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swordfish

US Women's Soccer Team - World Cup

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/worldcup/2019/06/12/world-cup-2019-why-its-ok-run-up-score-like-usa-did-13-0-win-thailand/1429351001/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/magazine/womens-soccer-inequality-pay.html

The US women's soccer team is incredible.  SF could care less that they trounced the Thailand team 13-0 yesterday, and the chorus of "sportsmanship" "over-celebrated" "ran up the score" started immediately.  They are the US women's soccer team and are considered the best in the World.  WTG girls.

The issue to SF its the rising call for "equal pay".  My answer is simple - fill the stands first.  Professional sports is a business.  The team makes more money, the team can afford to pay it's employees more.

The other aspect (which SF can agree with - if it can be reality) is that the Women's National Team (I believe it is separate from the league) should be paid commensurate with the performance and competitive level.

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31 minutes ago, swordfish said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/worldcup/2019/06/12/world-cup-2019-why-its-ok-run-up-score-like-usa-did-13-0-win-thailand/1429351001/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/10/magazine/womens-soccer-inequality-pay.html

The US women's soccer team is incredible.  SF could care less that they trounced the Thailand team 13-0 yesterday, and the chorus of "sportsmanship" "over-celebrated" "ran up the score" started immediately.  They are the US women's soccer team and are considered the best in the World.  WTG girls.

The issue to SF its the rising call for "equal pay".  My answer is simple - fill the stands first.  Professional sports is a business.  The team makes more money, the team can afford to pay it's employees more.

The other aspect (which SF can agree with - if it can be reality) is that the Women's National Team (I believe it is separate from the league) should be paid commensurate with the performance and competitive level.

I agree with your point about equal pay.

Concerning their running up the score against Thailand;  normally I would abhor this kind of behavior but you have to look at how the World Cup tournament is structured.  The U.S. women had every incentive to keep scoring, because goal differential could decide who finishes first in Group F. The U.S. and Sweden—who knocked out the women's team at the 2016 Olympics—are the likely teams to finish first and second in their group. If they tie head-to-head, goal differential would determine who has to play Canada or the Netherlands, and who gets to play the second-place team in Group B. That’s worth the running up the score IMHO.

 

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SF...did you really start a thread about soccer on an American football forum????

 

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I did - However the main topic was meant to focus on the "running up the score" and the "equal pay" controversies.  SF really doesn't watch soccer.......

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USA soccer star Megan Rapinoe refuses to sing national anthem before World Cup match: https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/448157-usa-soccer-star-megan-rapinoe-refuses-to-sing-national-anthem

Quote

U.S. soccer star Megan Rapinoe did not join her teammates in singing the national anthem before the team’s opening match against Thailand in the Women’s World Cup on Tuesday.

According to multiple news reports, Rapinoe stood on silently as other members of the women's national soccer team sang “The Star-Spangled Banner” prior to kick-off. 

....

Ohh, the outrage.  Funny that you see plenty of professional baseball, basketball, and football players not actually sing along to the national anthem and nothing is mentioned.  

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

USA soccer star Megan Rapinoe refuses to sing national anthem before World Cup match: https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/448157-usa-soccer-star-megan-rapinoe-refuses-to-sing-national-anthem

Ohh, the outrage.  Funny that you see plenty of professional baseball, basketball, and football players not actually sing along to the national anthem and nothing is mentioned.  

 

It's not really funny, just sad (IMHO).  Her choice though.  If women's soccer wants to attract more viewers and gain attendance at their matches, maybe making a political statement on the world's stage with maximum exposure to your target market (US Citizens) isn't the best practice.......

Edited by swordfish
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2 minutes ago, swordfish said:

It's not really funny, just sad (IMHO).  Her choice though.  If women's soccer wants to attract more viewers and gain attendance at their matches, maybe making a political statement on the world's stage with maximum exposure to your target market (US Citizens) isn't the best practice.......

So catering to the target market means showing "max patriotism"?  Is an NFL player standing but not singing along to the national anthem somehow a political statement?

 

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Feminists Say It's Sexist To Criticize Female Athletes For Excessive Celebration. That's Insanely Stupid.: https://www.dailywire.com/news/48376/walsh-feminists-say-its-sexist-criticize-female-matt-walsh

Quote

...

It seems that some of the ladies on the team felt the need to theatrically celebrate each goal they scored against a vastly inferior opponent, even when the game had become mathematically out of reach for Thailand. These unsportsmanlike antics prompted criticism from some quarters. And that criticism prompted a much louder, more shrill round of criticism of the criticism. Feminists insisted that it is sexist to accuse women of unsportsmanlike conduct. Incredibly, entire articles have been written around the patently insane premise that only women are subjected to criticism of this sort.

