Turf 2020 and Beyond

[Ballhawk]

I'm not taking sides on this, but could someone please provide a cost analysis on turf vs. natural grass?  I'm a little skeptical that installing turf saves money.

What does installation and upkeep cost for a turf stadium?  What does maintenance of a natural grass field cost?

I get that turf allows more opportunities for more groups to use a field without destroying it, but I'd rather see that argument than the one that it saves money over the lifetime of the turf.  I'm not convinced that this is true.

Someone give me some numbers.

[scarab527]

38 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

https://apnews.com/article/nfl-nflpa-aaron-rodgers-achilles-injury-grass-fields-artificial-surface-0b6bd58da43d52b0a8578bd7e70228d3

 

Using that logic lets go back to leather helmets, or no helmets at all. 

 

Exactly. 
 

Might as well take the helmets off baseball players in the batter’s box, because if you’re scared of getting hit in the head with the ball, don’t play a sport where someone throws a ball at you, right? 
 

Using logic and science here is pretty much useless it seems. 

[FastpacedO]

2 hours ago, scarab527 said:

Except they’ve done studies specifically focused on high school and found the exact same stuff: 

h

You are missing the nuances in the reports though. The study is looking at injuries and did they happen on Turf or on grass. It also points out to wear the proper shoes/cleats, in other words the study didn't account for how many were actually wearing the proper shoes/cleats. It also didn't look at how or what caused the injury. Just because there is a "ACL" injury does not mean that injury was caused by turf or grass. They could have stepped onto another player and injured their ACL. Having watch specifically Aaron Rodgers injury his foot planted into the ground (which could happen on grass or turf) and as he was being tackled it stuck tearing his achilles, this 100% could happen on any playing surface. Heck I watched an torn achilles by a motorcross racer who wasn't touching grass or turf with his foot but a foot peg and had on motorcross boots.

A study that broad can be turned many ways. Look up studies on deaths in cars vs airplanes. Should everyone switch to their own personal airplane?

 

[JQWL]

38 minutes ago, Ballhawk said:

I'm not taking sides on this, but could someone please provide a cost analysis on turf vs. natural grass?  I'm a little skeptical that installing turf saves money.

What does installation and upkeep cost for a turf stadium?  What does maintenance of a natural grass field cost?

I get that turf allows more opportunities for more groups to use a field without destroying it, but I'd rather see that argument than the one that it saves money over the lifetime of the turf.  I'm not convinced that this is true.

Someone give me some numbers.

It's been about 3 years ago, West Washington was talking about going turf. One of the WW school board members taught next to me and he told me their cost analysis showed it was basically a wash financially. The upkeep of the grass field over the expected life of the turf was the same as installing the turf.

[WWFan]

1 hour ago, JQWL said:

It's been about 3 years ago, West Washington was talking about going turf. One of the WW school board members taught next to me and he told me their cost analysis showed it was basically a wash financially. The upkeep of the grass field over the expected life of the turf was the same as installing the turf.

And to add to that I believe that's probably why they built the indoor practice facility instead. Still allows more groups on it and allows practice during bad weather. I think that was a great investment.

[JQWL]

11 minutes ago, WWFan said:

And to add to that I believe that's probably why they built the indoor practice facility instead. Still allows more groups on it and allows practice during bad weather. I think that was a great investment.

Absolutely. I'd much rather have that indoor facility than turf.

[btownqbcoach1]

2 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

I'm not taking sides on this, but could someone please provide a cost analysis on turf vs. natural grass?  I'm a little skeptical that installing turf saves money.

What does installation and upkeep cost for a turf stadium?  What does maintenance of a natural grass field cost?

I get that turf allows more opportunities for more groups to use a field without destroying it, but I'd rather see that argument than the one that it saves money over the lifetime of the turf.  I'm not convinced that this is true.

Someone give me some numbers.

But the #s aren't what you should compare.... what you should compare is the # of hours you can be on each of them. 

Those #s aren't comparable. You essentially can barely touch a grass field to ensure it makes it through a season.... and that's not even counting practicing on it, or the off-season. 

2 minutes ago, JQWL said:

Absolutely. I'd much rather have that indoor facility than turf.

