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Special treatment? Why is Cathedral dropping to 4A?


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3 minutes ago, psaboy said:

OK, I guess that makes sense? Was really hoping for Snider vs New Pal rematch in Indy this November. Implying that Snider got past Dwenger in Sectional.

that would be fun!

who know what will happen with IHSAA...

Edited by CaptainHook
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On 6/16/2019 at 9:34 AM, CoachJackson said:

Let me ask the dumb question. Is the IHSAA only doing realignments for the 4A through 6A sectionals or every class?

Every class has the same Success Factor rules. 

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14 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

As far as I know, Tournament Success Factor points have no bearing in the top class. They will move down strictly on enrollment numbers. They would be the smallest non-TSF in 6A. If FW Snider stays in 6A, that bumps Valpo down. 6A is capped at 32 teams. Although your point is valid....

 

14 hours ago, psaboy said:

I think Valpo is bigger than Snider, so I'm not quite understanding why snider stays with lower enrollment number and same points earned. 

The 2 Point Success Factor rule only applies to teams that have previously been bumped up to a higher class when they earned 6 or more Points in an earlier 2-year cycle. FW Snider football got bumped up after earning 6 points with their 2015 State title & 2016 Regional title.

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58 minutes ago, slice60 said:

 

The 2 Point Success Factor rule only applies to teams that have previously been bumped up to a higher class when they earned 6 or more Points in an earlier 2-year cycle. FW Snider football got bumped up after earning 6 points with their 2015 State title & 2016 Regional title.

So, obviously f Snider earls 6 points in next 2 year cycle they stay in 6A, but if they only earn 2 they will then drop to 5A for the 2021 season??

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1 hour ago, slice60 said:

Every class has the same Success Factor rules. 

Yeah but will this movement create a different 64 teams for 3A, 2A, and 1A, and will that force a situation where all the sectionals will be redone?

Edited by CoachJackson
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1 hour ago, psaboy said:

So, obviously f Snider earls 6 points in next 2 year cycle they stay in 6A, but if they only earn 2 they will then drop to 5A for the 2021 season??

No.

If a team earns 6 Points in a 2-year cycle, they move UP 1 class. If you're already in 6A, there is no 7A.

If a team who has been bumped up from earning  6 or more Points in a previous cycle (like Snider to 6A & Cathedral to 5A) then earns 2, 3, 4 or 5 Points in the next 2-year cycle, they STAY in the same class. (The minimum used to be 3 Points but the IHSAA changed it in Aprill, effective immediately.) Since Snider won 2 Sectionals & Cathedral won 1 Regional during the 2017 & 2018 football seasons, they will STAY in their same classes (Snider 6A, Cathedral 5A) for the 2019 & 2020 football seasons.

If Snider earns only 0 or 1 Point during the next 2 seasons, they will move DOWN 1 class to 5A.

If you're still curious, go to the IHSAA site & read the rule directly.

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1 hour ago, CoachJackson said:

Yeah but will this movement create a different 64 teams for 3A, 2A, and 1A, and will that force a situation where all the sectionals will be redone?

I may be wrong but I don't think that the 1A, 2A, 3A sectionals will be impacted. 

The only bumped-up teams who earned exactly 2 Points were Snider & Cathedral. Somebody will drop from 5A to 4A to replace Cathedral. But it won't flow down below that.

Caveat-- all of this is my best guess.  

 

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2 hours ago, slice60 said:

 

The only bumped-up teams who earned exactly 2 Points were Snider & Cathedral.

 

Makes sense. If it were to two other teams this wouldn't even be a discussion. But since it's Snider and Cathedral, they decided to implement the new rule NOW, not later. But at the end of the day, no one can argue that Snider is a 6a caliber program and Cathedral is a 5a/6a caliber program.

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9 minutes ago, BTF said:

Makes sense. If it were to two other teams this wouldn't even be a discussion. But since it's Snider and Cathedral, they decided to implement the new rule NOW, not later. But at the end of the day, no one can argue that Snider is a 6a caliber program and Cathedral is a 5a/6a caliber program.

I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that it's Snider and Cathedral.

