Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Muda69

Those darn Jesuits are at it again: Archdiocese of Indianapolis cut ties with Brebeuf

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Quite clearly, many do not feel the same way.

Good for them. That minister lost a lot of the congregation, so I’m not alone in that judgement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A more accurate count has the total taxpayer funding of the ArchIndy schools at $38.6 Million. The total for the last 3 years is $110 Million. So, the question again is, should a system that is allowed to discriminate for religious reasons be able to continue taking taxpayer money?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Irishman said:

A more accurate count has the total taxpayer funding of the ArchIndy schools at $38.6 Million. The total for the last 3 years is $110 Million. So, the question again is, should a system that is allowed to discriminate for religious reasons be able to continue taking taxpayer money?

I struggle with those words.  Should a religious institution, using the bible as a basis, not be allowed to set moral standards?  Not everyone agrees with the LGBT lifestyle, and they base this upon what they feel is divine direction.  Who says their necessarily wrong?  That doesn't mean they hate anyone...simply have moral objections.

Did the private institution make it crystal clear as to their standards, and the employee signed abiding to them?  The employee had free will.  No one forced them to seek employment from this particular employer.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I struggle with those words.  Should a religious institution, using the bible as a basis, not be allowed to set moral standards?  Not everyone agrees with the LGBT lifestyle, and they base this upon what they feel is divine direction.  Who says their necessarily wrong?  That doesn't mean they hate anyone...simply have moral objections.

Did the private institution make it crystal clear as to their standards, and the employee signed abiding to them?  The employee had free will.  No one forced them to seek employment from this particular employer.

 

That does not really address the question though. If it is a completely private institution, then yes, they have their rules. The crux of the issue for me is should this system be allowed to take tax dollars AND use a discriminatory hiring process? In my mind, one of them has to give. They should not have it both ways. If this were a public school, it would be illegal to fire this person. The money that the Catholic schools gets comes from the same source as public schools. Should they have to play by the exact same rules? 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Irishman said:

That does not really address the question though. If it is a completely private institution, then yes, they have their rules. The crux of the issue for me is should this system be allowed to take tax dollars AND use a discriminatory hiring process? In my mind, one of them has to give. They should not have it both ways. If this were a public school, it would be illegal to fire this person. The money that the Catholic schools gets comes from the same source as public schools. Should they have to play by the exact same rules? 

Not if you truly believe the tax money goes with the child and not to some geographic entity like a "school district".   And you truly believe in the parent being able to choose where their child goes to school, and where their tax money is getting spent.

 

  • Haha 1
  • Disdain 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Not if you truly believe the tax money goes with the child and not to some geographic entity like a "school district".   And you truly believe in the parent being able to choose where their child goes to school, and where their tax money is getting spent.

 

Still does not even address the question. And apparently, the strict interpretation of the Constitution that you profess often, only applies where you see fit?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Irishman said:

Still does not even address the question. And apparently, the strict interpretation of the Constitution that you profess often, only applies where you see fit?

Yes, it does.  You automatically discount it because it doesn't reflect your worldview regarding education.    And I don't recall taxpayer funded education being a part of the U.S. Constitution.  However it is part of the Indiana State Constitution (Article 8, sections 1-8).  Nice try though.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you are ok with entities that receive tax dollars having discriminating practices in their employment policies as well as what customers they accept. Got it....Cafeteria Constitutionalist. 😂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Irishman said:

So you are ok with entities that receive tax dollars having discriminating practices in their employment policies as well as what customers they accept. Got it....Cafeteria Constitutionalist. 😂

Again Irishman, is a taxpayer funded education part of the Indiana State Constitution or is it not?   And yes, I am ok with educational entities that receive tax dollars having discriminating practices in their employment policies as well as what customers they accept, since this may help to bring us that much closer to the abolition of government owned and managed school corporations altogether.   Government out of the education business entirely is a policy that I believe I have been consistent on during my time here on the GID.

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You would think with the resources of the Catholic Church they could hire a decent PR firm and quit stepping on their own di...s

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Again Irishman, is a taxpayer funded education part of the Indiana State Constitution or is it not?   And yes, I am ok with educational entities that receive tax dollars having discriminating practices in their employment policies as well as what customers they accept, since this may help to bring us that much closer to the abolition of government owned and managed school corporations altogether.   Government out of the education business entirely is a policy that I believe I have been consistent on during my time here on the GID.

