Bash Riprock Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 24 minutes ago, temptation said: Just out of curiosity, how much of a competitive advantage do you believe this sign stealing "scandal" provided for Michigan? Not as much as they wanted when playing TCU last year in the CFP. https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2023/10/27/23934696/michigan-tcu-sign-stealing-college-football Not long after the CFP unveiled the 2022 semifinal matchups — Georgia vs. Ohio State and TCU vs. Michigan — the Horned Frogs staff began receiving phone calls from coaches across the country about what was a well-known fact in the Big Ten coaching community: that Michigan had an elaborate sign-stealing system. Many of those on the TCU staff were unaware before the calls. Coaches from several Big Ten schools, including Ohio State, informed TCU coaches of the scheme. “Literally everybody we talked to knew,” said one TCU coach. “They’d say, ‘Just so you know, they steal your signals and they’re going to have everything so you better change them.’” One coach told the staff that Michigan “has the most elaborate signal-stealing in the history of the world.” So what did TCU do? They put together a system of dummy signals and more, hoping to throw the Wolverines off. TCU mixed in some new signals with the old ones, instructing players to ignore the previous signals and call plays associated with the new signals. But that was not all the Horned Frogs did. They also would at times use two different signals, sending in one play with the new signs, “freezing” the play, and then signaling in a second, dummy play using the old signs. Players were instructed to run the play as first called with the new signs, but the hope was that Michigan would buy the second signals, the ones they potentially knew. They also tried sending in plays late in the play clock, to prevent Michigan from having enough time to adjust. The plan worked, in part, as TCU beat Michigan 51-45 to advance to the National Championship Game. As found by Dellenger: [TCU head coach Sonny] Dykes and staff crafted a game plan that, at least in part, used the dummy signals to fool coach Harbaugh and signaler Stalions. TCU scored first-half touchdowns on drives of 10 plays for 83 yards and 12 plays for 76 yards. The Frogs scored more points on Michigan than any team that season (51), eclipsing the next highest scoring opponent by 24 points. “The guy [Stalions] was wrong a couple of times,” one TCU staff member said. “We rewatched the TV version of the game. You can see him standing next to the defensive coordinator. He tells something to the coordinator and he points in the air to mean pass. You can see the playsheet he’s holding with our hand signs on them.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Footballking16 said: Why does that matter lol? If one team sends personnel to scout the other teams signals (by breaking the rules) and that teams opponent doesn't you tell me who has the upper hand? Let me guess, what the Astros did was no big deal either? Allow me to tell you why it matters…in true 2023 form Michigan has already lost the PR battle and in the minds of some has invalidated all of its accomplishments over the last 2+ years. Folks’ minds and the court of public opinion has already determined they are guilty and this is the most egregious sin in NCAA history and is something only folks at a Michigan have done/would do. Many coaches have spoken out and shrugged it off..likely because they have skeletons in their own closet and don’t want the NCAA knocking on their door. The sensationalized language and slow dripping of details of this story (controlled solely by the MSM and the “firm” appointed to the case) only adds to the outrage involved. It’s slander, pure and simple. Michigan may be guilty as hell and if so they deserve legitimate punishment…but usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle. SOMEHOW Ohio State insiders had a beat/the inside scoop on this story 3-4 weeks ago…makes you wonder. The story broke immediately when word got out that Harbaugh was had a contract extension on his desk, right before Michigan’s bye week yet they said they’ve known about this since 2021? C’mon. No amount of “sign stealing” causes what happened in the OSU games in 2021/2022… I know this is an unpopular opinion in 2023, but let’s allow the facts to play out. Edited October 30, 2023 by temptation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 1 minute ago, temptation said: Allow me to tell you why it matters…in true 2023 form Michigan has already lost the PR battle and in the minds of some has invalidated all of its accomplishments over the last 2+ years. Folks’ minds and the court of public opinion has already determined they are guilty and this is the most egregious sin in NCAA history and is something only folks at a Michigan have done/would do. Many coaches have spoken out and shrugged it off..likely because they have skeletons in their own closet and don’t want the NCAA knocking on their door. The sensationalized language and slow dripping of details of this story (controlled solely by the MSM and the “firm” appointed to the case) only adds to the outrage involved. It’s slander, pure and simple. Michigan may be guilty as hell and if so they deserve legitimate punishment…but usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle. SOMEHOW Ohio State insiders had a beat/the inside scoop on this story 3-4 months ago…makes you wonder. The story broke immediately when word got out that Harbaugh was had a contract extension on his desk, right before Michigan’s bye week yet they said they’ve known about this since 2021? C’mon. No amount of “sign stealing” causes what happened in the OSU games in 2021/2022… I know this is an unpopular opinion in 2023, but let’s allow the facts to play out. I don't care about any of the other noise or nonsense or any Ohio State pettiness. It's a pretty cut and dry case here, either Harbaugh: 