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Should Sectionals be Gerrymanderd?


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2 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Nice!  How bout goin one step further? Keep Sec n Seed the top 4 in different regions n let the SF do its thing 🤔 

This is an actual plan being discussed in other sports. Football is it’s own animal, and admittedly not as intimately familiar with the Football tournament as I am other sports. I haven’t really given much thought to applying it to a Football tournament. 

2 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

This harkens back to the old "pod" system in the 80's.  Unfortunately, under this system, there were many occasions "deserving" teams did not even get in the playoffs. 

Easy to see a team like FW Luers NOT make it due to their season record yet still be one of the better teams for their class/region.  Now, to deal with these situations, you have to create a review committee and a set of rules to govern these kinds of scenarios which makes it subject to human bias...which was the genesis for the "all teams get in" movement in the first place.  

 I didn’t say anything about a qualifier, all in. 

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13 hours ago, Donnie Baker said:

When there were 3 classes Lawrenceburg was 1A. So was HSE and Westfield. Carmel had 2,000 students. Times change. State Law 

Yeah... so do a Rodney solution ... put the megas in their own super class ...n split the rest into 3 classes... bingo! The PPs are buried again.... 

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15 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Yeah... so do a Rodney solution ... put the megas in their own super class ...n split the rest into 3 classes... bingo! The PPs are buried again.... 

woah woah woah if were gonna do a 'Rodney' solution lets get this done right 

 

what were gonna do to merge into three classes is simple

 

were going to combine 1a and 6a

were going to combine 2a and 5a

were going to combine 3a and 4a

 

the winner of the 3a and 4a tournament is gonna play the winner of the 2a and 5a tournament

then the winner of that game is gonna play the winner of the 1a and 6a tournament

then the winner of that game is going to play the loser of the  3a4a v 2a5a (only if the winner is the 1a6a), now if the loser of the 3a4a v 2a5a wins this game

they play again for the state championship.

 

mind you this is all happening in one day

 

so we got 7 whole games (potentially, more than likely only 5 or 6) on a Saturday at LOS 

 

were also going to be implementing some rule changes for competitive integrity

 

quarters are going up to 25 minutes

all punts are live

no pass interference unless the receiver is on the ground while the ball is in the air

no holding penalties

no roughing the passer penalties

no roughing the kicker penalties

no targeting penalties

facemasks are allowed other than when tackling

no  endzone touchbacks (ball has to completely leave the back or side of the endzone for a touchback)

and not that I think the State championship games would have this, but under no circumstances is a Mercy Rule ever to be implemented.

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21 minutes ago, Rodney said:

woah woah woah if were gonna do a 'Rodney' solution lets get this done right 

 

what were gonna do to merge into three classes is simple

 

were going to combine 1a and 6a

were going to combine 2a and 5a

were going to combine 3a and 4a

 

the winner of the 3a and 4a tournament is gonna play the winner of the 2a and 5a tournament

then the winner of that game is gonna play the winner of the 1a and 6a tournament

then the winner of that game is going to play the loser of the  3a4a v 2a5a (only if the winner is the 1a6a), now if the loser of the 3a4a v 2a5a wins this game

they play again for the state championship.

 

mind you this is all happening in one day

 

so we got 7 whole games (potentially, more than likely only 5 or 6) on a Saturday at LOS 

 

were also going to be implementing some rule changes for competitive integrity

 

quarters are going up to 25 minutes

all punts are live

no pass interference unless the receiver is on the ground while the ball is in the air

no holding penalties

no roughing the passer penalties

no roughing the kicker penalties

no targeting penalties

facemasks are allowed other than when tackling

no  endzone touchbacks (ball has to completely leave the back or side of the endzone for a touchback)

and not that I think the State championship games would have this, but under no circumstances is a Mercy Rule ever to be implemented.

Someone should put this on stone tablets.

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15 hours ago, foxbat said:

Kind of depends on the year and class. 

