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5 hours ago, Wedgebuster said:

I didn't realize the gap percentage wise from the bottom to top of 4a.  Greenfield Central is basically double the size of Norwell. 

Look at the gap in 1A ... 100 - 373.

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I would be curious what ‘hard caps’ would look like. But I also know that it would only work with some sort of qualifier - I.e. you can’t have a class of 75 schools fill out a 64 team bracket. 
 

For example:

1A < 350

2A 351 - 550

3A 551 - 800

4A 801 - 1250

5A 1251 - 2000

6A 2000+ 

Really, though if they just figured out a way to get more than 32 teams in 5A, I think that would even out 2,3, and 4 better from a competitive standpoint 

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33 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I would be curious what ‘hard caps’ would look like. But I also know that it would only work with some sort of qualifier - I.e. you can’t have a class of 75 schools fill out a 64 team bracket. 
 

For example:

1A < 350

2A 351 - 550

3A 551 - 800

4A 801 - 1250

5A 1251 - 2000

6A 2000+ 

Really, though if they just figured out a way to get more than 32 teams in 5A, I think that would even out 2,3, and 4 better from a competitive standpoint 

You could, potentially, put 64 in 5A ... the current 32 and the top 32 of 4A ... and have a doubling effect of 1041 at the bottom and 2096 at the top.  It's just slightly more than the range in 4A right now and would probably be less negatively impactful in 5A vs. 4A.

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34 minutes ago, Wedgebuster said:

What's the reasoning behind only 32 in 5a?  I get the problem that 6a is and why they have 32.  

Doesn't 32 in 5a only kick the problem down to 4a?  

I suspect the 32 in 5A was a way of selling the 6A creation as a the same as 6A-I and 6A-II ... basically a "big 6A" and a "regular 6A."  To an extent, it kind of the way Texas approaches "splitting" their 6A.  There's a 6A Div I and 6A Div II, except that those are fluid and based on the qualifiers for post-season.  In each district, the top four teams move on to the post-season.  The two largest move to Div I and the two smallest move to Div II in that class for the post season.  It's not perfect though as, because it's tied to district placement, you could run into a situation where the top team in District A might have 2,000 students and the smallest team in District B might have 4,000 and that would place the District A team in Div I and the District B team in Div II.  For the most part, in tends to align like-size and like-size, but it's not perfect because the sizing takes place at such a granular level.  6A/5A in Indiana pretty much addresses this size issue as well as the fact that Indiana has an all-in post-season.

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2 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

The gap in 6A is 1132 to 2113 from 32nd to 31st.

That's because of SF.  The OP indicated that they included Cathedral in 6A as they already have enough SF points to be bumped.  All of the rest of the classes show the pure enrollment/placement as opposed to Sf considerations ... even though some schools like LCC are actually in 2A right now due to SF.

By enrollment, Warsaw would actually be a 6A school, but will get pushed down due to SF pushing Cathedral up.  Same thing happened to Harrison this go round as they were 32nd in 6A and got bumped down to 5A when Cathedral got SF'd.

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11 hours ago, superjay said:

I would like to see them make 1A 32 teams and 5A 64 teams.  Bye week could really help rosters of less than 40 players.  Be fun to shake things up a bit.

While I agree to an extent, the problem with 1A, if it's 32, there are an interesting number of teams that would be staying are flirting with staying in that class based on numbers.  Cutoff would be right around 279 and that puts schools like Traders Point and Lutheran remaining in 1A along with previous contenders and up-and-coming contenders like Fountain Central, West Washington, Tri, and North Decatur ... without counter-balance balance of schools like Pioneer, Adams Central, South Adams, Covenant Christian, LCC, etc.  Then again, with the new numbers, it looks several of those counterbalance folks are already ending up in 2A anyway even without 32 ... and SF may take care of the folks like Lutheran, Pioneer, and LCC, so perhaps the 2024 season might provide a glimpse of what a 32-team field might look like, albeit with 64 teams still in the mix.

The bye week element though, as you mention, is probably more valuable to 1A teams than any other class.

 

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4 minutes ago, US31 said:

My "evolving" thoughts on classification:

  • 1a = smallest 32
  • 2a - 5a = classes of 64
  • 6a = top 32
  • No P/P allowed in 1A
  • SF is rolling 4 year cycle. 

That is just too logical and makes too much sense. 

If I designed the system, it would be exactly that. 

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13 minutes ago, US31 said:

My "evolving" thoughts on classification:

  • 1a = smallest 32
  • 2a - 5a = classes of 64
  • 6a = top 32
  • No P/P allowed in 1A
  • SF is rolling 4 year cycle. 

If you are going to make SF a 4-year rolling cycle, then why not let the issue of p/p in 1A, or any other class, be organic?

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15 hours ago, superjay said:

I would like to see them make 1A 32 teams and 5A 64 teams.  Bye week could really help rosters of less than 40 players.  Be fun to shake things up a bit.

