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Fixed classes and rolling success factor in basketball


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Basketballs, baseball, and volleyball may soon have fixed enrollment classes (325 for 2A, 600 for 3A, 1400+ for 4A) and a rolling success factor. 

“Neidig added that the IHSAA is also looking at an alteration to the tournament success factor that would be a “rolling” success factor instead of the current two-year cycle that starts over from zero.”

https://www.courierpress.com/story/sports/high-school/2023/03/22/ihsaa-executive-committee-vote-on-fixed-enrollment-proposal-in-may-iiaaa-indiana-high-school-sports/70036132007/

Not sure fixed classes would be as big an issue, but please let the rolling success factor be applied to football as well! 

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11 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Basketballs, baseball, and volleyball may soon have fixed enrollment classes (325 for 2A, 600 for 3A, 1400+ for 4A) and a rolling success factor. 

“Neidig added that the IHSAA is also looking at an alteration to the tournament success factor that would be a “rolling” success factor instead of the current two-year cycle that starts over from zero.”

https://www.courierpress.com/story/sports/high-school/2023/03/22/ihsaa-executive-committee-vote-on-fixed-enrollment-proposal-in-may-iiaaa-indiana-high-school-sports/70036132007/

Not sure fixed classes would be as big an issue, but please let the rolling success factor be applied to football as well! 

They don't really explain in the article how "rolling" success factor will work...that can mean a couple of different things to me.

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20 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

They don't really explain in the article how "rolling" success factor will work...that can mean a couple of different things to me.

I would assume (and you know what that means) that the last two years would be used instead of resetting every two years.  

Think about how absurd the SF currently is.  We don't know if Mater Dei has achieved enough success points to be bumped up to 3A. Despite being a runner-up in 2021 and winning 2022, if they lose their regional game this fall, they will remain in 2A.  A rolling success factor puts them in 3A for the next two years, regardless of what they do this fall. 

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If you take back to back years for the rolling success factor does that mean that teams will be moved up and down each season?  At least with the current 2 year window, you know who is moving up and down in the next alignment.

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43 minutes ago, Julio said:

If you take back to back years for the rolling success factor does that mean that teams will be moved up and down each season?  At least with the current 2 year window, you know who is moving up and down in the next alignment.

I think it works with the fixed enrollment better, because one going up doesn't necessarily mean someone comes back down.  

Using the same cut-offs, based on the last classifications:

1400+(5A/6A) - 68 + Cathedral.  This could easily be top 32 are 6A and remaining 37 are 5A

600 -1400 (3A in basketball) - 98 Schools

326 - 600 (2A in basketball) - 100 Schools

Under 325 (1A) - 50 schools + LCC when they aren't bumped up

 

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15 hours ago, Julio said:

If you take back to back years for the rolling success factor does that mean that teams will be moved up and down each season?  At least with the current 2 year window, you know who is moving up and down in the next alignment.

Yes.  teams that accrue enough points in any previous two seasons would move up, those that have been SF’d up and don’t earn enough points to “stay up” in any previous two years would move down.  
 

Sectionals would  need to be adjusted each year for those teams.  This is not insurmountable.

14 hours ago, XStar said:

If it's rolling can a team only be bumped up for 1 season?

No.  It’s always a two season move.  It just doesn’t have to be in a specific “window” of two seasons.

Edited by US31
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I like the rolling idea. Indy Lutheran another example (like Mater Dei). Could (probably) end up winning 4 outta 5 before moving to 2A including just going back to back and currently on a 30 game win streak. 

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I find it interesting that folks are highlighting p/p schools as something that this would impact most.  Realize that WeBo won three consecutive 2A titles in 2018-2020.  Of interest is that Luers, who WeBo beat in their third-straight appearance, said nary a word about the supposed "injustice," but I do recall a few public school posters giving WeBo a hard time about that. 

Also, Pioneer had three visits in a row to LOS in 2016-2018 in 1A and actually had four visits in five years 2014-2018.  In contrast, Scecina had only two visits in 2011-2012, lost both, and got bumped to 2A ... the only team, in the history of SF, to get bumped without getting a blue ring in the process. 

While Lutheran and Mater Dei COULD indeed join the club, the programs that have ACTUALLY benefited from the set periods re-evals are public programs.

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3 hours ago, foxbat said:

I find it interesting that folks are highlighting p/p schools as something that this would impact most.  Realize that WeBo won three consecutive 2A titles in 2018-2020.  Of interest is that Luers, who WeBo beat in their third-straight appearance, said nary a word about the supposed "injustice," but I do recall a few public school posters giving WeBo a hard time about that. 

Also, Pioneer had three visits in a row to LOS in 2016-2018 in 1A and actually had four visits in five years 2014-2018.  In contrast, Scecina had only two visits in 2011-2012, lost both, and got bumped to 2A ... the only team, in the history of SF, to get bumped without getting a blue ring in the process. 

While Lutheran and Mater Dei COULD indeed join the club, the programs that have ACTUALLY benefited from the set periods re-evals are public programs.