That's crazy with how much you can be on the turf. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by btownqbcoach1

[gonzoron]

3 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Using that logic lets go back to leather helmets, or no helmets at all. 

Using your logic, that's how you want it. On grass.

Edited September 13, 2023 by gonzoron

[Muda69]

5 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Using your logic, that's how you want it. On grass.

No, I just want Indiana High School Football played on grass.  

[btownqbcoach1]

hahahahahahahahahaha ^

2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

No, I just want Indiana High School Football played on grass.  

Which makes no sense, and... clearly isn't realistic. But, by god... carry on! 

[JQWL]

22 minutes ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

That's crazy with how much you can be on the turf. 

I think it has to do with what all we could do with an indoor facility. You can drop the batting cages and hit year round. You can go in and have football practice in poor weather. Track and Field could use it pre-season. Maybe your hard core tennis players could use it too. We already have a practice field that's full width and 80 yards long. We don't need to be on the game field all the time.

[Impartial_Observer]

Well this thread has been Mudasized!

[gonzoron]

17 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

No, I just want Indiana High School Football played on grass.  

That way you can let your horse graze after you ride it to the game.

[btownqbcoach1]

12 minutes ago, JQWL said:

I think it has to do with what all we could do with an indoor facility. You can drop the batting cages and hit year round. You can go in and have football practice in poor weather. Track and Field could use it pre-season. Maybe your hard core tennis players could use it too. We already have a practice field that's full width and 80 yards long. We don't need to be on the game field all the time.

I can't imagine it getting more use than our field, or even anything close to it.. and you still have the issue of JV, youth, 7/8 ruining your game field. 

Which.. every year.. ours was absolutely torched no matter how much we didnt use it. 

Plus-- we added significantly more and better parking by getting rid of most of our practice field. We have batting cages to take batting practice in, and we use the Aux gym if its poor weather after school or we just stay on the turf. 

What we didn't have is the ability to be on a field 24/7 and not ruin it. 

10 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Well this thread has been Mudasized!

Well with the lack of mods, it was bound to happen.

[Muda69]

20 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

That way you can let your horse graze after you ride it to the game.

Why not?  Helps with keeping the grass at the correct height.  

[Impartial_Observer]

10 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Why not?  Helps with keeping the grass at the correct height.  

You obviously don’t know much about the equine industry. 

[Ballhawk]

1 hour ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

But the #s aren't what you should compare.... what you should compare is the # of hours you can be on each of them. 

Those #s aren't comparable. You essentially can barely touch a grass field to ensure it makes it through a season.... and that's not even counting practicing on it, or the off-season. 

The statement made is that it will save money on upkeep for the life of the turf.  I want to see the numbers to prove that.

I stated more groups could utilize it, but that doesn't have anything to do with cost savings.

Again, I'm not against turf, but I want to know the truth about cost savings, not that more kids could use it.  At a small school, only band and youth football might use it.  Does that justify the cost?  Does the soccer team want to play on turf?

[Bash Riprock]

I know I have personally seen people tear their achilles playing pickup basketball.  Definitely not on turf.  I bet one could research some pretty decent achilles injuries suffered by Euro soccer players...on grass.

A 40 year old tears his achilles during a contact play and people are acting surprised blaming the surface??

[Irishman]

Just spent some time talking to our director of facilities. here are some numbers 

Initial installation of the turf was $800,000. That included removal of 12 inches of dirt, installation of the drainage system, the materials that go under the turf for an even surface, and then the turf itself. The life of the turf is about 10 years. To replace just the turf will be $200,000

Maintenance of the turf includes 

Grooming once a week to remove trash and even out the rubber pellets. That takes 2 hours, and is done 27 times a year from the beginning of Spring Soccer in Mid April through the end of November. Man hours on that come out to about $2500 

The contract with the installer includes an inspection once a year for $1200. That inspection includes looking at the seams, and a G Max test, to test the impact the field can absorb. There is a sstandard for determining if the field can still be used for football with that test. 

So a rough estimate is about $5,000 a year to maintain the field. 

