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1 minute ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Put all small P/P schools in 3A and all 3A+ P/P schools in 5A. Then use the SF from there.

I don't support that, but I think it would solve most of the complaining.

Also, I've long supported the 1A/6A ~32 teams (probably less), then evenly distributing 2A-5A (5A wouldn't be a 32-team class). But take it a step further and go to only four classes -- 2A and 3A would need an extra week of tournament games.

Start with top 32 enrollment teams in 6A and bottom 32 enrollment teams in 1A. Those classes are now set.

Bump the remaining top 32 enrollment teams in classes 1A-4A up a class and you have your new classifications. No clue what the official breakdown per class would be but you get the picture. 2A-5A would all roughly have ~64 teams. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Brag? I'm stating facts. 4A enrollment schools have dominated 5A. There's literally no argument to be made otherwise. Cathedral has the same boundaries as every other public school in Central Indiana. How many times and from how many posters do you need to be told that open enrollment absolutely kills any argument to the contrary? 

Cathedral has plenty of advantages over their 4A and 5A counterparts and none of them have to do with "zero boundaries". And by the way, they're still technically a 4A enrollment school. When the IHSAA 

Which explains why the rest of the state can't catch up. Not only does Central Indiana have the largest enrollment schools, now you're telling me that they have no boundaries whatsoever? Fort Wayne has open enrollment, but there is a limit and it's supposed to academically motivated. Does it get abused? Sure. But the difference here is that there is a "limit." 

You keep mentioning 4A enrollment schools dominating 5A. Since the inception of of 6A, only two 4A enrollment schools have won the 5A tournament. During that same time span, four 5A enrollment schools have won the title. There have been 20 participants in the 5A title game, only seven of which were 4A enrollment schools. And we keep talking about the same two schools here in Cathedral and New Pal. I would hardly call that 4A dominance over 5A as a whole. 

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4 minutes ago, BTF said:

Which explains why the rest of the state can't catch up. Not only does Central Indiana have the largest enrollment schools, now you're telling me that they have no boundaries whatsoever? Fort Wayne has open enrollment, but there is a limit and it's supposed to academically motivated. Does it get abused? Sure. But the difference here is that there is a "limit." 

You keep mentioning 4A enrollment schools dominating 5A. Since the inception of of 6A, only two 4A enrollment schools have won the 5A tournament. During that same time span, four 5A enrollment schools have won the title. There have been 20 participants in the 5A title game, only seven of which were 4A enrollment schools. And we keep talking about the same two schools here in Cathedral and New Pal. I would hardly call that 4A dominance over 5A as a whole. 

Cathedral and New Pal have combined to win 6 of the 10 5A titles, Columbus East also won a 5A title but memory escapes me if they were up due to enrollment or SF from 4A. Either way, when 60% of the state titles have been won by schools who aren't 5A by enrollment its why you get mass people suggest the class is watered down. 

Look I know you're a Snider guy and you have to defend 5A. I'll be the first to admit that Cathedral in most years had an easier time winning 5A than they would have 4A if the SF wasn't enacted. 4A in my opinion is much stronger in Central Indiana than it is in 5A as well as the Southern part of the state and that is the draw Cathedral would have had.

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7 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral and New Pal have combined to win 6 of the 10 5A titles, Columbus East also won a 5A title but memory escapes me if they were up due to enrollment or SF from 4A. Either way, when 60% of the state titles have been won by schools who aren't 5A by enrollment its why you get mass people suggest the class is watered down. 

Look I know you're a Snider guy and you have to defend 5A. I'll be the first to admit that Cathedral in most years had an easier time winning 5A than they would have 4A if the SF wasn't enacted. 4A in my opinion is much stronger in Central Indiana than it is in 5A as well as the Southern part of the state and that is the draw Cathedral would have had.

I believe CE would have SF up to 5a, but their enrollment crossed the threshold at the same time if memory serves

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4 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Cathedral and New Pal have combined to win 6 of the 10 5A titles, Columbus East also won a 5A title but memory escapes me if they were up due to enrollment or SF from 4A. Either way, when 60% of the state titles have been won by schools who aren't 5A by enrollment its why you get mass people suggest the class is watered down. 

Look I know you're a Snider guy and you have to defend 5A. I'll be the first to admit that Cathedral in most years had an easier time winning 5A than they would have 4A if the SF wasn't enacted. 4A in my opinion is much stronger in Central Indiana than it is in 5A as well as the Southern part of the state and that is the draw Cathedral would have had.

If 5a is watered down, then is it fair to say that it was watered down when New Pal and Cathedral were participating minus Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, and Dwenger? One could argue that Valpo won in a watered down 5a. But one could also argue that it was watered down when New Pal and Cathedral won as well. Certainly we can agree on that. 

While were at it, we could always argue how the top five in 5a would do against the top five in 4a. I would concede that the Top 32 teams in 4a outperformed the Top 32 teams in 5a this year. But does it really matter when we know at the half way point of the season which five teams have the best shot at the title? 