Think it's more of a highlighting teams from last year. I'm not highlighting Lutheran because they are private....I'd highlight Linton I'm sure over last few years if they were in 1A. I think it's also highlighting teams that haven't moved up. Scenia webo and pioneer just like LCC have moved up. I'd be just fine if WW moved up due to success factor. I do however 100% think you should have to win at least 1 title in order to move up. 2 runner ups shouldn't matter. Just my opinion

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3 hours ago, foxbat said:

I find it interesting that folks are highlighting p/p schools as something that this would impact most.  Realize that WeBo won three consecutive 2A titles in 2018-2020.  Of interest is that Luers, who WeBo beat in their third-straight appearance, said nary a word about the supposed "injustice," but I do recall a few public school posters giving WeBo a hard time about that. 

Also, Pioneer had three visits in a row to LOS in 2016-2018 in 1A and actually had four visits in five years 2014-2018.  In contrast, Scecina had only two visits in 2011-2012, lost both, and got bumped to 2A ... the only team, in the history of SF, to get bumped without getting a blue ring in the process. 

While Lutheran and Mater Dei COULD indeed join the club, the programs that have ACTUALLY benefited from the set periods re-evals are public programs.

My belief is that it should be a rolling 4 year cycle...not just 2.  With a two year cycle in a specific window (what we have now)...you will always have MORE of these instances.  Exactly what I think you are trying to point out.

However it is also accurate that MOST of the success factor examples are p/p's.  100% true that a public can also skate through our current SF cycle rules. 

To keep the p/p apologists from soiling their diapers I heretoforth declare I shall always utilize Western Boone as my first example of any success factor flaw for the entirety of my existance on GID.  If not, may my next bowl of lucky charms be without marshmallows!  I hope this calms the hearts of the holy fathers

🤪

Edited by US31
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Personally, I think that we should get rid of the success factor all together. I'll never understand punishing future teams for the successes of those that came before them. I don't care if you're a public or private school, you classify based on your enrollment and leave it be.

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2 hours ago, Titan32 said:

3A in this proposal is just too large IMO....from an enrollment window perspective.  Looks like they were just trying to balance the number of teams.

I was just giving the breakdown of how many football schools fell in each classification.  Not an actual proposal.  I started to type a longer post but figured no one really wanted to read it.  

But since you asked (not really, but just go with me on this...) 

On 3/23/2023 at 3:54 PM, oldtimeqb said:

1400+(5A/6A) - 68 + Cathedral.  This could easily be top 32 are 6A and remaining 37 are 5A

600 -1400 (3A in basketball) - 98 Schools

326 - 600 (2A in basketball) - 100 Schools

Under 325 (1A) - 50 schools + LCC when they aren't bumped up

Those breakdowns could go a few ways. 

Top-down.  Use the 1400+ hard cap for 5A/6A.  That leaves 248 for 1A - 4A, or 62 per class if divided evenly.  6A would have 32 and 5A would have 37.

Bottom-up. Use the under 325 for 1A - which leaves 50 schools for 1A. Go ahead and make 6A top 32, which would leave 235 for 2A - 5A, or around 59 per class.  

As a math guy who comes from a small town, I kind of like the 'floor' of under 325 is 1A. 50 schools.  Then make 6A the biggest 32 and 5A the next 48.  This leaves 62/63 for 2A, 3A, and 4A.  

What makes basketball so "easy" is they have 16 sectionals and they really don't care about # of teams.  There are 5, 6 7 and 8 team sectionals and no one bats an eye.  If 5A were 48 teams, that makes 6 team sectionals.  If that were the case, should the bye teams face each other in week 2, or both go on the road vs week 1 winners?   Competitive balance is important IMO.  But then again we're talking about an organization that uses ping-pong balls, so maybe it's not that important???

Edited by oldtimeqb
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5 hours ago, US31 said:

 

To keep the p/p apologists from soiling their diapers I heretoforth declare I shall always utilize Western Boone as my first example of any success factor flaw for the entirety of my existance on GID.  If not, may my next bowl of lucky charms be without marshmallows!  I hope this calms the hearts of the holy fathers

 

🤪

I've got five kids.  I've never had marshmallows in my bowls of Lucky Charms.😃

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Does anyone know how this will work?

Due to enrollment, North Daviess (2022 boys 1A basketball champion) was going to move up to 2A in boys basketball. However, they opted to play up in 3A for the 2023/2024 2-year cycle. In the just finished 2023 season, North Daviess was a Regional Champion in 3A. So with that 2 points already earned during this cycle, will North Daviess have to continue to play up in 3A boys basketball for the 2025/2026 cycle?

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3 hours ago, Muda69 said:

A true system of promotion and relegation is the logical answer to all this rhetoric.

 

What is that system? Please give a detailed description of the system and how it would work. Thanks in advance.

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Who would rank and divide the teams and divisions to start with so they can be promoted and relegated? Is there a State that currently utilizes such a system for high school football? 

It's a nice catchphrase that has no practical application in regards to high school football.

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13 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Who would rank and divide the teams and divisions to start with so they can be promoted and relegated? Is there a State that currently utilizes such a system for high school football? 

It's a nice catchphrase that has no practical application in regards to high school football.

I'll let you and other mental giants work out the details.  I'm just the good idea guy.

 

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