1. Is behind a sophisticated sign stealing scheme that breaks NCAA rules 2. Or he isn't. It's one or the other here. This isn't Harbaugh's first run in with the NCAA and he's already under investigation for prior allegations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, temptation said: Allow me to tell you why it matters…in true 2023 form Michigan has already lost the PR battle and in the minds of some has invalidated all of its accomplishments over the last 2+ years. Folks’ minds and the court of public opinion has already determined they are guilty and this is the most egregious sin in NCAA history and is something only folks at a Michigan have done/would do. Many coaches have spoken out and shrugged it off..likely because they have skeletons in their own closet and don’t want the NCAA knocking on their door. The sensationalized language and slow dripping of details of this story (controlled solely by the MSM and the “firm” appointed to the case) only adds to the outrage involved. It’s slander, pure and simple. Michigan may be guilty as hell and if so they deserve legitimate punishment…but usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle. SOMEHOW Ohio State insiders had a beat/the inside scoop on this story 3-4 weeks ago…makes you wonder. The story broke immediately when word got out that Harbaugh was had a contract extension on his desk, right before Michigan’s bye week yet they said they’ve known about this since 2021? C’mon. No amount of “sign stealing” causes what happened in the OSU games in 2021/2022… I know this is an unpopular opinion in 2023, but let’s allow the facts to play out. Do you think TCU is lying from the article I just shared?? Pretty simple question. Do you think the article writer is embellishing what TCU stated? If so, why hasn't TCU attempted to correct the writer's comments? What would TCU's motive to be to going public with the comments AFTER they had beaten a non-conference team in the CFP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Bash Riprock said: Not as much as they wanted when playing TCU last year in the CFP. https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2023/10/27/23934696/michigan-tcu-sign-stealing-college-football Not long after the CFP unveiled the 2022 semifinal matchups — Georgia vs. Ohio State and TCU vs. Michigan — the Horned Frogs staff began receiving phone calls from coaches across the country about what was a well-known fact in the Big Ten coaching community: that Michigan had an elaborate sign-stealing system. Many of those on the TCU staff were unaware before the calls. Coaches from several Big Ten schools, including Ohio State, informed TCU coaches of the scheme. “Literally everybody we talked to knew,” said one TCU coach. “They’d say, ‘Just so you know, they steal your signals and they’re going to have everything so you better change them.’” One coach told the staff that Michigan “has the most elaborate signal-stealing in the history of the world.” So what did TCU do? They put together a system of dummy signals and more, hoping to throw the Wolverines off. TCU mixed in some new signals with the old ones, instructing players to ignore the previous signals and call plays associated with the new signals. But that was not all the Horned Frogs did. They also would at times use two different signals, sending in one play with the new signs, “freezing” the play, and then signaling in a second, dummy play using the old signs. Players were instructed to run the play as first called with the new signs, but the hope was that Michigan would buy the second signals, the ones they potentially knew. They also tried sending in plays late in the play clock, to prevent Michigan from having enough time to adjust. The plan worked, in part, as TCU beat Michigan 51-45 to advance to the National Championship Game. As found by Dellenger: [TCU head coach Sonny] Dykes and staff crafted a game plan that, at least in part, used the dummy signals to fool coach Harbaugh and signaler Stalions. TCU scored first-half touchdowns on drives of 10 plays for 83 yards and 12 plays for 76 yards. The Frogs scored more points on Michigan than any team that season (51), eclipsing the next highest scoring opponent by 24 points. “The guy [Stalions] was wrong a couple of times,” one TCU staff member said. “We rewatched the TV version of the game. You can see him standing next to the defensive coordinator. He tells something to the coordinator and he points in the air to mean pass. You can see the playsheet he’s holding with our hand signs on them.” Pretty funny how every B10 school had knowledge of the sign stealing scheme....except Michigan and Harbaugh https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2023/10/26/michigan-sign-stealing-updates-latest-news-ncaa-investigation-jim-harbaugh-team/71328356007/#:~:text=Jim Harbaugh denies knowledge of sign-stealing in Michigan program&text=On the same day as,this matter%2C" Harbaugh said. "I want to make it clear that I, and my staff, will fully cooperate with the investigation into this matter," Harbaugh said. "I do not have any knowledge or information regarding the University of Michigan football program illegally stealing signals, nor have I directed staff members or others to participate in an off-campus scouting assignment. I have no awareness of anyone on our staff having done that or having directed that action. This is what is going to ultimately do Harbaugh in; lying about petty offenses to the NCAA. Bruce Pearl received a show cause for lying to the NCAA about hosting a recruit at a backyard BBQ Kelvin Sampson received a show cause for lying about impermissible phone calls, a secondary violations. Jim Tressel lied about knowing his players received free tattoos from a booster. He was handed a show cause. Harbaugh seems to be going all-in playing dumb. Obviously he was on record saying this prior to Connor Scallions name ever becoming public so he'll recant his claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 