 

Now for grass

Painting the field for 6 home games average including playoffs

4 hours for the boundary lines and the full lines every 5 yards

Depending on the number of people working, the numbers and hash marks can take another 4-6 hours; longer for fewer people. For 6 games a year to pay for man hours alone, that comes to about $10,000 for a season in labor and paint. The paint cost will vary. A 5 gallon bucket is about $60. He was not sure how many buckets were used per game. 

Grass was cut once a week, so about $2,400 for that in man hours.

The field was watered from early Spring through the end of the season. he did not have the numbers for what watering cost. With the amount of water used, that is more than likely the biggest expense. The only comparison I have is that to put 15,000 gallons of water in my pool was $200 here in Fort Wayne. I hav no idea how many gallons were used a day on the field. 

Fertilizer for the grass was $1,200. 

Seeding the field, and overseeding done in late Fall, and aerating the field was $500. 

 

What is not accounted for in most high schools

Maintenance for grass can run between $30,000 to do as little as possible to $60,000 to put time and effort into a nice field. A friend from outside of Indy that used to coach said that $60,000 was the annual cost their AD presented to the board before a decision was made for installing turf. 

It is also recommended that grass fields be resurfaced every 10 years to add new topsoil, recrown the field for proper drainage. 

Usage

Prior to turf being a big thing, most fields in Indiana were low end as far as care went. Even on good fields, usage was drastically limited. Even a varsity team was limited to how much they could practice on the grass. We had PAL games on Saturdays on ours, JV games on Mondays, Middle School games on Wednesdays, and Freshmen games on Thursdays. We did not share our field with soccer, but several did. 

The band could not use the grass field for practice because of the wear and tear of marching, and wheeling the props on and off. 

Physical Education classes could not use the field.

Have I mentioned what happens to a field when it rains? Especially what happens to it on a game day? Once the cooler weather sets in, most grass fields deteriorate rapidly. 

 

In the long run, over a 10 year period, a grass field easily costs more to maintain than it does to install and maintain a turf field. The usage increased about 300% on our field as a result of turf installation. In my 16 years here, I have seen far more serious injuries on our crappy grass field than I have on our turf. 

I will ignore any study that does not involve at least 100 grass fields...and I want to know for certain that it includes grass fields that are poorly maintained. 

College and pro teams certainly have the resources to maintain quality grass fields, and I have no problem with those athletes and experts wanting to switch. But for multi purpose fields, which every high school field in this state is, I will still contend the safer and more cost effective thing is turf.  

 

[btownqbcoach1]

2 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

The statement made is that it will save money on upkeep for the life of the turf.  I want to see the numbers to prove that.

I stated more groups could utilize it, but that doesn't have anything to do with cost savings.

Again, I'm not against turf, but I want to know the truth about cost savings, not that more kids could use it.  At a small school, only band and youth football might use it.  Does that justify the cost?  Does the soccer team want to play on turf?

Of course it does. 

We are a small school and infinite amounts of more groups use the turf than band, football. 

But you want a cost analysis, that's fine, but make sure it's an apples to apples comparison. You spend X amount of dollars for so much time on the turf vs X amount of dollars for the time on a grass field.  

You have to take into account the massive disparity in usage time or the comparison is a waste of time. 

I'm failing to see the advantages of grass, other than... yeah, not spending any money. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by btownqbcoach1

[dazed and confused]

make sure that study includes wet grass

we can git lotsa rain in these parts 

[gonzoron]

10 minutes ago, dazed and confused said:

make sure that study includes wet grass

we can git lotsa rain in these parts 

They get a lot in one small area of Fort Wayne also.

[Yuccaguy]

Remember. we are EQUATING most High School fields to that of Collegiate and Professional fields.

At the HS level "Cletus and his friends" are probably maintaining the turf.  Let's be serious people! 

I'll agree at many Collegiate, and EVERY Professional level, a grass surface would be maintained at a level that none other could achieve.  

We are comparing apples and nuclear bombs!  