When we were in the process of creating the current format I suggested this.  It didn’t get much traction from the IHSAA.  They wanted the 32 5A 32 6A setup.   
 

But it’s been 10 years now. Maybe they’d be up for a change.  

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3 hours ago, foxbat said:

If you are going to make SF a 4-year rolling cycle, then why not let the issue of p/p in 1A, or any other class, be organic?

Fair question...All of this is IMHO, just based on my observations and opinion

If you shrink down 1A to the smallest 32 (which should have been done originally...your size outliers are always at the ends of the bell curve), the population advantages a p/p has over tiny public's is magnified even more.  I feel like this should be acknowledged and addressed by classification to prevent the yo-yo ing of a few p/p's that just take their turns running thru 1A.  There are enough of them in 1A that there would likely always be one that bumps back to 1A.

I know Sheridan is always brought up as a "but, but"...however their last title was in 2007, we are close to measuring that in decades plural.  Since that time 11 of 15 have been won by p/p (4 different ones), and 3 times both teams were p/p.  In larger classes you have a very small number of uber successful teams that dominate the state championship game appearances.  But in 1a (and 2A) its several teams that yo-yo around one another.  I think you could argue all of above is happening in 2A but more so....

I guess I'm not willing to say bump them all up to 3A and higher.  But I do feel if we shrink 1A down from 64 to the smallest 32...it should be made exclusive to publics.  

My 2 cents and maybe worth that much👍

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4 hours ago, GoodKn19ht said:

Call me uninformed, but what do you mean by rolling 4 year cycle

***Anyone who can explain this with better clarity...please chime in.  After reading this it may be clear as mud.***

Instead of SF points only being added together in a block of years (2 year classification cycle), they would accrue over any continuous 4 year period.  I like this because you don't have the arbitrary occurrence of School A winning back to back titles in the "same cycle" and moving up, and school B winning back to back titles in separate cycles and not moving up.  

Also a 4 year period is longer and doesn't allow one class of stud players to effect the classification of an entire program.  More points over a longer time shows that the program is truly "successful" and not just a really good class.

Does it mean schools will be bumped up or down more often? Yes

Does it mean sectionals will need to be adjusted more often? Yes

Is it ok if the answer to those questions is "Yes"? Also, yes.

Edited by US31
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34 minutes ago, US31 said:

***Anyone who can explain this with better clarity...please chime in.  After reading this it may be clear as mud.***

Instead of SF points only being added together in a block of years (2 year classification cycle), they would accrue over any continuous 4 year period.  I like this because you don't have the arbitrary occurrence of School A winning back to back titles in the "same cycle" and moving up, and school B winning back to back titles in separate cycles and not moving up.  

Also a 4 year period is longer and doesn't allow one class of stud players to effect the classification of an entire program.  More points over a longer time shows that the program is truly "successful" and not just a really good class.

Does it mean schools will be bumped up or down more often? Yes

Does it mean sectionals will need to be adjusted more often? Yes

Is it ok if the answer to those questions is "Yes"? Also, yes.

Your explanation made sense to me.  But here are some examples as well.  4 year rolling cycle would mean the IHSAA would look at success in 2019-2022 when determining which class a team should be slotted for the 2023 tournament.

Evansville Mater Dei: Sectional (19), Regional (20), Semi (21), State (22) = 10 points

If you looked at 21 & 22, Mater Dei should be up in 3A next fall.  But SF only includes 2022 success and will be re-evaluated AFTER the 2023 season.  A 4 year look would probably say EMD should be bumped up.

Indianapolis Roncalli: Sectional (19), State (20), Sectional (21), Regional (22) = 8 points

East Central: Sectional Loss (19), Sectional Loss (20), Sectional (21), State (22) = 5 points

East Central will get bumped to 5A if they win regional in 2023.  Under a 4 year roll, Roncalli would have more sustained success, especially if they replace the 2019 Sectional point with 2, 3, or 4 in 2023.  But Roncalli will get bumped up ONLY if they win state in 2023.    

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15 minutes ago, US31 said:

Fair question...All of this is IMHO, just based on my observations and opinion

If you shrink down 1A to the smallest 32 (which should have been done originally...your size outliers are always at the ends of the bell curve), the population advantages a p/p has over tiny public's is magnified even more.  I feel like this should be acknowledged and addressed by classification to prevent the yo-yo ing of a few p/p's that just take their turns running thru 1A.  There are enough of them in 1A that there would likely always be one that bumps back to 1A.

I know Sheridan is always brought up as a "but, but"...however their last title was in 2007, we are close to measuring that in decades plural.  Since that time 11 of 15 have been won by p/p (4 different ones), and 3 times both teams were p/p.  In larger classes you have a very small number of uber successful teams that dominate the state championship game appearances.  But in 1a (and 2A) its several teams that yo-yo around one another.  I think you could argue all of above is happening in 2A but more so....