The first year LCC was in 2A, they we about 30 seconds short of winning a sectional and likely going to LOS in 2A.  The second year, they were within a field goal of taking RCHS's place at LOS ... and RCHS took a 45-21 blue ring over Mater Dei that year.  The next year, 2015, LCC dropped down to 1A and picked up a blue ring going undefeated through 1A and the Hoosier Conference.  In 2016, they fell by a missed extra point to state-runner up Pioneer.  The next year, in 1A, they were handled by Pioneer 48-20 and didn't get out of 1A sectional.  The next season, 2018, they were completely mauled by Pioneer 70-7, at home, and again didn't make it out of the sectional.  2019 saw three losses to three 3A schools, but a thrilling 1A blue ring in a 29-28 come-from-behind-win against Lutheran.  2020 saw a complete drubbing at the hands of South Adams in 1A 42-9 who ended up getting a red ring at LOS that year after losing a 41-40 decision.  SF bumped LCC to 2A in 2021 where they secured a sectional before being bounced by old 1A foe Scecina 34-13 and ending with an 8-5 record.  This year, they picked up another 2A sectional before succumbing to Andrean 30-12 and ending the season at 9-4.  In the five seasons before LCC ended up in 2A for a second time, they faced three different 1A for their last game of the season.  In they won one of those file games and that was by one point.  They lost one by one point.  And lost the other three games, to a pair of public schools, by an average differential of over 40 points.

Again, kind of depends on the class and season.  In 2009 there was conjecture that LCC could have taken 3A.  In 2017 and 2018, they couldn't get out of sectionals in 1A.  In 2020 they kind of limped into semis and came out on crutches.  LCC will stay in 2A with its two sectionals and will play wherever the IHSAA sends them, but I think they are likely to probably end up seeing the bare minimum to stay in 2A for a few seasons to come with maybe a regional thrown in.  It will likely be a while before there's talk of LCC at the top of 2A like the potential that was there in 2013 and 2014.  Incidentally, Calpreps says this year LCC would be a 21-point underdog to AC, a 1-point underdog to North Decatur, a 1-point underdog to NJSP, and 25-point underdog to Lutheran.

1A is a different animal... the low numbers make it extremely difficult for any one program to dominate indefinitely.... tho ther was no problem when Sheridan did it.....

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18 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

1A is a different animal... the low numbers make it extremely difficult for any one program to dominate indefinitely.... tho ther was no problem when Sheridan did it.....

Noticed that too?

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To be somewhat clear on this whole thread, I essentially ACCUSED the IHSAA of Gerrymandering in another thread to put all the P&Ps in the same sectional(s) whenever they possibly can.  My point was if they didn’t intentionally do this then the Success Factored teams might actually stay “up”.  Certainly the case with Chatard/Roncalli.

Having Chatard go North in 4A and Roncalli stay South would arguably be the “non-Gerrymandered” (I am straining the King’s English to a breaking point here) result that would actually result in what most want (likely including Chatard) - Chatard to no longer be in 3A.

My opinion has long been that the IHSAA had less of a problem in football with P&P’s overall than it had a specific problem with Chatard in 3A and Cathedral in any class excepting 6A.  Certainly the same could also be said of LCC in 1A.

Well…they solved their Cathedral “problem”…..at least for the time being….even artificially shortening the “bump-up” timetable to do so.  They put LCC on a Sectional island…solving that problem.

The Chatard 3A problem only required them to keep Chatard and Roncalli (and probably Chatard/New Pal these days) in separate sectionals.  It’s a very easy fix and, frankly, just the opposite of Gerrymandering.

But the IHSAA does so love artificially eliminating P&P’s in Sectionals whenever possible that they continually lose sight of the Success Factor “big picture”.

So, I would argue that the remaining P&P problem is an actual result of the IHSAA’s historic Gerrymandering.

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6 minutes ago, Lysander said:

To be somewhat clear on this whole thread, I essentially ACCUSED the IHSAA of Gerrymandering in another thread to put all the P&Ps in the same sectional(s) whenever they possibly can.  My point was if they didn’t intentionally do this then the Success Factored teams might actually stay “up”.  Certainly the case with Chatard/Roncalli.

Having Chatard go North in 4A and Roncalli stay South would arguably be the “non-Gerrymandered” (I am straining the King’s English to a breaking point here) result that would actually result in what most want (likely including Chatard) - Chatard to no longer be in 3A.

My opinion has long been that the IHSAA had less of a problem in football with P&P’s overall than it had a specific problem with Chatard in 3A and Cathedral in any class excepting 6A.  Certainly the same could also be said of LCC in 1A.

Well…they solved their Cathedral “problem”…..at least for the time being….even artificially shortening the “bump-up” timetable to do so.  They put LCC on a Sectional island…solving that problem.

The Chatard 3A problem only required them to keep Chatard and Roncalli (and probably Chatard/New Pal these days) in separate sectionals.  It’s a very easy fix and, frankly, just the opposite of Gerrymandering.

But the IHSAA does so love artificially eliminating P&P’s in Sectionals whenever possible that they continually lose sight of the Success Factor “big picture”.

So, I would argue that the remaining P&P problem is an actual result of the IHSAA’s historic Gerrymandering.

