Change in SF?

[Donnie Baker]

2 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Adams Central may be back-to-back runner-up but still moved up to 2A. Personally, I don't like this as I feel a school without a State Championship should not be bumped up.

Ask Linton-Stockton what THEY think?  This has been done before to a school.....

Should be a 'grace' allowed in these situations?  I think so!!!  

Liptons won

[gonzoron]

2 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Ask Linton-Stockton what THEY think? 

Wasn't Linton-Stockton moved up due to enrollment?

[Donnie Baker]

5 minutes ago, gonzoron said:

Wasn't Linton-Stockton moved up due to enrollment?

No but it kept them up next cycle 

[sr1]

21 hours ago, tango said:

I don't recall the point total change ever being mentioned by him or any reporter covering HS sports, but I must have missed it. If you have an article link handy, I'd love to see the article to learn the official rationale. 

https://sports.yahoo.com/8-proposals-ihsaa-board-directors-150044866.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

[tango]

4 hours ago, sr1 said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/8-proposals-ihsaa-board-directors-150044866.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Thank you sir.  

[BLACKGOLD2007]

18 hours ago, Bobref said:

both … and

I am good with that. 

[00NWP]

Out of curiosity...with Chatard moving up to 4A.  Will they move back to the South...or stay in the North?

[WestfieldRocks]

56 minutes ago, 00NWP said:

Out of curiosity...with Chatard moving up to 4A.  Will they move back to the South...or stay in the North?

Also out of curiosity, what's the best that Chatard has done when they were in 4A? It seems like they are there for the two year period, then drop back to 3A, where they dominate. So is there that much difference between 3A and 4A? Just asking.

[NLCTigerFan07]

44 minutes ago, 00NWP said:

Out of curiosity...with Chatard moving up to 4A.  Will they move back to the South...or stay in the North?

Would fully depend on where everything else lands for the other schools with enrollments.

Not sure what the bottom of 5A and top of 4A looks like concerning what teams might come down/go up with enrollments. These are the schools most likely involved one way or the other as they were within around 100 students last go around

5A 60 Michigan City 1,538
5A 61 Columbus East 1,534
5A 62 FW North Side 1,513
4A 63 Kokomo 1,510
4A 64 Greenfield-Central 1,474
4A 65 Huntington North 1,442
4A 66 Muncie Central 1,437
4A 67 Northridge 1,410

The majority of those are already NORTH of Chatard, so even if a school like Kokomo goes north, they would be replaced by another north school in FW North Side, for example. Therefore, doesn't seem like any sort of "southern" influx with this group that would potentially cause a more southern school to be bumped to the north in 4A

Looking at the reverse and bottom of 4A, top of 3A, it's basically the same thing. As well, with Evansville Memorial falling back to 3A next year, Chatard basically takes their spot, so that's a South for South swap.

If anyone would be moving to 4A North from 4A South next year, there are a few schools already more "north" than Chatard that would likely get moved. Muncie Central, Lebanon, and Pendleton Heights the most likely in my opinion. I couldn't imagine a 4A where Chatard was in the North and Muncie Central in the South, but they don't have the brightest working down there off Meridian Street.

[NLCTigerFan07]

2 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

Also out of curiosity, what's the best that Chatard has done when they were in 4A? It seems like they are there for the two year period, then drop back to 3A, where they dominate. So is there that much difference between 3A and 4A? Just asking.

It definitely feels like they've always dominated at the right years in 3A to not get bumped up as much as they should have. The best result they have had in 4A since SF has been introduced was a Sectional Championship in 2013.

Meanwhile, since that time, in 3A they have had 7 sectional championships, 6 regional championships, 5 semi-state championships, and 4 state championships (with 1 pending this weekend)

[Cappy]

34 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

It definitely feels like they've always dominated at the right years in 3A to not get bumped up as much as they should have. The best result they have had in 4A since SF has been introduced was a Sectional Championship in 2013.

Meanwhile, since that time, in 3A they have had 7 sectional championships, 6 regional championships, 5 semi-state championships, and 4 state championships (with 1 pending this weekend)

Am I wrong in thinking that they have only been moved up once and they lost to New Pal and Roncali those two years they spent in 4A

[oldtimeqb]

9 hours ago, sr1 said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/8-proposals-ihsaa-board-directors-150044866.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Thanks for finding that. Although that article focused a lot on the ‘fixed class’ set up for basketball, I can see why I missed it. 

I heard a lot about that proposal and subsequent vote-down and very little about the SF point change. 

[oldtimeqb]

1 hour ago, 00NWP said:

Out of curiosity...with Chatard moving up to 4A.  Will they move back to the South...or stay in the North?

South- because that is where Roncalli and Brebeuf are located. 

Plus 4A is skewed heavily north. Marion and Muncie Central have spent time in the ‘South’ sectionals over the last few cycles. I think Western (near Kokomo) might have also been south but I can’t remember. 

[tango]

9 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Thanks for finding that. Although that article focused a lot on the ‘fixed class’ set up for basketball, I can see why I missed it. 

I heard a lot about that proposal and subsequent vote-down and very little about the SF point change. 

Me too. I haven't seen any article after the IHSAA voted to change the point threshold for the SF.

[hhpatriot04]

48 minutes ago, tango said:

Me too. I haven't seen any article after the IHSAA voted to change the point threshold for the SF.

Not sure the IHSAA has any real obligation to publish its rules in media.

As long as the majority of their members pay dues, all we can do is smile and say, Thank You.

[tango]

4 minutes ago, hhpatriot04 said:

Not sure the IHSAA has any real obligation to publish its rules in media.