[Ballhawk]

11 hours ago, Irishman said:

Just spent some time talking to our director of facilities. here are some numbers 

Initial installation of the turf was $800,000. That included removal of 12 inches of dirt, installation of the drainage system, the materials that go under the turf for an even surface, and then the turf itself. The life of the turf is about 10 years. To replace just the turf will be $200,000

Maintenance of the turf includes 

Grooming once a week to remove trash and even out the rubber pellets. That takes 2 hours, and is done 27 times a year from the beginning of Spring Soccer in Mid April through the end of November. Man hours on that come out to about $2500 

The contract with the installer includes an inspection once a year for $1200. That inspection includes looking at the seams, and a G Max test, to test the impact the field can absorb. There is a sstandard for determining if the field can still be used for football with that test. 

So a rough estimate is about $5,000 a year to maintain the field. 

 

Now for grass

Painting the field for 6 home games average including playoffs

4 hours for the boundary lines and the full lines every 5 yards

Depending on the number of people working, the numbers and hash marks can take another 4-6 hours; longer for fewer people. For 6 games a year to pay for man hours alone, that comes to about $10,000 for a season in labor and paint. The paint cost will vary. A 5 gallon bucket is about $60. He was not sure how many buckets were used per game. 

Grass was cut once a week, so about $2,400 for that in man hours.

The field was watered from early Spring through the end of the season. he did not have the numbers for what watering cost. With the amount of water used, that is more than likely the biggest expense. The only comparison I have is that to put 15,000 gallons of water in my pool was $200 here in Fort Wayne. I hav no idea how many gallons were used a day on the field. 

Fertilizer for the grass was $1,200. 

Seeding the field, and overseeding done in late Fall, and aerating the field was $500. 

 

What is not accounted for in most high schools

Maintenance for grass can run between $30,000 to do as little as possible to $60,000 to put time and effort into a nice field. A friend from outside of Indy that used to coach said that $60,000 was the annual cost their AD presented to the board before a decision was made for installing turf. 

It is also recommended that grass fields be resurfaced every 10 years to add new topsoil, recrown the field for proper drainage. 

Usage

Prior to turf being a big thing, most fields in Indiana were low end as far as care went. Even on good fields, usage was drastically limited. Even a varsity team was limited to how much they could practice on the grass. We had PAL games on Saturdays on ours, JV games on Mondays, Middle School games on Wednesdays, and Freshmen games on Thursdays. We did not share our field with soccer, but several did. 

The band could not use the grass field for practice because of the wear and tear of marching, and wheeling the props on and off. 

Physical Education classes could not use the field.

Have I mentioned what happens to a field when it rains? Especially what happens to it on a game day? Once the cooler weather sets in, most grass fields deteriorate rapidly. 

 

In the long run, over a 10 year period, a grass field easily costs more to maintain than it does to install and maintain a turf field. The usage increased about 300% on our field as a result of turf installation. In my 16 years here, I have seen far more serious injuries on our crappy grass field than I have on our turf. 

I will ignore any study that does not involve at least 100 grass fields...and I want to know for certain that it includes grass fields that are poorly maintained. 

College and pro teams certainly have the resources to maintain quality grass fields, and I have no problem with those athletes and experts wanting to switch. But for multi purpose fields, which every high school field in this state is, I will still contend the safer and more cost effective thing is turf.  

 

I appreciate you taking the time to present this.  I would just want to know the cost savings were real if I were to advocate for a turf field.  This breaks it down perfectly.

[FastpacedO]

13 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

The statement made is that it will save money on upkeep for the life of the turf.  I want to see the numbers to prove that.

Again, I'm not against turf, but I want to know the truth about cost savings, not that more kids could use it.  At a small school, only band and youth football might use it.  Does that justify the cost?  Does the soccer team want to play on turf?

Here is one for 2 NFL stadium comparison. I will point out that while product cost is not much difference (at the NFL level). There is a huge difference in man hours (almost double for natural grass). Man hours are not cheap either, so you are almost doubling the cost for Natural Grass at the NFL level.

9 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Remember. we are EQUATING most High School fields to that of Collegiate and Professional fields.

At the HS level "Cletus and his friends" are probably maintaining the turf.  Let's be serious people! 

I'll agree at many Collegiate, and EVERY Professional level, a grass surface would be maintained at a level that none other could achieve.  

We are comparing apples and nuclear bombs!  

Winner winner chicken dinner! 100% agree!