Crown Point at Penn

[Boilernation]

1 hour ago, Boilernation said:

I believe Elklhart Central was the hold up last time around when the Duneland was courting Penn. IIRC, the DAC wanted Penn and Mishawaka but those 2 wouldn't come without Elkhart Central. Mishawaka is clearly not in the picture anymore and Penn shouldn't ride a sinking ship with Elkhart. IMO, the DAC should bring in Penn and throw a bone to either Elkhart or New Prairie. The Conference needed a shot in the arm when Hobart left and they got it with Crown Point and then later with Lake Central. It's time for a change. The DAC needs Penn and Penn needs the DAC. You could go East/West to balance it out in football and allow OOC scheduling. 

West:

• Merrillville
• Lake Central
• Crown Point
• Portage
• Chesterton

East: 

• Valpo
• Penn
• New Prairie/Elkhart
• Michigan City
• LaPorte

Schedule 2 Cross Over games and Conference placement games in Week 9 similiar to the Hoosier Conference. Penn is already on a majority of DAC schedules in all sports. The DAC and Penn can overcome the time zone differences. 

Edit: I forgot Crown Point joined before Hobart left. Lake Central finally received the invite they longed for once Hobart left.

[Boilernation]

42 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

@Boilernation I agree 100% with your thoughts. I think the East/West split is most do-able. I would like to see a more competitive split...Penn plays Valpo every year, so my thoughts would be:

Side A:

-Penn

-Elkhart/NP

-Merrillville 

-LaPorte

-Chesterton

 

Side B

-CP

-Michigan City

-Lake Central

-Valpo

-Portage

I think this is the most balanced approach when it comes to guaranteed yearly opponents.  Either way works. You still do the two crossover games that is 6 total leaving 3 non-conference games to be played. This allows Penn to keep Mishawaka, play a Fort Wayne school and pick up a school from around Indy....This improves Penn's schedule 100 fold in my opinion. 

I'm on board with whatever approach gets Penn into the DAC and I believe it's inevitable as the NIC is just not a viable option for Penn. Some of speculated Penn should just go Independent. I don't know about that. I've never been a HS AD, but I imagine it makes life at work a lot more stressful for an AD and his/her Admins to fill Independent schedules. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Boilernation

[BLACKGOLD2007]

4 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

I'm on board with whatever approach gets Penn into the DAC and I believe it's inevitable as the NIC is just not a viable option for Penn. Some of speculated Penn should just go Independent. I don't know about that. I've never been a HS AD, but I imagine it makes life at work a lot more stressful for an AD and his/her Admins to fill Independent schedules. 

I think if Penn were allowed to remain an NIC member in all sports but Football it would be less stress for the AD. But, I think there are some programs that would love to on board Penn as a long term opponent...Valpo is our most consistent rival right now. Even though Indy schools might not deem us a threat they would still play us. Fort Wayne schools want to play us. 

I think we could fill an independent schedule quickly. But, is it what is best right now for the program? Idk. I think playing schools with programs that are more your size on a weekly basis will help improve the trajectory of the program. 

[Boilernation]

2 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I think if Penn were allowed to remain an NIC member in all sports but Football it would be less stress for the AD. But, I think there are some programs that would love to on board Penn as a long term opponent...Valpo is our most consistent rival right now. Even though Indy schools might not deem us a threat they would still play us. Fort Wayne schools want to play us. 

I think we could fill an independent schedule quickly. But, is it what is best right now for the program? Idk. I think playing schools with programs that are more your size on a weekly basis will help improve the trajectory of the program. 

I would imagine the coaches of the Country Club sports, Baseball and Softball would prefer a DAC over NIC schedule. Basketball is iffy. Some of the South Bend schools compete very well with the DAC or are head and shoulders better (i.e. Washington WBB). Elkhart seems like a complete underachiver based on the success Central and Memorial boys had before the merger.

 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

5 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

I would imagine the coaches of the Country Club sports, Baseball and Softball would prefer a DAC over NIC schedule. Basketball is iffy. Some of the South Bend schools compete very well with the DAC or are head and shoulders better (i.e. Washington WBB). Elkhart seems like a complete underachiver based on the success Central and Memorial boys had before the merger.

 

Even if they went to the DAC the same scenario applies, the other NIC schools would still be willing to play Penn. Maybe not all, but St. Joe, Marian & Adams would be. 

Riley and Washington I think are ready for a Penn NIC divorce. NLC teams would still look to add Penn in their schedules as well. 

Either way, Penn I think is set when it comes to schedules. 