...

This is all just completely wrong and ridiculous on every conceivable level. Male athletes are criticized all the time for excessive celebration and unsportsmanlike conduct. Men who gloat and taunt and rub their victories in the faces of defeated opponents are roundly condemned. Male athletes have been penalized, fined, and tossed out of games for unsportsmanlike behavior. One of the most common debates among NFL fans is whether touchdown celebrations — which were completely banned for many years — are excessive and boorish. Lots of people answer affirmatively to that question, and nobody is afraid to say so publicly.

Would Tom Brady be criticized for this kind of thing? Yes. That's one of the main things Tom Brady is criticized for. Would Tiger Wood be criticized? Yes, and he has been. Would Michael Jordan or LeBron James or any other male star? Yes, and they all have been.

One of the most common cliches in sports — male sports — is to "act like you've been there before." In other words, don't run around the field beating your chest every time you score a point or catch a touchdown pass. Act like it's routine for you — business as usual. The "act like you've been there before" mantra is an admonition of athletes who, on the contrary, act like every pass they catch or basket they make is a game winner. Nobody hesitates to scold male athletes for these kinds of antics. We do it all the time. With one simple Google search, you could find literally thousands of articles on the subject.

Once again, the truth is revealed: Feminists don't want to be treated equally to men. These female athletes are being treated exactly like men in this case and that fact has sent feminists into a fit of blind, f-bomb-spewing rage. No, equality is the last thing they want. What they want is special treatment. They want us to tolerate boorish and stupid behavior from female athletes even if we wouldn't, and don't, tolerate it from men.

 

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22 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

So catering to the target market means showing "max patriotism"?  Is an NFL player standing but not singing along to the national anthem somehow a political statement?

 

As I said - her/his choice.  My choice whether I fill the stands, or watch on TV.  Simple.  My statement was (from a marketing background) if you want to improve marketshare, maybe don't offend a portion of your market......Of which I am not, since I am not a soccer fan.

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1 minute ago, swordfish said:

As I said - her/his choice.  My choice whether I fill the stands, or watch on TV.  Simple.  My statement was (from a marketing background) if you want to improve marketshare, maybe don't offend a portion of your market......Of which I am not, since I am not a soccer fan.

I still don't understand how Ms. Rapinoe choosing not to sing the national anthem is offensive,  since many, many athletes and coaches, at all levels of athletic competition,  also choose not to sing.  

 

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1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

I still don't understand how Ms. Rapinoe choosing not to sing the national anthem is offensive,  since many, many athletes and coaches, at all levels of athletic competition,  also choose not to sing.  

 

SF never said he was offended - Again Muda, SF couldn't give a rat"s patooty about Rapinoe versus Trump moment in the wide scheme of things.  Like you I think it's overdone by the media, and is her choice just like it was Kapernick's choice. 

If a professional athlete or other celebrity figure chooses to venture beyond their profession where they are at the top of their game(s) then so be it.  I don't go to a football game or concert to be reminded of something controversial, I go to see a performance.  And if I am not happy, I'm not going to prance around declaring "I'm so offended", I just won't spend my money next time......

Look this whole thread started because I supported the ladies team's right to go over the top and celebrate, but not the demands for "equal pay".  It had nothing to do with Ms. Rapinoe and the national anthem....

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3 minutes ago, swordfish said:

If a professional athlete or other celebrity figure chooses to venture beyond their profession where they are at the top of their game(s) then so be it.

?  How does choosing not to sing the national anthem at a sporting event equate to "venturing beyond their profession"?     I would contend that the entire spectacle of the national anthem be removed from U.S. sporting events.  It's for propaganda, nothing more.  But I can understand a little while it is played at international events like the World Cup and Olympic games.

 

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25 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

?  How does choosing not to sing the national anthem at a sporting event equate to "venturing beyond their profession"?     I would contend that the entire spectacle of the national anthem be removed from U.S. sporting events.  It's for propaganda, nothing more.  But I can understand a little while it is played at international events like the World Cup and Olympic games.

 

Another word for "getting political".  I came and paid to watch you play a game or enjoy your acting, or listen to you sing, not spout off about politics - do that on your own time. 

OK, I get and can possibly even agree with the premise of removing the national anthem from amateur sports and even professional.  But when the league that pays your salary makes it a requirement, I think you should comply.

Again - you want to have a "national anthem" argument, start a thread.

Back to the thread - the gals demanding equal to men pay to play soccer need to focus on ways to increase their audience to the size of the men's league.  