Conclusion: The top five in each class would be very competitive matchups.

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29 minutes ago, BTF said:

While were at it, we could always argue how the top five in 5a would do against the top five in 4a. I would concede that the Top 32 teams in 4a outperformed the Top 32 teams in 5a this year. But does it really matter when we know at the half way point of the season which five teams have the best shot at the title? 

Conclusion: The top five in each class would be very competitive matchups.

 

33 minutes ago, Rodney said:

I'll take roncalli EC New Pal Memorial and Brebeuf

you can take your top 5 from 5a. 

match them up however you want

10 times out of 10 4a wins at least 3/5 of those games

5 times out of 10 4a wins  at least 4/5 of those games

4 times out of 10 4a wins all 5 of those games

I think New Pal Roncalli and EC would each beat whiteland and valpo in a double header if they needed to

 

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Agree with what most are saying. As far as the 4A South - East Central, Roncalli, New Pal, even Memorial and Reitz - all probably would've went to/won state in 5A. I mostly believe it, but I've heard many people echo that same belief. It's unfortunate but not sure what can be done about it. One of those things where it just is what it is. I have a feeling it will be similar next year.

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2 hours ago, Football Fanatic said:

Agree with what most are saying. As far as the 4A South - East Central, Roncalli, New Pal, even Memorial and Reitz - all probably would've went to/won state in 5A. I mostly believe it, but I've heard many people echo that same belief. It's unfortunate but not sure what can be done about it. One of those things where it just is what it is. I have a feeling it will be similar next year.

Lol. To say Memorial and Reitz would beat Snider, Valpo, Whiteland, Merrillville, and North Side is an absolute stretch. I have my doubts about New Pal as well. I think East Central and Roncalli would have been favored however. Not saying they'd win, just saying they'd be favored. It's all speculation. Unfortunately those in Central and South will just have to deal with the fact that Valpo is the best time in the second biggest division. Hard pill to swallow, I know. Northern football is good. See the Carroll/HSE score. 

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6 minutes ago, BTF said:

Lol. To say Memorial and Reitz would beat Snider, Valpo, Whiteland, Merrillville, and North Side is an absolute stretch. I have my doubts about New Pal as well. I think East Central and Roncalli would have been favored however. Not saying they'd win, just saying they'd be favored. It's all speculation. Unfortunately those in Central and South will just have to deal with the fact that Valpo is the best time in the second biggest division. Hard pill to swallow, I know. Northern football is good. See the Carroll/HSE score. 

Northern football is good, but not as good as they were years ago.  Gary and South Bend had the best teams in the state for many years.  Its a good thing Valpo won 5a or we would all be singing "Song of the South" by "Alabama"

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13 minutes ago, BTF said:

Lol. To say Memorial and Reitz would beat Snider, Valpo, Whiteland, Merrillville, and North Side is an absolute stretch. I have my doubts about New Pal as well. I think East Central and Roncalli would have been favored however. Not saying they'd win, just saying they'd be favored. It's all speculation. Unfortunately those in Central and South will just have to deal with the fact that Valpo is the best time in the second biggest division. Hard pill to swallow, I know. Northern football is good. See the Carroll/HSE score. 

reitz and memorial could certainly have won 5a

they would not be favorites

any of the other teams would have thoroughly embarassed the entire 5a tournament

I don't get how you could watch snider valpo and/or castle whiteland  and think anything else

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13 minutes ago, BTF said:

Lol. To say Memorial and Reitz would beat Snider, Valpo, Whiteland, Merrillville, and North Side is an absolute stretch. I have my doubts about New Pal as well. I think East Central and Roncalli would have been favored however. Not saying they'd win, just saying they'd be favored. It's all speculation. Unfortunately those in Central and South will just have to deal with the fact that Valpo is the best time in the second biggest division. Hard pill to swallow, I know. Northern football is good. See the Carroll/HSE score. 

A New Pal team minus key injuries can provide doubts. With players like Grayson Thomas they were just as much capable as Roncalli and East Central.

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16 minutes ago, BTF said:

Lol. To say Memorial and Reitz would beat Snider, Valpo, Whiteland, Merrillville, and North Side is an absolute stretch. I have my doubts about New Pal as well. I think East Central and Roncalli would have been favored however. Not saying they'd win, just saying they'd be favored. It's all speculation. Unfortunately those in Central and South will just have to deal with the fact that Valpo is the best time in the second biggest division. Hard pill to swallow, I know. Northern football is good. See the Carroll/HSE score. 

Agree...I think Roncalli, EC, and New Pal would all be heavily favored but Reitz and Memorial...not so much, I like any of the teams you listed by about 2 TDs. 

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21 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Agree...I think Roncalli, EC, and New Pal would all be heavily favored but Reitz and Memorial...not so much, I like any of the teams you listed by about 2 TDs. 