It has everything to do with the fact that they came out with the rule AFTER the football classifications and sectional assignments were created, but originally decided to implement it for Winter and Spring sports as mentioned previously in this thread. That does not make much sense, so the IHSAA is doing the right thing and implementing it for ALL sports starting next year.

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1 hour ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that it's Snider and Cathedral.

It has everything to do with the fact that they came out with the rule AFTER the football classifications and sectional assignments were created, but originally decided to implement it for Winter and Spring sports as mentioned previously in this thread. That does not make much sense, so the IHSAA is doing the right thing and implementing it for ALL sports starting next year.

Decisions like that normally aren't implemented overnight. I'm not complaining though, I felt all along that 6a was a better fit for Snider and 5a (at least) for Cathedral. And the rule is spot on. If you are a sectional champion, you shouldn't go down a class.

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10 hours ago, BTF said:

If it were to two other teams this wouldn't even be a discussion. But since it's Snider and Cathedral, they decided to implement the new rule NOW, not later. 

That's absolutely not true. 

***

If you read the entire thread, you will see that I posted this on June 2nd:

I have only looked at these sports-- Football, Boys Basketball, Girls Basketball, Baseball, Softball. So if anyone has looked at the other sports (Volleyball, etc), please chime in.

As mentioned, two bumped-up Football programs earned 2 Points in the current 2-year cycle but the IHSAA has bumped them DOWN-- FW Snider from 6A to 5A, Cathedral from 5A to 4A.

In Boys Basketball, Marquette earned 2 Points (2 Sectional titles) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA is keeping them UP in 2A.

In Girls Basketball, no bumped-up programs earned 2 Points.

In Baseball, Lafayette Central Catholic earned 2 Points (2018 Regional title, lost in 2019 Sectional) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA will be keeping them UP in 2A.

In Softball, Gibson Southern earned 2 Points (lost in 2018 Sectional, 2019 Regional title) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA will be keeping them UP in 4A.

To my knowledge, there are no other bumped-up Spring sports programs which will be impacted by the recent change from 3 Minimum Points to 2 Minimum Points.

***

The whole purpose of the thread was to ask why the rule change was being implemented for the WINTER & SPRING SPORTS but NOT the FALL SPORTS.  Fortunately, the IHSAA (eventually) recognized the fact that, if the rule change was going to be implemented with the cycle ending in 2018-2019, then they needed to apply it to all sports.

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9 hours ago, slice60 said:

That's absolutely not true. 

***

If you read the entire thread, you will see that I posted this on June 2nd:

I have only looked at these sports-- Football, Boys Basketball, Girls Basketball, Baseball, Softball. So if anyone has looked at the other sports (Volleyball, etc), please chime in.

As mentioned, two bumped-up Football programs earned 2 Points in the current 2-year cycle but the IHSAA has bumped them DOWN-- FW Snider from 6A to 5A, Cathedral from 5A to 4A.

In Boys Basketball, Marquette earned 2 Points (2 Sectional titles) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA is keeping them UP in 2A.

In Girls Basketball, no bumped-up programs earned 2 Points.

In Baseball, Lafayette Central Catholic earned 2 Points (2018 Regional title, lost in 2019 Sectional) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA will be keeping them UP in 2A.

In Softball, Gibson Southern earned 2 Points (lost in 2018 Sectional, 2019 Regional title) in the current cycle-- the IHSAA will be keeping them UP in 4A.

To my knowledge, there are no other bumped-up Spring sports programs which will be impacted by the recent change from 3 Minimum Points to 2 Minimum Points.

***

The whole purpose of the thread was to ask why the rule change was being implemented for the WINTER & SPRING SPORTS but NOT the FALL SPORTS.  Fortunately, the IHSAA (eventually) recognized the fact that, if the rule change was going to be implemented with the cycle ending in 2018-2019, then they needed to apply it to all sports.

Luers won a 3a regional last year and a sectional championship the year before but fall back to 2a due to enrollment. Was this because Luers moved up to 3a because of enrollment not success factor?