37 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: I don't care about any of the other noise or nonsense or any Ohio State pettiness. It's a pretty cut and dry case here, either Harbaugh: 1. Is behind a sophisticated sign stealing scheme that breaks NCAA rules 2. Or he isn't. It's one or the other here. This isn't Harbaugh's first run in with the NCAA and he's already under investigation for prior allegations. And if found guilty he will pay the price...likely the equivalent of a level 3 violation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballking16 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, temptation said: And if found guilty he will pay the price...likely the equivalent of a level 3 violation... Is he going to cooperate or flat lie about it? That level 3 can turn to a level 1 very quickly. On October 19th he told the world he knew nothing about any sign stealing scheme. A day later Connor Scallions name was introduced to the world and was subsequently suspended for his role in the sign stealing scheme. Edited October 30, 2023 by Footballking16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 33 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: Do you think TCU is lying from the article I just shared?? Pretty simple question. Do you think the article writer is embellishing what TCU stated? If so, why hasn't TCU attempted to correct the writer's comments? What would TCU's motive to be to going public with the comments AFTER they had beaten a non-conference team in the CFP? Nope. They are telling the truth. Never debated that. Its impact on the eventual outcome of the game is what I will debate. I've spoken about the reason Michigan lost that game and it had nothing to do with sign stealing or being duped. Something just does not add up in this time line. November 2021: OSU states that they realized after the game that Michigan had stolen their signs so they vowed to not let it happen again. November 2022: OSU gets beaten worse in 2022 than in 2021. In the locker room at halftime, they know something is up and change things up only to get outscored in the 2nd half 28-3. December 2022: OSU reaches out to "warn" TCU about Michigan stealing signs and asks the NCAA is in game scouting at a CFP semi-final is permitted. Why in the hell were Sonny Dykes and TCU able to "dupe" Michigan with 3 weeks of preparation when OSU had a year to do so? That is an indictment of Ryan Day. 23 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: Pretty funny how every B10 school had knowledge of the sign stealing scheme....except Michigan and Harbaugh https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2023/10/26/michigan-sign-stealing-updates-latest-news-ncaa-investigation-jim-harbaugh-team/71328356007/#:~:text=Jim Harbaugh denies knowledge of sign-stealing in Michigan program&text=On the same day as,this matter%2C" Harbaugh said. "I want to make it clear that I, and my staff, will fully cooperate with the investigation into this matter," Harbaugh said. "I do not have any knowledge or information regarding the University of Michigan football program illegally stealing signals, nor have I directed staff members or others to participate in an off-campus scouting assignment. I have no awareness of anyone on our staff having done that or having directed that action. This is what is going to ultimately do Harbaugh in; lying about petty offenses to the NCAA. Bruce Pearl received a show cause for lying to the NCAA about hosting a recruit at a backyard BBQ Kelvin Sampson received a show cause for lying about impermissible phone calls, a secondary violations. Jim Tressel lied about knowing his players received free tattoos from a booster. He was handed a show cause. Harbaugh seems to be going all-in playing dumb. Obviously he was on record saying this prior to Connor Scallions name ever becoming public so he'll recant his claim. Now do the UNC fake classes scandal, the Tennessee handing out bags of cash scandal and the Kansas adidas scandal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, Footballking16 said: Is he going to cooperate or flat lie about it? That level 3 can turn to a level 1 very quickly. On October 19th he told the world he knew nothing about any sign stealing scheme. A day later Connor Scallions name was introduced to the world and was subsequently suspended for his role in the sign stealing scheme. He will cooperate. Even the WaPo article was hesitant to tie any member of the coaching staff to it. I just don't think the guy would be dumb enough to buy the tickets in his own name unless something was up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 4 hours ago, temptation said: Nope. They are telling the truth. Never debated that. Its impact on the eventual outcome of the game is what I will debate. I've spoken about the reason Michigan lost that game and it had nothing to do with sign stealing or being duped. Something just does not add up in this time line. November 2021: OSU states that they realized after the game that Michigan had stolen their signs so they vowed to not let it happen again. November 2022: OSU gets beaten worse in 2022 than in 2021. In the locker room at halftime, they know something is up and change things up only to get outscored in the 2nd half 28-3. December 2022: OSU reaches out to "warn" TCU about Michigan stealing signs and asks the NCAA is in game scouting at a CFP semi-final is permitted. Why in the hell were Sonny Dykes and TCU able to "dupe" Michigan with 3 weeks of preparation when OSU had a year to do so? That is an indictment of Ryan Day. Now do the UNC fake classes scandal, the Tennessee handing out bags of cash scandal and the Kansas adidas scandal... This isn't about Ryan Day's ability as a coach, or who's violations are bigger. Its about Jim Harbaugh's program at the University of Michigan. If proven accurate, that is the 2nd issue within a year. He has to be accountable for his program, pure