[PDB26]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

I agree 100% with your thoughts. I think the East/West split is most do-able. I would like to see a more competitive split...Penn plays Valpo every year, so my thoughts would be:

Side A:

-Penn

-Elkhart/NP

-Merrillville 

-LaPorte

-Chesterton

 

Side B

-CP

-Michigan City

-Lake Central

-Valpo

-Portage

I think this is the most balanced approach when it comes to guaranteed yearly opponents.  Either way works. You still do the two crossover games that is 6 total leaving 3 non-conference games to be played. This allows Penn to keep Mishawaka, play a Fort Wayne school and pick up a school from around Indy....This improves Penn's schedule 100 fold in my opinion. 

I came up with a split a couple of years ago designed to avoid the straight east/west division problem--I don't remember exactly which teams I grouped together--but it looked similar to what you have. You and @Boilernation pretty much have all of the details hammered out for how this type of thing could/should work. Elkhart is really the only problem at this point, since you need a tenth team to pull this off. NP would have to really punch up in the DAC, but it might be the least bad option for them if the NIC gets 86ed. 

I don't like independence for football because that it's more likely to complicate getting games for the freshman and jv teams or result in the freshman and jv teams playing basically the same type of schedule they play now. 

[Boilernation]

6 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

. NP would have to really punch up in the DAC, but it might be the least bad option for them if the NIC gets 86ed. 

I don't like independence for football because that it's more likely to complicate getting games for the freshman and jv teams or result in the freshman and jv teams playing basically the same type of schedule they play now. 

Yeah, New Prairie would likely be a better fit in the Northern Lakes or Northwest Crossroads if either would throw a life preserver their direction.

Great point on the Freshman and JV schedules as an independent.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

So, if Elkhart decides to go to the NLC and NP decides to also join the NLC (which are both possible),

The next best option could be going down to Jeff (which is a drive) or even Lowell or Hobart could be options....I know they are smaller, but they play some DAC schools on the regular. 

10 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

I don't like independence for football because that it's more likely to complicate getting games for the freshman and jv teams or result in the freshman and jv teams playing basically the same type of schedule they play now. 

The NIC struggles to find filler games right now for their JV and Freshman teams because some of the schools don't have the numbers to fill the rosters. 

It is a crap shoot in the NIC.

[PDB26]

2 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

Yeah, New Prairie would likely be a better fit in the Northern Lakes or Northwest Crossroads if either would throw a life preserver their direction.

Great point on the Freshman and JV schedules as an independent.

I think @npcougar15 posted about the rate that New Prairie's district is growing, or it's potential for growth. It would likely be a tough row to hoe in the DAC for the Cougars for at least a little while, but you'd think the arrangement would benefit them in the tournament. However, to your point, a spot in the Northwest Crossroads would almost certainly be the best fit--at least until the population explodes around New Carlisle and Rolling Prairie.

10 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

The next best option could be going down to Jeff (which is a drive) or even Lowell or Hobart could be options....I know they are smaller, but they play some DAC schools on the regular. 

Adding Jeff and Penn to the DAC would have to be the wildest arrangement in the state. Still better than being in the NIC. We really needed Elkhart to stay on its upward trajectory, and I'm sure there's no prying Mishawaka away from the NLC at this point.

[PDB26]

17 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

The NIC struggles to find filler games right now for their JV and Freshman teams because some of the schools don't have the numbers to fill the rosters. 

It is a crap shoot in the NIC.

I know. It's insane, it's an old problem that has just gotten worse. There were NIC schools that would often have to ask if they could have a few sophomores play in freshman games 15 years ago just to fill out a position group.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

6 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

I know. It's insane, it's an old problem that has just gotten worse. There were NIC schools that would often have to ask if they could have a few sophomores play in freshman games 15 years ago just to fill out a position group.

Didn't Penn play Mishawaka twice for like JV or Freshmen this year.....When I was in school we never had to double up with a school, but now with the program numbers of the SB schools dropping hard, there is just no sustainability. 

If one of the programs could maintain some sense of consistency it might slowly build excitement in the school and the community to get kids more interested in playing.  Hopefully Riley can start that cycle. Washington was that program for a few years. But, there is so much turnover in the coaching ranks it is hard to become consistent when a qb has his third head coach in four years. 

[PDB26]

4 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Didn't Penn play Mishawaka twice for like JV or Freshmen this year.....When I was in school we never had to double up with a school, but now with the program numbers of the SB schools dropping hard, there is just no sustainability. 

If one of the programs could maintain some sense of consistency it might slowly build excitement in the school and the community to get kids more interested in playing.  Hopefully Riley can start that cycle. Washington was that program for a few years. But, there is so much turnover in the coaching ranks it is hard to become consistent when a qb has his third head coach in four years. 