Edited by jakone
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14 minutes ago, jakone said:

Luers won a 3a regional last year and a sectional championship the year before but fall back to 2a due to enrollment. Was this because Luers moved up to 3a because of enrollment not success factor?

Yes. The 2 Point minimum Success Factor rule ONLY applies to teams which  are currently playing in a higher class  after being bumped-up for earning 6 or more points in a cycle.

The most extreme possible example would be if a team earns 5 Points but, by enrollment, drops into a lower class. This could have happened to ANDREAN Baseball-- their Enrollment figures have dropped them from 3A to 2A but with last year's State title & this year's Semistate title (& possible State title tonight), they will move up to 4A in Baseball. 

Edited by slice60
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On 6/14/2019 at 2:51 PM, CaptainHook said:

 

Not sure you can do that.  You can elect to stay in a class, but not elect to play up.  Maybe you can, but nobody has ever done it.

Wrong on both counts. Scecina or Ritter, can’t remember which, played up for several seasons before the “success factor.” Cathedral is routinely castigated for not electing to “play up.” Heck, that’s what you’re doing! I just think it ought to work both ways. New Pal’s conference won’t change, but their tournament schedule would, if they elect to play up, maybe they won’t go 20-4 in the tournament, like they have in the past 6 seasons. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you criticize Cathedral for not electing to “play up,” the same criticism applies to New Pal.

On 6/14/2019 at 8:59 AM, slicer28 said:

Bob, do you think that IHSAA should apply the revised Rule 2-5d to the classifications for Fall sports starting in the 2019-2020 school year as they have done for winter and spring sports?

No opinion. Don’t care.

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5 hours ago, Bobref said:

Wrong on both counts. Scecina or Ritter, can’t remember which, played up for several seasons before the “success factor.” Cathedral is routinely castigated for not electing to “play up.” Heck, that’s what you’re doing! I just think it ought to work both ways. New Pal’s conference won’t change, but their tournament schedule would, if they elect to play up, maybe they won’t go 20-4 in the tournament, like they have in the past 6 seasons. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you criticize Cathedral for not electing to “play up,” the same criticism applies to New Pal.

No opinion. Don’t care.

Wrong.

Again, I clarified that I was referring to the Tournament Success Factor Era. Only one school has elected to not move down when they had the chance.  No one has elected to play up.  New Palestine has played in 5A for four years (not six) due to TSF, and will for at least two more.  In their four years in 5A, they have lost a state championship, won a state championship, and lost in their sectional twice.  As a public school with a enrollment less than 1200, that puts them in the middle third of 4A football.  If they were eligible to move down, I would advocate that they stay up, if they've been competitive in that arena.  But tournament success factor takes care of that. 

Cathedral operates under a different set of rules than a public school.  New Palestines roster in 2019 had 53 kids.  Cathedral had over 90.  Their schedule suggests they belong in a higher class.  If you can't see that, not sure that I can help you or your sauce.  I'm glad to see Cathedral stay in 5A for this cycle.  It's the minimum for where they belong in the tournament.

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2 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Wrong.

Again, I clarified that I was referring to the Tournament Success Factor Era. Only one school has elected to not move down when they had the chance.  No one has elected to play up.  New Palestine has played in 5A for four years (not six) due to TSF, and will for at least two more.  In their four years in 5A, they have lost a state championship, won a state championship, and lost in their sectional twice.  As a public school with a enrollment less than 1200, that puts them in the middle third of 4A football.  If they were eligible to move down, I would advocate that they stay up, if they've been competitive in that arena.  But tournament success factor takes care of that. 

Cathedral operates under a different set of rules than a public school.  New Palestines roster in 2019 had 53 kids.  Cathedral had over 90.  Their schedule suggests they belong in a higher class.  If you can't see that, not sure that I can help you or your sauce.  I'm glad to see Cathedral stay in 5A for this cycle.  It's the minimum for where they belong in the tournament.

Didn't Mishawaka elect to play up?  Am I misunderstanding the parameters?

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2 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Wrong.