As long as the majority of their members pay dues, all we can do is smile and say, Thank You.

I'm just surprised it wasn't mentioned in the press release....

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/062223.pdf

[Indiana Native]

22 hours ago, Tippy said:

I considered it stupid a decade ago.  I said the SF was the dumbest thing the IHSAA had done since they went to class basketball.  I don't think the IHSAA wanted to have a SF, but they felt they had to because LCC and Luers had both just finished winning state 4 years in a row.  The way the SF is set up now, it could ruin your program.  I don't think it helped Pioneer very much.

Maybe not total ruin, but it certainly can impact kids transferring, fan support, finances and overall positive momentum in a program.

Transfers:  Why go here (or stay here) if we face a guaranteed buzz saw in sectionals or regionals.

Fan Support:  It may not be immediate, but after 2 years of early playoff losses many lose interest.  

Finances:  Less concessions and merchandise money with less games.  Less support as success diminishes.

Positive Momentum:  After consecutive years of deep playoff runs and/or a state title, momentum is at its peak.  Lose in the 1st or 2nd round 2 years in a row and by the time it resets the positive mojo just isn't what it was.  

If the idea behind SF is to offset open enrollment in public schools and/or no district map in private schools, the better equation would be evaluating rosters for organic enrollment.  Have AD's submit an affidavit showing where ROSTERED PLAYERS attended 7th and 8th grade, as well as any high school transfers.  If more than X number or Y percent is over a threshold, have a SF policy that deals with it.
 

[NLCTigerFan07]

4 hours ago, Cappy said:

Am I wrong in thinking that they have only been moved up once and they lost to New Pal and Roncali those two years they spent in 4A

I believe that is... kinda... correct. As I said, I think they somehow managed to only acquire points in 1 of 2 years in 3A that didn't warrant them moving up.

3A - 2011 - 4 points State Champs
3A - 2012 - 4 points State Champs -> move up to 4A
4A - 2013 - 1 point Sectional Champs
4A - 2014 - Sectional loss 0 points -> move back to 3A
3A - 2015 - 4 points State Champs
3A - 2016 - Sectional loss 0 points -> stay in 3A
3A - 2017 - 1 point Sectional Champs
3A - 2018 - 2 points Regional Champs -> stay in 3A
3A - 2019 - 4 points State Champs
3A - 2020 - 4 points State Champs -> move to 4A
4A - 2021 - Sectional loss 0 points -> IHSAA did some sort of weird thing and because enrollments during Covid 2020 school year were all out of whack. So they determined any schools playing UP that acquired at least 1 point during this season would STAY. Any schools that did not earn a point were returned to their lower class
3A - 2022 - 4 points State Champs
3A - 2023 - 3 point a a minimum -> move to 4A next season

So basically, their 2016 sectional championship loss to Danville prevented them from getting at least 2 points that season to bump up the next cycle. And then their 2021 sectional championship loss Roncalli prevented them from staying up in 4A these last 2 seasons.

[NLCTigerFan07]

6 minutes ago, NLCTigerFan07 said:

So basically, their 2016 sectional championship loss to Danville prevented them from getting at least 2 points that season to bump up the next cycle. And then their 2021 sectional championship loss Roncalli prevented them from staying up in 4A these last 2 seasons.

As well, their 2014 sectional loss to Roncalli prevented them from acquiring enough points to stay in 4A the next cylce.

Those 3 losses are all what prevented Chatard being in 4A more often over the last decade.

[hhpatriot04]

4 hours ago, tango said:

I'm just surprised it wasn't mentioned in the press release....

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/062223.pdf

If only all we entrepid sports journalists were deemed worthy and needed of covering sports again...

[slice60]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:48 PM, NLCTigerFan07 said:

4A - 2021 - Sectional loss 0 points -> IHSAA did some sort of weird thing and because enrollments during Covid 2020 school year were all out of whack. So they determined any schools playing UP that acquired at least 1 point during this season would STAY. Any schools that did not earn a point were returned to their lower class

 

You are exactly right. Due to the covid stuff, Chatard was only moved to 4A for the 2021 season instead of the usual 2-year window. I thought that was kind of BS because nobody benefited from the decision more than Chatard football as evidenced by their State title last year & likely State title this year.

[foxbat]

20 minutes ago, slice60 said:

You are exactly right. Due to the covid stuff, Chatard was only moved to 4A for the 2021 season instead of the usual 2-year window. I thought that was kind of BS because nobody benefited from the decision more than Chatard football as evidenced by their State title last year & likely State title this year.

Pioneer got kind of a reprieve as they moved down from 2A back to 1A a season early, but other than that, not much benefit.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

So, which teams are all moving up? I know Snider and Chatard are on the move.  

How is it then determined if a team moves down? enrollment or competitiveness? 

[foxbat]

3 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

So, which teams are all moving up? I know Snider and Chatard are on the move.  

How is it then determined if a team moves down? enrollment or competitiveness? 

Here's a quick synopsis on SF moves from another thread.  Ignore my inclusion of Brebeuf though as they moved up to 4A based on enrollment and not SF:

Enrollments will also end up playing some "havoc" with things too in terms of some natural movement as well as who moves down when someone is pushed up via SF. 

 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

4 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Here's a quick synopsis on SF moves from another thread.  Ignore my inclusion of Brebeuf though as they moved up to 4A based on enrollment and not SF:

Enrollments will also end up playing some "havoc" with things too in terms of some natural movement as well as who moves down when someone is pushed up via SF. 

 

Thank you! sorry I missed that post prior. 

I will be interesting to see how this plays out.