 

Article 8 of the Indiana Constitution requires the State to establish a system of Common Schools [aka, a public school system] that's tuition free. It does not guarantee a taxpayer-funded education if someone chooses to have their children attend a (tuition-charging) privately-established school, in lieu of a state-established (no-tuition) Common School.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

Article 8 of the Indiana Constitution requires the State to establish a system of Common Schools [aka, a public school system] that's tuition free. It does not guarantee a taxpayer-funded education if someone chooses to have their children attend a (tuition-charging) privately-established school, in lieu of a state-established (no-tuition) Common School.  

Hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth from pro-government education zealots like Irishman who hate having those taxpayers funds actually "follow the child" to a non-Common school.  The end result is the same; actual competition for government schools that hopefully will one day end with their closing altogether.

 

 

  • Haha 1
  • Disdain 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth from pro-government education zealots like Irishman who hate having those taxpayers funds actually "follow the child" to a non-Common school.  The end result is the same; actual competition for government schools that hopefully will one day end with their closing altogether.

 

 

You will need to amend the State Constitution, obviously, for that to happen.  It is weird to me that you favor this government subsidizing of religious organizations with your tax dollars, but, hey, you have said before that you are not consistent in you supposed principles....  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Wabash82 said:

You will need to amend the State Constitution, obviously, for that to happen.  It is weird to me that you favor this government subsidizing of religious organizations with your tax dollars, but, hey, you have said before that you are not consistent in you supposed principles....  

"Supposed principles"?   What exactly does that mean Wabash? 

And yes, in this rare circumstance I am OK with the de-facto government subsidization of religious educational organizations because it can result in real competition for the government schools and introduce more parents to the concept of school choice. After all don't these tax dollars help to keep your precious Indianapolis Cathedral & South Bend St. Joseph open?

 Once the Indiana State Constitution is amended to do away  with the government funding of primary education the issue will be moot, will it not?

 

  • Disdain 1
  • Kill me now 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Muda, you've been played.

The voucher program is not creating new competition for Indiana public schools. The vast majority of the schools getting voucher payments are, as you noted, Catholic and other Christian-sponsored schools that were already existing "competitors" to their local public schools. And the students using vouchers at those schools mostly kids whose parents very likely would have sent them to that school anyway. 

Accordingly, the principal beneficiaries of the voucher program have been Indiana's Catholic dioceses (is that the plural?) and the Protestant churches/denominations that sponsor schools.  In the past they had to subsidize tuition costs for many of their schools' students out of their collection plates. Now, the State of Indiana subsidizes their students' tuition costs for them - to the tune of $30+ million a year just for the Indianapolis archdiocese alone, per Irishman's report.

That's millions freed up to pay for proselytizing to heathens like you, to buy more gold chalices (or a private jet for pastor in the case of the Protestant schools),  or fund the settlement of pedophile cases, etc.    

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep...cafeteria constitutionalist 😂😂😂🤪

  • Thanks 1
  • Disdain 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Supposed principles"? 

Image result for flip flop

  • Like 1
  • Disdain 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/26/2019 at 6:02 PM, Irishman said:

That does not really address the question though. If it is a completely private institution, then yes, they have their rules. The crux of the issue for me is should this system be allowed to take tax dollars AND use a discriminatory hiring process? In my mind, one of them has to give. They should not have it both ways. If this were a public school, it would be illegal to fire this person. The money that the Catholic schools gets comes from the same source as public schools. Should they have to play by the exact same rules? 

I hear you Irish....I guess I didn't know in the first place that private institutions are receiving tax dollars.  I am scratching my head on that fact, and not so much them applying their biblical foundations to their faith based institution.

Again, I don't see this hiring practice as discriminatory.  Are faith based private schools required to be Equal Opportunity Employers?  They absolutely should be able to apply their faith based principles to the management of their institutions and not be forced to compromise values that originate from the bible.  If they are forced to adopt standards by a segment of society (many who do not practice their faith), why have faith based schools?

Again, individuals applying to these private schools understand the standards.  It looks like some that were dismissed lived knowingly in non-compliance to these standards.  

I do get your perspective and not saying at all you're wrong.....just sharing a perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/27/2019 at 8:53 PM, Wabash82 said:

Muda, you've been played.

The voucher program is not creating new competition for Indiana public schools. The vast majority of the schools getting voucher payments are, as you noted, Catholic and other Christian-sponsored schools that were already existing "competitors" to their local public schools. And the students using vouchers at those schools mostly kids whose parents very likely would have sent them to that school anyway. 

