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Special treatment? Why is Cathedral dropping to 4A?

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5 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Get a better one.

I love that your argument has fallen apart so badly you are only left with semantics and my choice of dictionary.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CaptainHook said:

I love that your argument has fallen apart so badly you are only left with semantics and my choice of dictionary.

It’s worth noting - getting back to the actual topic of this thread - that Cathedral regularly punches above its weight class all season long. What’s New Pal’s conference record in the last 6 seasons. I think they.ve lost 2 games at most during that time. Who is.going after “easy” trophies?

Edited by Bobref

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It’s really quite genius of the IHSAA. By putting Cathedral in 4A and Snider in 5A, we are arguing the uniform application of the ‘keep up’ rule.

In the meantime no one argues the stupidity of lowering it from 3 points to 2, or even the validity of a success factor rule. 

Genius. 

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

It’s worth noting - getting back to the actual topic of this thread - that Cathedral regularly punches above its weight class all season long. What’s New Pal’s conference record in the last 6 seasons. I think they.ve lost 2 games at most during that time. Who is.going after “easy” trophies?

Didn’t we cover this? As I’ve already noted, they can’t change their conference. It is a great fit for every other sport. So they’ve beefed up their non-conference. 

As I’ve already said, Cathedral plays a fantastic schedule. Probably just as tough as a 6A MIC schedule. Surely you understand that is easier to do as an independent??

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Cathedral & Snider forced to stay in higher class...& as a special treat, Carmel must go thru the South Semistate in 2020.

image.jpeg.f72f0feb00e0ec6d348ac8bd3ebe2b07.jpeg

Not so happy about my Slicers being in the same Sectional as Valpo & Michigan City starting this fall.

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29 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

Michigan City lost a lot, I think.  Valpo will be tough, I hear.

City lost a lot, but they're still strong with a great coaching staff. 

Valpo will certainly be tough.  Remember they weren't they only lost by 4 to Carmel in semi-state last year.

LP should be improved from last year. Obviously, I'm biased.  A lot is changing on both sides of the ball.  There may be a little learning curve to get through early in the season.

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5 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Didn’t we cover this? As I’ve already noted, they can’t change their conference. It is a great fit for every other sport. So they’ve beefed up their non-conference. 

As I’ve already said, Cathedral plays a fantastic schedule. Probably just as tough as a 6A MIC schedule. Surely you understand that is easier to do as an independent??

Of course it is. The conclusion, then, is that the only way New Pal can challenge themselves is to play up a class in the tourney. Why won’t they? 

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4 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Of course it is. The conclusion, then, is that the only way New Pal can challenge themselves is to play up a class in the tourney. Why won’t they? 

They do!

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New Pal is right where they should be. Winner of Cathedral / Decatur Central will be a challenging Regional matchup. I don't know the far south very well but Castle is a possible Semistate opponent. And 6A battle-tested Valpo could be the representative from the north.

If you're saying that New Pal (enrollment 1,175) should choose to join the 6A tournament in order to face schools with 3, 4 & 5 times their enrollment just to challenge themselves, then you're just being silly.

But the Dragons may earn the 6+ points to get all the way up there in 2 years, just like Columbus East did.

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58 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Of course it is. The conclusion, then, is that the only way New Pal can challenge themselves is to play up a class in the tourney. Why won’t they? 

I swear you and muda are brothers. 

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38 minutes ago, slice60 said:

New Pal is right where they should be. Winner of Cathedral / Decatur Central will be a challenging Regional matchup. I don't know the far south very well but Castle is a possible Semistate opponent. And 6A battle-tested Valpo could be the representative from the north.

If you're saying that New Pal (enrollment 1,175) should choose to join the 6A tournament in order to face schools with 3, 4 & 5 times their enrollment just to challenge themselves, then you're just being silly.

But the Dragons may earn the 6+ points to get all the way up there in 2 years, just like Columbus East did.

I’m not criticizing New Pal for not playing up a class, regardless of their record in their current class. The success factor is the designated solution for teams that regularly play well above their classification. So, you play in your designated class and, if you overwhelm the competition consistently, the success factor takes care of that. Cathedral is where they are supposed to be, according to the IHSAA classification system, as modified by the success factor. They cannot, IMO, legitimately be criticized for that.

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42 minutes ago, CaptainHook said:

Interestingly, with the new TSF rules, Cathedral would never have left 6A . . . 

Good point-- Cathedral won the 6A Sectional in 2015 & 2016 but then dropped to 5A. We will never know how they would have fared in 6A during the 2017 & 2018 tournaments.

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7 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

It’s really quite genius of the IHSAA. By putting Cathedral in 4A and Snider in 5A, we are arguing the uniform application of the ‘keep up’ rule.

In the meantime no one argues the stupidity of lowering it from 3 points to 2, or even the validity of a success factor rule. 

Genius. 

FW Snider won their Sectional in 6A in each of the past 2 years. They seem to be pretty competitive to me.

Marquette boys basketball has won the 2A Sectional for 4 years straight. If the Minimum Points were still at 3, they would have dropped back down to 1A. To me, that's the best example of why the change to 2 Points make a whole lot of sense.

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1 hour ago, slice60 said:

FW Snider won their Sectional in 6A in each of the past 2 years. They seem to be pretty competitive to me.

Marquette boys basketball has won the 2A Sectional for 4 years straight. If the Minimum Points were still at 3, they would have dropped back down to 1A. To me, that's the best example of why the change to 2 Points make a whole lot of sense.

Now this may be slightly off topic...but why is it that football is 1A-6A....but softball baseball basketball are 1A-4A and soccer is 1A-3A?