I guess I'm not willing to say bump them all up to 3A and higher.  But I do feel if we shrink 1A down from 64 to the smallest 32...it should be made exclusive to publics.  

My 2 cents and maybe worth that much👍

I understand the issue in the current flawed implementation with just a two-year cycle and a two-year cycle with set start/end capability too.  Of interest is that the teams that have repeated in a class beyond the 6-point number are public schools ... e.g, WeBo won three state titles in a row in the same class due to the cutoff cycle aspect of SF.

I think, with a 4-year rolling cycle, I think a vast number of the gripes about SF go away and also the potential for yo-yoing.  Matter of fact, yo-yoing, even if it happened with p/p would be more indicative of what we'd be trying to control for, which would be actual performance.  Even in the case of the 1A titles that you are mentioning, realize that six of those belong to LCC, four came before SF even happened, and the last two wouldn't have happened as LCC would still likely be in 2A if there wasn't a flaw in the initial SF implementation of four points to stay ... and certainly wouldn't likely have happened under a 4-year rolling cycle.  Once Lutheran goes to 2A, they are less likely to come back down ... and they only need a regional to go up next season.  As for TPC, I think at 100 students, and the smallest school in the state playing IHSAA football, with the next largest clocking in at 169, I think it'd be a shame to send them up to 2A automatically just because the kids pay tuition.

Again, I think an SF 4-year rolling cycle takes care of all of the issues, perceived or actual, and organically balances 1A for you along with the 32-team limit that takes care of others like Park Tudor and Covenant Christian while also getting a jump on the "suburbanization" issue too.

 

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  • 10 months later...
On 12/25/2022 at 11:07 PM, foxbat said:

What's interesting is that Faith fits with the idea of a "county school"; sitting on the "other side" of 65 and actually within the TSC boundaries.  That provides a little more substance to the idea of county growth vs. city decline with Faith, Harrison, and McCutcheon showing growth and LCC and Jeff, within LCS boundaries, and West Lafayette, in its own city school district showing degrees of decline.

In my opinion, Harrison should have taken that step this season and should have won at least a sectional and regional.  You have to give Plainfield credit for their sectional pickup against Harrison.  They hung close and just waited for Harrison to hand over the ball.  Turnovers were the difference this season from being undefeated going into a semi-state game with Whiteland and dropping the first and last game of the season and departing the sectionals way too early.

They carry the ball like a loaf of bread.... 😉

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12 hours ago, Indiana Fan said:

So after the state finals have just concluded, who is moving up and who is moving down with SF? Obviously there will be changes with these numbers once the new ones are released probably in late January/February, but interested to start looking none the less.

  • In 1A, you have Lutheran and AC moving up to 2A.  In AC's case, it might end up being slightly premature like Linton and Scecina in that they got bumped via SF, but then enrollment ended up keeping them there.  Lutheran, being one of the smaller schools in 1A would still have, prior to this season, likely had an opportunity to more easily stay in 2A as I think they could likely manage picking up a couple of points in 2A in a two-year cycle ... pending sectional placement.  With the new 3-point system, I think that's going to be more up in the air ... again, pending sectional placement.
  • In 2A, Luers heads to 3A.  LCC remains in 2A with a regional and sectional over the past two seasons.  Wouldn't be surprised to see Luers end up in the 3A Sectional of Death with Chatard's departure.
  • In 3A, Chatard heads to 4A.  Wonder if IHSAA will put its thumb on the scale again and place them in Roncalli's sectional?
  • In 4A, East Central moves up to 5A.  Dwenger is going back down to 4A after a 6-4 and 6-6 showing over the past two seasons and being bounced in sectionals both years.  Kokomo's yo-yo'ed the past couple of cycles between 5A and 4A on enrollment, so will be interesting to see if they end up back in 5A again.  Brebeuf returns to 3A after a pair of sectional exits.  Will they also end up returned to the Sectional of Death along with Guerin and newcomer Luers?  If the new SF "stay points" start with classification as of this season's end, then Evansville Memorial should be returning to 3A with a pair of sectionals under its belt in the past two seasons.
  • In 5A, Snider will be headed to 6A while last year's state champ, Valpo, escapes SF losing in regional this season.
  • In 6A, Cathedral remains in 6A with a regional last season and a sectional this season.

A couple of notes:

  • 1A TPC will be moving to 8-man in 2024 and so there will be at least one less 1A school from that perspective.  ISD moved to 8-man already this season.  So did Dugger and Rock Creek.  Faith Christian, which has never had football, also started in 8-man this season.
  • SF outcomes:
    • 3 p/p moving up and 2 staying because of SF.  3 public moving up because of SF.  2 p/p moving back because of SF.  0 public moving back because of SF.
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