send the better athlete to MD and the rest to NP. Again its about expectations, freshmen receiver at MD is supposed to be the star while junior sister and 8th grade brother at NP are pushed in a different direction. 

 

To be clear I didn't say anything good or bad about MD, I presented the facts of this years 2A tournament. Good luck to the Wildcats

MD families pay for religious education.  They are not paying for an athletic experience.  They could all send their kids to reitz for free and have a similar athletic experience.  It's the same families generation after generation.  It's not like MD has a ton of transfers every year that keeps them competitive.  

As far as the family things goes, you are incorrect about families sending their better athletes to MD and the other siblings to NP.  There have been several MD students transfer to NP after starting at MD.  there are also times where an 8th grader looks and assumes they won't be as successful (i.e. playing time) at MD and goes somewhere else.  I don't think it has anything to do with a parent consciously picking the better athlete in the family and send them to MD.  That's a ridiculous assertion IMO.

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1 minute ago, oldtimeqb said:

Dawson Wunderlich and Mason Wunderlich are two completely different kids. Not sure what you are talking about. 😀

As are Nolan and Carter Schickel. In a few years Nolan (freshmen at MD) could be a starting WR/DB and his brother Carter (8th grade) could be a starting QB/DB at NP.

 

28 minutes ago, Wildcat1992 said:

D families pay for religious education.  They are not paying for an athletic experience.  They could all send their kids to reitz for free and have a similar athletic experience.  It's the same families generation after generation.  It's not like MD has a ton of transfers every year that keeps them competitive.  

As far as the family things goes, you are incorrect about families sending their better athletes to MD and the other siblings to NP.  There have been several MD students transfer to NP after starting at MD.  there are also times where an 8th grader looks and assumes they won't be as successful (i.e. playing time) at MD and goes somewhere else.  I don't think it has anything to do with a parent consciously picking the better athlete in the family and send them to MD.  That's a ridiculous assertion IMO.

I didn't want in this conversation just presented numbers about the 2A tourney and the success of the P/P schools, I'm just going to say we do not see things the same way and that is ok. I don't feel sorry for Pike Central when we beat them almost every year and I don't expect MD to feel sorry for us. I don't see the IHSAA changing anything anytime soon so our 40 - 50 football players will have to learn to outwork the 80 - 100 football players at MD. Same for our 6-8 coaches will have to outwork the 20 or so coaches at MD.

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4 minutes ago, Cappy said:

As are Nolan and Carter Schickel. In a few years Nolan (freshmen at MD) could be a starting WR/DB and his brother Carter (8th grade) could be a starting QB/DB at NP.

 

I didn't want in this conversation just presented numbers about the 2A tourney and the success of the P/P schools, I'm just going to say we do not see things the same way and that is ok. I don't feel sorry for Pike Central when we beat them almost every year and I don't expect MD to feel sorry for us. I don't see the IHSAA changing anything anytime soon so our 40 - 50 football players will have to learn to outwork the 80 - 100 football players at MD. Same for our 6-8 coaches will have to outwork the 20 or so coaches at MD.

Unless you are including freshmen, I don't believe MD has ever had "80 - 100" players on the varsity team, even back in the initial years of real success back in the late 1990s & early 2000s when the roster was truly huge because every kid wanted to be on the team.  Typical is 60 - 70, not including frosh - still very good numbers but hardly "80 -100" cited.  Here are roster numbers for last 5 years from Max Preps. 

Now, they could fill a Hadi Shrine clown car on Thanksgiving with all their coaches, there is no disputing that!🤡image.png.7ce85bd3e8192e6221d28978463c06d4.png

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