 

to me this is where the success factor falls short...especially when there are more schools that field soccer, baseball, softball, and basketball than football. 

 

Looking at softball alone...Gibson southern (650 students) and Leo (850 students) are by far the smallest schools in 4A softball....do they compete and win...heck yeah they do. Both made it to semi state and leo lost in the finals of the championship...but if it were divided up like football and the success factor played its part, the two schools would be in 4A/5A and not having to face 6A schools...maybe the make to a hypothetical 6A softball class but at least with more classes there is more room to find the sweet spot of where a school really belongs 

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https://www.elkharttruth.com/sports/high_school/an-open-letter-to-ihsaa-commissioner-bobby-cox/article_841397d2-7b3c-5682-880d-c3a3017a275e.html

Here's an article that backs up your point that the bigger schools are dominating 4A & those other sports like tennis, track&field, cross country, soccer, etc.

***

Here are my own thoughts on why Football has more than 4 classes.

1) Fewer schools play football. 320 currently, compared to over 400 in Boys Basketball. By placing no more than 64 teams in each class for football, state finalists play no more than 6 tournament games & the tournament always takes 6 weeks. With 9 regular season games, nobody plays more than 15 games. Conversely, all other team sports can play multiple games during the same week or even 2 games in the same day sometimes. And it's no big deal for a team to play 7 or more tournament games in those other sports. 

2) In general, enrollment is more important to Football than other sports. Smaller schools with 3 or 4 very talented basketball players or even just 1 super-phenom pitcher can compete with anybody. In Football, you need depth to compete in the higher classes-- teams with a solid 22 almost always beat a team that has a lot of players playing Off & Def plus injuries wreak havoc as the season goes on. When the IHSAA looked closely at who was having success in 5A Football from 1985-2012, they realized that the larger enrollment schools were completely dominating. And that's why they added 6A.

Check out the 5A results from 1997-2012 - it's almost all 6A names here.

image.thumb.png.29776b748e4bf2667afa49e40f43dafc.png 

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21 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

Interestingly, with the new TSF rules, Cathedral would never have left 6A . . . 

That's true.  Let's not fool ourselves, this is the Cathedral ruling!  If there was any question about Bobby Cox and his dislike (mild term) for Cathedral football, this answers them.

GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Gridiron_Junkie said:

When you can win as many championships as Cathedral have you should get special treatment. Why not? It happens with other sports.

There was no whining or special "rules" when Sheridan was winning all their state championships.  Different time I guess.  Or maybe they weren't a private school.

And you do realize that Cathedral hasn't won a state championship since 2014?

Edited by PHJIrish
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21 minutes ago, PHJIrish said:

That's true.  Let's not fool ourselves, this is the Cathedral ruling!  If there was any question about Bobby Cox and his dislike (mild term) for Cathedral football, this answers them.

How do you figure?

The change from 3 Points to 2 had an impact on several schools (both public & private) in a number of sports. Does Bobby Cox also "dislike" Gibson Southern softball? And Marquette boys basketball?

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Let's just drop the idea of playing up. No one's ever done it and no one ever will. It's pretty clear that AD's and coaches are content on playing where the IHSAA places them regardless of whether they are private, parochial, or public. We can argue playing up until we are exhausted...........it's not going to happen.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 10:02 AM, oldtimeqb said:

It’s really quite genius of the IHSAA. By putting Cathedral in 4A and Snider in 5A, we are arguing the uniform application of the ‘keep up’ rule.

In the meantime no one argues the stupidity of lowering it from 3 points to 2, or even the validity of a success factor rule. 

Genius. 

Certainly I'm missing something here. Why is it stupid for a team to "remain" after earning 2 points? Snider earned 2 points by winning sectional championships each year they were in 6a. A team that is good enough to win a sectional championship shouldn't be moving down a class.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 4:18 PM, Bobref said:

Of course it is. The conclusion, then, is that the only way New Pal can challenge themselves is to play up a class in the tourney. Why won’t they? 

They failed to get past sectionals two of the past four years. Despite having a 4a enrollment, they are right where they belong..........in 5a.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 5:22 PM, Bobref said:

Cathedral is where they are supposed to be, according to the IHSAA classification system, as modified by the success factor. They cannot, IMO, legitimately be criticized for that. 

Agree 100%. I've criticized Snider, Cathedral, and Luers in the past for not voluntarily bumping up. But I've changed my tune. If I'm the AD, one of my responsibilities is the financial stability of the Athletic Department. The further you go in the tournament, the more you have in ticket sales. Therefore, boosting the Athletic Department. NO SCHOLL will voluntarily bump up...............not going to  happen! AD's love the $$$$, Coaches love the hardware. Period.

 

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10 hours ago, Gridiron_Junkie said:

When you can win as many championships as Cathedral have you should get special treatment. Why not? It happens with other sports.

If you want to make this argument it really needs to start with Carmel...

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17 hours ago, BTF said:

Let's just drop the idea of playing up. No one's ever done it and no one ever will.

This is a false statement. Mishawaka elected to "play up" in 5A for the 2015 and 2016 seasons after only accumulating 1 point (2013 Sectional Championship) the previous cycle. Their enrollment was at the 4A level, yet they decided to STAY in 5A for two more seasons.

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1 hour ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

This is a false statement. Mishawaka elected to "play up" in 5A for the 2015 and 2016 seasons after only accumulating 1 point (2013 Sectional Championship) the previous cycle. Their enrollment was at the 4A level, yet they decided to STAY in 5A for two more seasons.

People have played up to stay away from someone. 

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