and simple. The statements from TCU (if accurate) are very telling. You are simply a fan that is deflecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 10 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: This isn't about Ryan Day's ability as a coach, or who's violations are bigger. Its about Jim Harbaugh's program at the University of Michigan. If proven accurate, that is the 2nd issue within a year. He has to be accountable for his program, pure and simple. The statements from TCU (if accurate) are very telling. You are simply a fan that is deflecting. This is where you’re wrong. It’s more about Ryan Day than you think. Too much smoke and connections that can be made. The “firm” and MSM are controlling the narrative and spouting half truths and click bait daily. I maintain that if what is being claimed is true, Michigan/Harbaugh should pay the price and face the consequences but in just not there yet. Harbaugh (satellite camps, practice hours, etc) is the king of taking rules to the farthest point and finding loopholes. I would not be surprised if this is the case here once all of the facts come out: I’ll admit if I’m wrong but so expect level 3 violations, and a slap on the wrist…maybe more specifically for Harbaugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Wait until you hear about today’s news drop… Drip, drip, drip… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 Totally agree with Finebaum on this one.......... https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/38780754 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Nowlin Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said: You found it! Some folks about to be big time mad at some news I just heard… The contract that was “rescinded” wasn’t for long… Edited October 31, 2023 by temptation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) looks like CMU is now opening their own investigation into Stalions being on their sideline https://www.outkick.com/was-connor-stalions-on-the-central-michigan-sideline-school-begins-investigation/ Edited October 31, 2023 by Bash Riprock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Nowlin Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, temptation said: You found it! Some folks about to be big time mad at some news I just heard… The contract that was “rescinded” wasn’t for long… I can internet with the best of them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Nowlin Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 https://theathletic.com/5013443/2023/11/01/college-football-coaches-thoughts-sign-stealing-michigan/ 94% of college football coaches say Michigan crossed a line. What else do they say about sign-stealing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 30 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said: https://theathletic.com/5013443/2023/11/01/college-football-coaches-thoughts-sign-stealing-michigan/ 94% of college football coaches say Michigan crossed a line. What else do they say about sign-stealing? Only 17 of 50 coaches pulled have a "sign stealer?" C'mon. Put your name on it. That's what irks me about this entire thing. If you are man enough to have an opinion, sign it at the bottom. Kudos to those who have. Cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Nowlin Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 You don't get those in-depth articles and get coaches or athletes to speak freely in these scenarios, you know this, so you have to have security of speaking in the shadows I thought it was a good article because it got coaches to speak specifically on the situation without bias, just how they thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said: You don't get those in-depth articles and get coaches or athletes to speak freely in these scenarios, you know this, so you have to have security of speaking in the shadows I thought it was a good article because it got coaches to speak specifically on the situation without bias, just how they thought. Meanwhile, Michigan is prohibited by the NCAA by-laws to say ANYTHING about an ongoing investigation so the story is clickbait/one-sided. This is "journalism" in 2023. Presumed guilt and consistent hit jobs/death by 1000 cuts without all of the facts. Michigan is inching towards a new contract with Harbaugh (would have been done last week if it were not for "sign gate") so it doesn't seem they are too worried about any potential ramifications at this point. Edited November 1, 2023 by temptation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted November 1, 2023 Author Share Posted November 1, 2023 1 hour ago, temptation said: Michigan is inching towards a new contract with Harbaugh (would have been done last week if it were not for "sign gate") so it doesn't seem they are too worried about any potential ramifications at this point. they may need to hurry..... My guess is that he ends up taking the Pete Carroll road..... https://deadspin.com/back-in-black-jim-harbaugh-favorite-to-be-raiders-next-1850981114 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Riprock Posted November 1, 2023 Author Share Posted November 1, 2023 interesting article as to the direction of NCAA penalties today and in the future. It looks like bowl bans, etc. are well in the rear view mirror. https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/even-if-unaware-jim-harbaugh-can-be-held-responsible-by-ncaa-for-michigan-sign-stealing-scandal/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 56 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said: they may need to hurry..... My guess is that he ends up taking the Pete Carroll road..... https://deadspin.com/back-in-black-jim-harbaugh-favorite-to-be-raiders-next-1850981114 LOL, “Deadspin.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 33 minutes ago, temptation said: LOL, “Deadspin.” Hot Takes Baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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