I'm pretty sure the Penn freshman have been playing Elkhart twice a year for maybe four or more years now. I wouldn't be surprised if they're getting multiple games against Mishawaka. I'd actually be in favor of scheduling multiples with a few competent programs. Alternatively, I've long thought the freshman and jv programs would benefit from intra squads more than they do from the majority of their schedules.

[Komets2727]

Penn 28 - Crown Point 21

[npcougar15]

Yeah, Not sure how attractive the DAC is for New Prairie at this point. In 10-20 years from now? might be a different story. NP already plays Laporte and Michigan City in every sport outside of football and dabbles with Valpo and Chesterton on occasion. Going head-to-head against the likes of Crown Point, Merriville, Valpo, Penn, Lake Central, etc. To try and win a conference title isn't too appealing. New Prairie's enrollment right now sits right around 950, on the smaller side of 4A. Compared to Northridge and Kokomo who have about 1500 each. NP is slowly growing, due to developments, and MC, LP and SB kids coming in from out of district. But like I said in another post there is a 3.5Billion battery plant being built as we speak just outside of New Carlisle and thousands of other acres that make up some of the most desirable land in the midwest for industrial development. The infrastructure is there for NP to explode in enrollment in the near future, we just aren't there yet. Right now, NP fits perfectly with the NCC or NLC. ideally, Wawasee would find a new home and NP could slide in and make a perfect fit. I think the NCC footprint is just a little too far west to make a viable home despite the institutional fit. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

38 minutes ago, npcougar15 said:

Yeah, Not sure how attractive the DAC is for New Prairie at this point. In 10-20 years from now? might be a different story. NP already plays Laporte and Michigan City in every sport outside of football and dabbles with Valpo and Chesterton on occasion. Going head-to-head against the likes of Crown Point, Merriville, Valpo, Penn, Lake Central, etc. To try and win a conference title isn't too appealing. New Prairie's enrollment right now sits right around 950, on the smaller side of 4A. Compared to Northridge and Kokomo who have about 1500 each. NP is slowly growing, due to developments, and MC, LP and SB kids coming in from out of district. But like I said in another post there is a 3.5Billion battery plant being built as we speak just outside of New Carlisle and thousands of other acres that make up some of the most desirable land in the midwest for industrial development. The infrastructure is there for NP to explode in enrollment in the near future, we just aren't there yet. Right now, NP fits perfectly with the NCC or NLC. ideally, Wawasee would find a new home and NP could slide in and make a perfect fit. I think the NCC footprint is just a little too far west to make a viable home despite the institutional fit. 

I hear you on the uphill battle you would be looking at year in and year out...This year minus the weird blunder in game 1...NP is better than Portage, LP, MC & LC....I think they would probably beat Chesterton this season. Valpo, CP & MVille would all be losses... However, you wouldn't be playing all three of those teams plus Penn each season. If you went with Boiler's set up, you would only see Mville and CP every couple of season, while you still get LP and MC. That also comes with Valpo and Penn yearly. But, NP in the middle of the DAC is a good finish.  It sets you up for a very strong run in the 4A ranks. You will have seasons where Valpo might blow you out the water, but just as the last 5 years have shown you can beat Penn on any given night and you have held your own against them. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

52 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

Penn 28 - Crown Point 21

Penn's passing game will have to be on point, if Penn cannot move the ball via the run through the middle of the D...it might be more like 21-20 or 24-21. 

[scarab527]

On 11/6/2023 at 10:53 AM, Boilernation said:

Was that from a defensive or offensive standpoint or all around? 

Offensively and Special Teams. 

Defensively they've been really stout all year and the only time they've looked vulnerable on that side of the ball was when Jeff burned them on some deep passes to start the game. Which brings me to my skepticism on that side of the ball. CP has been stifling against the run this year, but haven't played a single team that can throw the ball consistently. A lot easier to stop the run when you know its coming. 

Offensively they've gone extended periods of games where they haven't been able to move the ball well against mediocre defenses like LC and Portage. Special Teams wise they've struggled fielding kick offs/punts (way too many fumbles) and have had issues with onside kicks (they've let teams recover numerous this year).

They've skirted by with these issues against a lot of inferior competition. They won't be able to do so forever. 

[scarab527]

Penn/Elkhart to the DAC and the East/West split was discussed on here extensively a few years ago. I thought it made a lot of sense at the time but I'm not sure of that now. I think the DAC is pretty content with its current membership as of now. And I really think it would benefit the DAC teams and Penn/Elkhart more to start scheduling better OOC competition (FW, Indy, Chicago Burbs) than that configuration. 