Accordingly, the principal beneficiaries of the voucher program have been Indiana's Catholic dioceses (is that the plural?) and the Protestant churches/denominations that sponsor schools.  In the past they had to subsidize tuition costs for many of their schools' students out of their collection plates. Now, the State of Indiana subsidizes their students' tuition costs for them - to the tune of $30+ million a year just for the Indianapolis archdiocese alone, per Irishman's report.

That's millions freed up to pay for proselytizing to heathens like you, to buy more gold chalices (or a private jet for pastor in the case of the Protestant schools),  or fund the settlement of pedophile cases, etc.    

 

Again Mr. Wabash82,.  my ultimate goal is the dissolution of government K-12 schools entirely.  If the voucher programs allow existing parents to now send their child(ren) to already existing Catholic and other Christian-sponsored competitor schools, it is a small step toward that goal.

 

On 6/27/2019 at 9:01 PM, Irishman said:

Yep...cafeteria constitutionalist 😂😂😂🤪

No, it's not.  But stick to your cute little catch phrase if it makes you feel morally superior.

 

  • Haha 1
  • Disdain 1
  • Kill me now 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cathedral, Brebeuf teachers targeted by archdiocese are married to each other, lawyer says: https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/07/10/cathedral-teacher-fired-same-sex-marriage-sues-indianapolis-archdiocese-identifies-himself/1694669001/

Quote

Joshua Payne-Elliott, the teacher fired from Cathedral High School because of his same-sex marriage, is suing the Archdiocese of Indianapolis.

Until now, Payne-Elliott had not been identified publicly. His husband, Layton Payne-Elliott, is a teacher at Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School. They married in 2017. The couple have been the center of a fight between their schools and the church, which directed the schools to fire both men. 

Brebeuf refused to fire Layton Payne-Elliott, so the archdiocese stripped the school of its Catholic status. Cathedral fired Joshua Payne-Elliott to avoid the same fate. 

A lawsuit was filed Wednesday in Marion County, alleging that the archdiocese illegally interfered with Joshua Payne-Elliott's contractual and employment relationship with Cathedral High School, causing Cathedral to terminate him according to Kathleen DeLaney, his attorney. 

According to the filing, Cathedral renewed Payne-Elliott's annual teaching contract on May 21, 2019. But on June 23, 2019, Cathedral’s president told him that the archdiocese had “directed” Cathedral to terminate him and that Cathedral was following that directive.

“We hope that this case will put a stop to the targeting of LGBTQ employees and their families," Payne-Elliott said in a news release. 

Payne-Elliott has also filed charges of discrimination with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, asserting that the archdiocese discriminated on the basis of sexual orientation and retaliated against him for opposing sexual orientation discrimination.

Two guidance counselors, fired from Roncalli High School earlier this year over their same-sex marriages, have filed similar complaints with the EEOC against the archdiocese.

.....

Any speculation on what will happen with this lawsuit?

 

  • Disdain 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Muda69 said:

Cathedral, Brebeuf teachers targeted by archdiocese are married to each other, lawyer says: https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/07/10/cathedral-teacher-fired-same-sex-marriage-sues-indianapolis-archdiocese-identifies-himself/1694669001/

Any speculation on what will happen with this lawsuit?

 

An interesting aspect is that the dismissed teacher "settled" a claim against Cathedral before suing the archdiocese. Very interesting and unusual development which indicates to me that Cathedral is at least tacitly supporting the lawsuit against the archdiocese. https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/50811-fired-cathedral-teacher-settles-with-high-school-plans-to-sue-archdiocese?utm_source=il-daily&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2019-07-10

 

The teacher fired from Cathedral High School for being in a same-sex marriage sued the Archdiocese of Indianapolis in Marion Superior Court on Wednesday, alleging the church leadership illegally interfered with his contractual and employment relationship with the high school, which led to his termination June 23.

Joshua Payne-Elliott filed the lawsuit after he reached a confidential settlement with Cathedral on Tuesday. The agreement settled all legal claims against the school, including complaints arising from the termination of employment and allegations of a hostile work environment.

In addition to his state lawsuit, Payne-Elliott has filed charges of discrimination with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He asserts the archdiocese discriminated on the basis of sexual orientation and retaliated against him for opposing sexual-orientation discrimination.

Payne-Elliot’s attorney, Kathleen DeLaney, said once the EEOC makes a ruling, he intends to file a Title VII lawsuit against the Archdiocese in federal court.

“We intend to hold the Archdiocese accountable for violations of state and federal law,” DeLaney of DeLaney & DeLaney LLC, said.

Responding to a request for comment about the pending litigation, the Archdiocese indicated its actions are protected under religious liberty. 