Sectional of Death with Brebeuf, Guerin, and Chatard ... and, until recently, honorary Catholic public school, West Lafayette.

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40 minutes ago, Lysander said:

To be somewhat clear on this whole thread, I essentially ACCUSED the IHSAA of Gerrymandering in another thread to put all the P&Ps in the same sectional(s) whenever they possibly can.  My point was if they didn’t intentionally do this then the Success Factored teams might actually stay “up”.  Certainly the case with Chatard/Roncalli.

Having Chatard go North in 4A and Roncalli stay South would arguably be the “non-Gerrymandered” (I am straining the King’s English to a breaking point here) result that would actually result in what most want (likely including Chatard) - Chatard to no longer be in 3A.

My opinion has long been that the IHSAA had less of a problem in football with P&P’s overall than it had a specific problem with Chatard in 3A and Cathedral in any class excepting 6A.  Certainly the same could also be said of LCC in 1A.

Well…they solved their Cathedral “problem”…..at least for the time being….even artificially shortening the “bump-up” timetable to do so.  They put LCC on a Sectional island…solving that problem.

The Chatard 3A problem only required them to keep Chatard and Roncalli (and probably Chatard/New Pal these days) in separate sectionals.  It’s a very easy fix and, frankly, just the opposite of Gerrymandering.

But the IHSAA does so love artificially eliminating P&P’s in Sectionals whenever possible that they continually lose sight of the Success Factor “big picture”.

So, I would argue that the remaining P&P problem is an actual result of the IHSAA’s historic Gerrymandering.

That.... is Unacceptable to Some...... for Some reason....

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3 hours ago, Lysander said:

To be somewhat clear on this whole thread, I essentially ACCUSED the IHSAA of Gerrymandering in another thread to put all the P&Ps in the same sectional(s) whenever they possibly can.  My point was if they didn’t intentionally do this then the Success Factored teams might actually stay “up”.  Certainly the case with Chatard/Roncalli.

Having Chatard go North in 4A and Roncalli stay South would arguably be the “non-Gerrymandered” (I am straining the King’s English to a breaking point here) result that would actually result in what most want (likely including Chatard) - Chatard to no longer be in 3A.

My opinion has long been that the IHSAA had less of a problem in football with P&P’s overall than it had a specific problem with Chatard in 3A and Cathedral in any class excepting 6A.  Certainly the same could also be said of LCC in 1A.

Well…they solved their Cathedral “problem”…..at least for the time being….even artificially shortening the “bump-up” timetable to do so.  They put LCC on a Sectional island…solving that problem.

The Chatard 3A problem only required them to keep Chatard and Roncalli (and probably Chatard/New Pal these days) in separate sectionals.  It’s a very easy fix and, frankly, just the opposite of Gerrymandering.

But the IHSAA does so love artificially eliminating P&P’s in Sectionals whenever possible that they continually lose sight of the Success Factor “big picture”.

So, I would argue that the remaining P&P problem is an actual result of the IHSAA’s historic Gerrymandering.

Appreciate the insight into the story behind the question.  I understand your position much better now and, I actually agree with it.  Thanks.

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4 hours ago, foxbat said:

Sectional of Death with Brebeuf, Guerin, and Chatard ... and, until recently, honorary Catholic public school, West Lafayette.

HHeights musta really pissed someone off.... they got life... while WL.... was for Some reason... let out on good behavior for their crimes.....

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Splitting up the sectionals isn't working for moving privates either. If you look at 2A, not a single private was in the same sectional to my knowledge(one sectional might actually have one but for the most part they are pretty split up). It seems to me like all of those privates are just getting bottled up in 2A because they are winning their sectional, and then beating each other in the regional causing them to stay in 2A rather than move up or down. The place to be right now is 1A. After next year your going to have 2 private schools left in the reclassification, Park Tudor in the North possibly and Covenant Christian in the South more than likely(who knows how the IHSAA will form Sectionals). 

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14 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Splitting up the sectionals isn't working for moving privates either. If you look at 2A, not a single private was in the same sectional to my knowledge(one sectional might actually have one but for the most part they are pretty split up). It seems to me like all of those privates are just getting bottled up in 2A because they are winning their sectional, and then beating each other in the regional causing them to stay in 2A rather than move up or down. The place to be right now is 1A. After next year your going to have 2 private schools left in the reclassification, Park Tudor in the North possibly and Covenant Christian in the South more than likely(who knows how the IHSAA will form Sectionals). 

Knowing the IHSAA they'll probably be in Sectional 28.