[PDB26]

23 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Penn/Elkhart to the DAC and the East/West split was discussed on here extensively a few years ago. I thought it made a lot of sense at the time but I'm not sure of that now. I think the DAC is pretty content with its current membership as of now. And I really think it would benefit the DAC teams and Penn/Elkhart more to start scheduling better OOC competition (FW, Indy, Chicago Burbs) than that configuration. 

I agree that it likely makes less sense for the DAC, especially now that it seems like Elkhart would be a bottom-feeder in the conference.

Anything is an improvement for Penn. Elkhart probably needs the NLC if the NIC collapses.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 hour ago, scarab527 said:

Penn/Elkhart to the DAC and the East/West split was discussed on here extensively a few years ago. I thought it made a lot of sense at the time but I'm not sure of that now. I think the DAC is pretty content with its current membership as of now. And I really think it would benefit the DAC teams and Penn/Elkhart more to start scheduling better OOC competition (FW, Indy, Chicago Burbs) than that configuration. 

The only reason why this convo is currently happening is because the NIC decided to go to a 7 game conference schedule.  Which means Penn will have to decide between dropping 1 of the following three teams....Valpo, Mishawaka or Carmel...I bet it is Mishawaka. 

How about Penn drops Riley and Washington and we call it even...The problem with that scenario is the current staff holds a lot of value in winning conference championships. Which leads us (Penn faithful) to believe that we are stuck, playing a bad schedule and not getting to see what we really have as a team.

[GOLDRUSH1985]

3 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Penn's passing game will have to be on point, if Penn cannot move the ball via the run through the middle of the D...it might be more like 21-20 or 24-21. 

Like stated earlier, the Clark brothers are studs. If Penn tries to pound between the tackles , it could be a long night. They need to mix in some misdirection and screen passes. Basically they need to keep the CP defense off balance. Get McCullough out on the perimeter for RPO’s

[BLACKGOLD2007]

30 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Like stated earlier, the Clark brothers are studs. If Penn tries to pound between the tackles , it could be a long night. They need to mix in some misdirection and screen passes. Basically they need to keep the CP defense off balance. Get McCullough out on the perimeter for RPO’s

Are these guys interior Dlineman or LBs?

[WestfieldRocks]

8 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Look, to be fair and as even as possible.  Penn's trajectory has been downward over the last 5-6 seasons.  Last year was an improvement by record, but the Carroll result was typical of Penn's outcomes in the seasons prior. Penn this year is by far way better than last year. However, they have a tendency to come out flat, they did it in their biggest game in Cathedral (not saying they the game's result would have changed, but if they came out with some fire maybe it isn't as bad)....As a die hard Penn fan, hate the fact that we are not competitive with the teams down in Indy...to be honest, we haven't been for the most part since my freshman year in 03....We have had seasons where we beat Carmel...but look what happened at state the next week... Even if Penn beats CP, Westfield or HSE will likely handle Penn in the same manor that Cathedral did. 

CP, I take the I will believe it when I see stance. The beat good Valpo and M'ville teams, but overall the rest of their conference and schedule was down....that is not to the fault of CP. Penn has the same issue, the NIC is not good. (sorry co-NIC members) There is no benefit in the conference games....However, I think Penn would be better off in the DAC than the NIC...what does that say about the DAC? 

What I want from this game....Bobref probably hates me, but I want a ref crew that will call the game both ways, I want Penn to come out and execute on both sides of the ball. I want to see CP at their best, and I want the team that wins to go on and compete well in Semi-state.  I am tired of "always" getting whipped by schools from Indy...6A north (the true north, sounds like game of thrones) needs a state title....IDC who wins it CP, Penn Carroll, we need 1. 

 

If I read the schedules corerctly, Penn will be playing their third home tournament game and CP will have played their previous two tournament games at home. Since both Westfield and HSE will have only played one home game after this weekend, the winner of that game would stay home for the Semi State and the Penn/CP winner gets the long trip down here, correct? 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

2 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

If I read the schedules corerctly, Penn will be playing their third home tournament game and CP will have played their previous two tournament games at home. Since both Westfield and HSE will have only played one home game after this weekend, the winner of that game would stay home for the Semi State and the Penn/CP winner gets the long trip down here, correct? 

If Penn wins we play away no matter what. If CP wins and Westfield wins Westfield plays at CP, if HSE wins CP plays there.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

Looks like Westfield is a Penn fan this weekend, and HSE just needs to win.