Reitz and Memorial would probably rank somewhere between 5-10 if they were in 5a. 

I think Snider's a different team on turf in the friendly confines of Lucas Oil than they are in a snow storm blowing toward their sideline. I think Roncalli and New Pal use their size to their advantage in inclement weather conditions and beat Snider by two touchdowns, yes. Not sure I'm buying it though in good weather conditions. Snider has too many weapons in the skill positions to allow themselves to get blown out.  

North Side has the athletes and perseverance to stay close to any team they play, as evidenced by their 7pt loss to Carroll. None of the forementioned teams in 4a would frighten them in the slightest. When North takes the field, they're ready to punch you in the mouth (in a sportsmanship kind of way.) If they lined up against Center Grove, they'd fully expect to win (not that they would.)

Again, you guys look at Valpo's record and see a 3 loss football team. They have the horses in the trenches and a running game to keep it close with the likes of Roncalli and New Pal...........oh, and East Central (keep forgetting about them.) 

No one is arguing that Roncalli or East Central would be favored in 5a. I would argue that they wouldn't blow out their opponent from the north. I think New Pal fits nicely in that #3 area along with five other teams in 5a. To say that Memorial and Reitz "would" win 5a north is just laughable. I mean, any team has a chance, but VERY improbable with those two. 

I'll concede that 4a's Top 32 would overmatch 5a's Top 32. But 5a has about 6 or 7 pretty good football teams at the top. Stating otherwise is just stirring up drama.

Valpo is your state champion in the state's second largest division. Can't take that away from them no matter how hard you try. 

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I can however continue to mention that pound for pound 5a is a laughing stock (this year) in comparison to the 4 other classes

Here I'll throw you a bone

Any of the 5a listed teams other than whiteland would have made it to Lucas oil in 4a at least

4a north is actually that bad (still waiting at kilroys)

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4 hours ago, Rodney said:

I can however continue to mention that pound for pound 5a is a laughing stock (this year) in comparison to the 4 other classes

Here I'll throw you a bone

Any of the 5a listed teams other than whiteland would have made it to Lucas oil in 4a at least

4a north is actually that bad (still waiting at kilroys)

A glimmer of light through all this 5a shade...pound for pound 5a programs are 5a for a reason..4a North wouldn't be as weak if Dwenger (a true 4a power) didn't get sf a few years back..shaaaade😎

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On 12/7/2022 at 8:42 AM, Rodney said:

Snider loss to valpo was eye opening

They should have ran that game over before halftime

At the Same time I tried multiple times to watch castle vs whiteland but I just couldn't. It was bad football and to say otherwise is laughable.

5a football was atrocious this year from the top down, new pal ec and roncalli could have mercy ruled the 5a state game, memorial could have won it.

But I stated all this months ago when I mentioned 2015 snider would have absolutely trounced this years team

 

 

It's not indy bias to look at 5a football this year and say it was objectively bad.

I will say Snider underperformed in the Valpo game for sure. Not talking away from Valpo, but how many times does a team need to run off left tackle and the D can't adjust. Think they were also unprepared for the 2 point conversion. 

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15 hours ago, BTF said:

I think Snider's a different team on turf in the friendly confines of Lucas Oil than they are in a snow storm blowing toward their sideline. I think Roncalli and New Pal use their size to their advantage in inclement weather conditions and beat Snider by two touchdowns, yes. Not sure I'm buying it though in good weather conditions. Snider has too many weapons in the skill positions to allow themselves to get blown out.  

I a million percent agree Snider is a different team on turf in Lucas Oil. I might take turf out of the equation (not many grass fields left anymore). I will say though over the last 5 years (while New Pal and Roncalli have had big Offensive Lines) you would be surprised at the speed both teams actually have had and do currently have. Especially New Pal there have been several players for the Dragons that are deceptively fast. Maxson Hook was definitely one of the most deceptively quick and fast football players I have watched in a long time. Even Spegal surprised people with his open field speed against some pretty elite speed guys (Tracy's at Decatur Central).

Even in that 2015-16 State Championship game that Snider beat New Pal 64-61 it kind of turned into a track meet. I personally think (this is just me) that there are a few teams that can do it both ways pound it out in inclement weather or hit with speed in perfect weather Roncalli, New Pal, and East Central would have been in that category. In all fairness I did not get to see much of Snider this year. 

I do know watching Valpo in the State Championship game. They had a big Offensive Line but their RB Travis Davis had some excellent speed and quickness (I personally love the way he hit the holes like raging bull). 

 

Another team that really boosted their speed to me is Center Grove since Eric Moore became the Head Coach. Early on there was a lot more speed out of Warren Central and Ben Davis. CG stayed in games with them with their Wing T offense using some deception. Now I would say I don't see much difference in speed between CG and Ben Davis and Warren Central. Credit for that goes to Coach Moore and his emphasis on speed and agility because he is also their Track coach.

Edited by FastpacedO
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