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4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

USA soccer star Megan Rapinoe refuses to sing national anthem before World Cup match: https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/448157-usa-soccer-star-megan-rapinoe-refuses-to-sing-national-anthem

Ohh, the outrage.  Funny that you see plenty of professional baseball, basketball, and football players not actually sing along to the national anthem and nothing is mentioned.  

 

That's actually not something that's new for her.  She was one of the first non-football, non-Black athletes to join Kaepernick in a show of kneeling for the anthem back in early-fall 2016.  She now stands, but doesn't sing based on a rule put in by the power sthat be that athletes have to stand and honor the flag.

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4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

USA soccer star Megan Rapinoe refuses to sing national anthem before World Cup match: https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/448157-usa-soccer-star-megan-rapinoe-refuses-to-sing-national-anthem

Ohh, the outrage.  Funny that you see plenty of professional baseball, basketball, and football players not actually sing along to the national anthem and nothing is mentioned.  

 

I'd venture a bet that several, along with citizens, don't know the words.

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I would contend that the USNWT has a much larger following than the USNMT; especially on a stage like this. No stats to prove that, but the women's program is FAR more successful; on a much more consistent level than the men's team.

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That said, I also think for some reason, advertisers shy away from the women's team and players; even after they won the cup in the US many years ago, those players had endeared themselves on the American public; but little to no windfall resulted. The lack of equity is definitely a thing; always has been, always will be. It is rare to see the best female athletes make the big bucks in advertising. How many titles did Serena Williams have to win before landing the kinds of dollars the top male athletes get?
since this is Indiana, watch the Janet Guthrie story that ESPN did for 303 for 30. It is a fascinating story to watch. It never seemed she was as competitive as she was, but the obstacles were many, and there is no doubt she belonged in the mix of the top drivers of that time; but she kept getting the door slammed in her face.

I would also argue against the notion that politics has no place on the field; ESPECIALLY for female athletes on this world stage. They don't get the attention or the air time their male counterparts do. In my mind, because of the lack of anything close to equity, this stage is a perfect setting to make a statement.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Muda69 said:

So catering to the target market means showing "max patriotism"?  Is an NFL player standing but not singing along to the national anthem somehow a political statement?

 

I'm not sure comparing a NFL player with an athlete wearing USA on their jersey is completely apples to apples.  Her comments as to why she won't place her hand over her heart speaks more loudly to me. She's made this personal and political about a single administration, and no matter one's feelings about current administrations, the USA is way bigger.

I wonder if she's as vocal speaking out against many of the countries the USA will play that treat their citizens with far less freedoms and dignity.  

 

Edited by TrojanDad
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8 hours ago, Irishman said:

I would contend that the USNWT has a much larger following than the USNMT; especially on a stage like this. No stats to prove that, but the women's program is FAR more successful; on a much more consistent level than the men's team.

you are probably right Irish....TV ratings up for the US women while they continue to decline for the men.  The issue doesn't seem to be with watching on TV....its getting people to the stadiums.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/womens-world-cup-matches-sold-out

 

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15 hours ago, foxbat said:

I'd venture a bet that several, along with citizens, don't know the words.

I know the words, but I spare the people around me by not singing them.

Not a good song for a baritone. 

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7 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I'm not sure comparing a NFL player with an athlete wearing USA on their jersey is completely apples to apples.  

Probably a good point.  I still don't believe standing but choosing not to sing (or even mouth the words for that matter)  the national anthem is some sort of political statement.

 

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8 hours ago, Irishman said:

 

I would also argue against the notion that politics has no place on the field; ESPECIALLY for female athletes on this world stage. They don't get the attention or the air time their male counterparts do. In my mind, because of the lack of anything close to equity, this stage is a perfect setting to make a statement.

We disagree on this one.  I am sick to death of politics being center stage in sports.  I get enough of politics and she can schedule press conferences and interview anytime she likes to get "her views" across....then I can choose to watch and listen.  

The USA is bigger than one person's view....she is representing our country....and against many countries where true suppression exists.  She isn't bigger than her teammates and her actions take away from the team and it's players being the focus.  It's supposed to be TEAM first in sports....she's made it about herself and her views, which may or may not represent the feelings of her teammates.

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1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Probably a good point.  I still don't believe standing but choosing not to sing (or even mouth the words for that matter)  the national anthem is some sort of political statement.

 

I agree Muda, the simple action is not a political statement at least she stands - So we should just overlook her saying "My national anthem protests are an ‘F you’ to Trump administration" last month?

https://nypost.com/2019/05/14/megan-rapinoe-my-national-anthem-protests-are-an-f-you-to-trump-administration/

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