Again, I clarified that I was referring to the Tournament Success Factor Era. Only one school has elected to not move down when they had the chance.  No one has elected to play up.  New Palestine has played in 5A for four years (not six) due to TSF, and will for at least two more.  In their four years in 5A, they have lost a state championship, won a state championship, and lost in their sectional twice.  As a public school with a enrollment less than 1200, that puts them in the middle third of 4A football.  If they were eligible to move down, I would advocate that they stay up, if they've been competitive in that arena.  But tournament success factor takes care of that. 

Cathedral operates under a different set of rules than a public school.  New Palestines roster in 2019 had 53 kids.  Cathedral had over 90.  Their schedule suggests they belong in a higher class.  If you can't see that, not sure that I can help you or your sauce.  I'm glad to see Cathedral stay in 5A for this cycle.  It's the minimum for where they belong in the tournament.

I’m not suggesting that Cathedral should or should not elect to play up. Only that there are comparable situations. New Pal’s record over the past 6 years - a time span of several cycles of kids - strongly suggesting 5A is no longer competitive for them. The results are what matters, not how many kids they have out, or potential D-1s, or anything else. They could elect to play up. They haven’t. The only explanation is they like competing at that level.  If Cathedral should be condemned for not electing to play up when they are clearly better than their class competition, New Pal should suffer the same fate.

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2 hours ago, Robert said:

Didn't Mishawaka elect to play up?  Am I misunderstanding the parameters?

Mishawaka was in 5A and elected to stay, when they could have dropped to 4A.

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

I’m not suggesting that Cathedral should or should not elect to play up. Only that there are comparable situations. New Pal’s record over the past 6 years - a time span of several cycles of kids - strongly suggesting 5A is no longer competitive for them. The results are what matters, not how many kids they have out, or potential D-1s, or anything else. They could elect to play up. They haven’t. The only explanation is they like competing at that level.  If Cathedral should be condemned for not electing to play up when they are clearly better than their class competition, New Pal should suffer the same fate.

And you are missing the difference between a parochial school vs a public school that operate under totally different circumstance.

And how is 5A not competive for them? They failed to win a sectional half the time they have been in 5A?

Edited by CaptainHook
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40 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

Mishawaka was in 5A and elected to stay, when they could have dropped to 4A.

And you are missing the difference between a parochial school vs a public school that operate under totally different circumstance.

And how is 5A not competive for them? They failed to win a sectional half the time they have been in 5A?

The numbers don’t lie.

Your anti-private - Cathedral is a private school, not parochial - bias is showing. The IHSAA’s “success factor” treats publics and privates alike. You should, too.

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8 minutes ago, Bobref said:

The numbers don’t lie.

Your anti-private - Cathedral is a private school, not parochial - bias is showing. The IHSAA’s “success factor” treats publics and privates alike. You should, too.

I am.  Cathedral and New Palestine are both 4A by enrollment.  If New Palestine had scored two points in the last cycle, I would also feel like they should remain in 5A.  They've shown they can compete there.  So has Cathedral.

As for telling me that I should feel the same way the IHSAA does, that's laughable.  I disagree much about how the IHSAA handles itself, including this disaster of enforcing a rule change at the end of the cycle to some sports and not others.  Ridiculous.  

You also need to look up the definition of parochial.

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7 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

You also need to look up the definition of parochial.

So, although it was unnecessary, I looked it up. In the context of high school education, “parochial” means a school that is tied to certain parishes. Cathedral is not. If you’ll PM me your address, I’ll send you a dictionary.

pa·ro·chi·al
/pəˈrōkēəl/
adjective
  1. relating to a church parish.
    "the parochial church council"
     
     
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Cathedral might not be attached to one parish, but they are certainly attached to the Archdiocese of Indy, as seen by this link.  Whether or not that makes them parochial or not I dont know, but they certainly operate by different rules then public schools.  

 

https://www.gocathedral.com/about/news-marketing/school-news/news-post/~board/homepagenews/post/dear-cathedral-family

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25 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

A parochial school is a private primary or secondary school affiliated with a religious organization, and whose curriculum includes general religious education in addition to secular subjects, such as science, mathematics and language arts. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parochial_school

 

Got one, thanks!

Get a better one.

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