“In the Archdiocese of Indianapolis’ Catholic schools, all teachers, school leaders and guidance counselors are ministers and witnesses of the faith, who are expected to uphold the teachings of the Church in their daily lives, both in and out of school,” the Archdiocese said in a statement. “Religious liberty, which is a hallmark of the U.S. Constitution and has been tested in the U.S. Supreme Court, acknowledges that the religious organizations may define what conduct is not acceptable and contrary to the teachings of its religion, for its school leaders, guidance counselors, teachers and other ministers of the faith.”

Payne-Elliott’s husband, Layton Payne-Elliott, teaches at Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School. The archdiocese, similar to its directive to Cathedral, directed Brebeuf to dismiss Layton Payne-Elliott. However, Brebeuf refused, and as a result, is no longer recognized as a Catholic institution by the archdiocese.

story continues below

The state lawsuit, Joshua Payne-Elliott v. Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Indianapolis, Inc., 49D01-1907-PL-027728, seeks punitive damages and compensatory damages for lost earnings, lost benefits and emotional distress among other things.

“We hope that this lawsuit will put a stop to the targeting of LGBTQ employees and their families,” Joshua Payne-Elliott said.

According to the complaint, Cathedral had already renewed Joshua Payne-Elliott’s teaching contract for the 2019-2020 school year when days later the Archdiocese told the school it had to enforce the morals clause language in its teacher contracts.

Cathedral president Robert Bridges then terminated Payne-Elliott’s employment. According to the lawsuit, Bridges told the teacher the school’s action “feels like with a gun to our head” because of the archdiocese’s directive. Payne-Elliott, the lawsuit states, was not fired for any performance-based issues.

The teacher alleges in his lawsuit the archdiocese intentionally interfered with his contractual and employment relationship with Cathedral. Namely, according to the complaint, the archdiocese demanded the school fire Payne-Elliott and threatened negative consequences if the school refused.

In a letter posted to its website June 23, Cathedral explained it was terminating the teacher after the Archdiocese threatened to no longer recognize the school as Catholic. Cathedral would have lost its ability to celebrate the Sacraments and its nonprofit status.

Both the teacher and the school were amicable toward each other in the announcement of the settlement. The teacher thanked Cathedral for the opportunities he had at the school and said he does not wish any harm to his former employer. Cathedral, in turn, thanked the teacher for his service, contributions and achievements.

“(My client) is pleased to have come to a confidential agreement with Cathedral High School,” DeLaney of DeLaney & DeLaney LLC, said. “He is looking forward to transitioning to a new teaching position and he hopes the attention brought by the recent actions of Archbishop (Charles) Thompson against the LGBTQ community will pressure the archdiocese to back off this witch hunt.”

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Bobref said:

And another shoe drops, as Roncalli gets sued for the same thing ... and by the same lawyers that are suing Cathedral. This is going to be very interesting to see how this works out.

https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/guidance-counselor-sues-roncalli-indianapolis-archdiocese?utm_source=il-daily&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2019-07-29

I would be curious if it could turn into a class action against the diocese? I know of others who have been through this without any publicity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Irishman said:

I would be curious if it could turn into a class action against the diocese? I know of others who have been through this without any publicity. 

Class action would be very difficult, since the damages would be so individualized for each class member.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brebeuf Jesuit appeals split with Catholic Church, barred from holding all-school Mass: https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2019/08/05/brebeuf-jesuit-appeals-split-catholic-church-barred-holding-mass/1920187001/

Quote

The Indianapolis high school stripped of its Catholic identity over the employment of a gay teacher in a same-sex marriage has taken its case to Rome.

Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory Academy is appealing the decision of the Indianapolis Archdiocese to no longer recognize the school as Catholic. Archbishop Charles C. Thompson issued a decree cutting ties with Brebeuf in June after the school refused to fire Layton Payne-Elliott.

A math teacher and Brebeuf graduate, Payne-Elliott is married to Joshua Payne-Elliott, the teacher fired from Cathedral High School at the behest of Thompson.

Brebeuf's appeal is being led by the Midwest Jesuits, the order of priests that sponsor the school and serve there. As is required by the Catholic Church, the order first requested that the archbishop reconsider his decision and rescind the decree. He declined to do so, according to a letter sent Sunday to members of the Brebeuf community. 

Now, the school has taken its case to the Congregation for Catholic Education in Rome. The hope is that the decree will be overruled and, in the meantime, that its effects will be suspended during the appeals process. It's unclear how long the appeal could take.

...

The Jesuits aren't giving up the fight.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...