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41 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Splitting up the sectionals isn't working for moving privates either. If you look at 2A, not a single private was in the same sectional to my knowledge(one sectional might actually have one but for the most part they are pretty split up). It seems to me like all of those privates are just getting bottled up in 2A because they are winning their sectional, and then beating each other in the regional causing them to stay in 2A rather than move up or down. The place to be right now is 1A. After next year your going to have 2 private schools left in the reclassification, Park Tudor in the North possibly and Covenant Christian in the South more than likely(who knows how the IHSAA will form Sectionals). 

I'd pupose it's less a "problem" than u think.... 2A "Catholic  programs" r LCC, Scecina, Andrean, MD, Luers, am i forgetting someone?  Of those, Luers is the so called "problem" Luers is on the cusp of 3A enrollment... MD has bounced up n down on enrollment... if ur a high enrollment school public or catholic/private, w a program, ur odds of winning a Title r enhanced. Enrollment alone may move up Luers and MD....  Andrean could SF up. Sooo next cycle u could very well c a very Diff 2A.... Triton Cen took care of the Scecina "problem" n LCCs low numbers will keep them in check along w Luth..... 3A becomes as u say "loaded" but who ther would b a "problem" Luers, Mish Marion, St Joe, Andrean, MD? vrs the likes of HHills, GS, WL, WB, Southridge, Lawrenceburg, others that slip my mind.... letting the SF and enrollment do its job to reach n equilibium would b preferable than as Lysander said Artificially keeping Chatard in 3A by Gerrymandering them into a Sec of Death... which I've witnessed them doing since day 1 .... Why is that?  Hmmmm.......

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On 11/21/2022 at 12:34 PM, Lysander said:

To be somewhat clear on this whole thread, I essentially ACCUSED the IHSAA of Gerrymandering in another thread to put all the P&Ps in the same sectional(s) whenever they possibly can.  My point was if they didn’t intentionally do this then the Success Factored teams might actually stay “up”.  Certainly the case with Chatard/Roncalli.

Having Chatard go North in 4A and Roncalli stay South would arguably be the “non-Gerrymandered” (I am straining the King’s English to a breaking point here) result that would actually result in what most want (likely including Chatard) - Chatard to no longer be in 3A.

My opinion has long been that the IHSAA had less of a problem in football with P&P’s overall than it had a specific problem with Chatard in 3A and Cathedral in any class excepting 6A.  Certainly the same could also be said of LCC in 1A.

Well…they solved their Cathedral “problem”…..at least for the time being….even artificially shortening the “bump-up” timetable to do so.  They put LCC on a Sectional island…solving that problem.

The Chatard 3A problem only required them to keep Chatard and Roncalli (and probably Chatard/New Pal these days) in separate sectionals.  It’s a very easy fix and, frankly, just the opposite of Gerrymandering.

But the IHSAA does so love artificially eliminating P&P’s in Sectionals whenever possible that they continually lose sight of the Success Factor “big picture”.

So, I would argue that the remaining P&P problem is an actual result of the IHSAA’s historic Gerrymandering.

Never really noticed this but it’s true.  If Chatard goes to a 4A sectional without Roncalli the likelihood of them winning and staying up would increase.  In the end, you never know what the IHSAA will do.  I can assure you they are hell bent against seeding the sectionals.

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On 11/21/2022 at 11:34 AM, Lysander said:

But the IHSAA does so love artificially eliminating P&P’s in Sectionals whenever possible that they continually lose sight of the Success Factor “big picture”.

So, I would argue that the remaining P&P problem is an actual result of the IHSAA’s historic Gerrymandering.

The “Law of Unintended Consequences” strikes again!

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They don't even need to seed... instead of starting wherever they start...( in a corner of the Srate? ) Who says it has to be a corner? JUS Start in the middel by drawing a line between Roncoli n Chartard n work ur way outwards.... Done... Simple... Easy peasy... 

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2 hours ago, superjay said:

Never really noticed this but it’s true.  If Chatard goes to a 4A sectional without Roncalli the likelihood of them winning and staying up would increase.  In the end, you never know what the IHSAA will do.  I can assure you they are hell bent against seeding the sectionals.

Yes... we do know....  Exactly what they'll do... it's Systemic 

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17 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

They don't even need to seed... instead of starting wherever they start...( in a corner of the Srate? ) Who says it has to be a corner? JUS Start in the middel by drawing a line between Roncoli n Chartard n work ur way outwards.... Done... Simple... Easy peasy... 

They supposedly rotate the sectional alignments by starting in the NE, SE, NW, NE, and Central in different years. I believe this is how it was justified having Roncalli, Chatard, and Brebeuf? in one of the early alignments.

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