Why don't we go to 32 teams in all classes and play a 10th regular season game?

[RegionFBFan]

25 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Ok.  Let's make this work.  

Scrimmage Week is Game 1 and Weeks 1-9 make a 10 game regular season. 

You MUST win 2 games against another IHSAA school to qualify.  If you can't get 2 wins out of 10 games then just move on to basketball.  For reference in 2023 there were 47 teams with 10 or 9 losses.  A 9 loss team either finished 1-8 and lost Round 1 or got lucky with a draw finished 2-9 or 3-9.  But to get 9 losses, you had to be 1-8 after week 9. 

Last year that means 315 - 47 = 268 "qualifiers" for this set up.  Even could allow a few more teams that scheduled wins, because the magic number would be 272.

Top 32 in enrollment = 6A tournament

Remaining 240 qualifiers split into 5 even classes of 48.  Seeded obviously with the top 16 in each class getting a bye and let a bunch of 2 & 3 win teams face each other round 1 (week 10 of current schedule).  Week 11 is round 2, each class has 32 teams and the 6 classes will still crown champs Thanksgiving weekend in LOS.

If I were omnipotent commissioner for a day, this is what I set up. 

 

Great start! Questions and comments:

1. 5 evenly split brackets - what is the spread from largest to smallest in each bracket in this scenario? It seems like the large school spread which is bad today gets worse.

2. What would you use to determine seeding? I agree with seeding.

3. Agree LOS is the only location for finals. Removes weather and turf from equation.

4. I would add Neutral site locations for Semi State. Prefer regionals at neutral sites but might be asking too much.

 

[Titan32]

46 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Ok.  Let's make this work.  

Scrimmage Week is Game 1 and Weeks 1-9 make a 10 game regular season. 

You MUST win 2 games against another IHSAA school to qualify.  If you can't get 2 wins out of 10 games then just move on to basketball.  For reference in 2023 there were 47 teams with 10 or 9 losses.  A 9 loss team either finished 1-8 and lost Round 1 or got lucky with a draw finished 2-9 or 3-9.  But to get 9 losses, you had to be 1-8 after week 9. 

Last year that means 315 - 47 = 268 "qualifiers" for this set up.  Even could allow a few more teams that scheduled wins, because the magic number would be 272.

Top 32 in enrollment = 6A tournament

Remaining 240 qualifiers split into 5 even classes of 48.  Seeded obviously with the top 16 in each class getting a bye and let a bunch of 2 & 3 win teams face each other round 1 (week 10 of current schedule).  Week 11 is round 2, each class has 32 teams and the 6 classes will still crown champs Thanksgiving weekend in LOS.

If I were omnipotent commissioner for a day, this is what I set up. 

 

Well said....I was actually working LOL (hard to believe I know) and didn't want to think it through but this is close to what I was conceptualizing.  Thanks!

[BTF]

3 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Come on....could you imagine running onto Notre Dame Stadium's turf as a Senior at list any 1A or 2A school for your final game of football...

I know the post said 6A, but I think it would be interesting for any class.

I love Notre Dame as much as anyone, but high school championships are meant to be played inside :). Let's do semi-state in South Bend, I'm down for that. 

[Frozen Tundra]

3 hours ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

You would almost have to move games to Thursday or to Sunday.

This means each weekend the State Finals occur the Colts will not be able to host a Thanksgiving Day game (if the games start Thursday) or would need to have a bye or play away on the Sunday after (if the games move to Sunday).

Thursday games:  1pm - 4pm - 7pm

Friday: 1pm - 4pm - 7pm

Saturday: 10am - 1pm - 4pm - 7pm

or 

Friday games: 10am - 1pm -4pm - 7pm 

Saturday: 10am - 1pm - 4pm - 7pm

Sunday games: Noon - 3:30pm. (this could even move forward to 10am so that players can get home in time for school on Monday).

 

Two problems with that:

1. Most people aren’t going to want to give up their Thanksgiving to attend, work, coach, or play a high school football game.

2. Sundays don’t work because of religious reasons. I don’t think the parochial schools would appreciate Sunday games. There are also some kids and families that wouldn’t like it even if they weren’t affiliated with a parochial school.

[Bobref]

19 hours ago, Punttheball said:

I don't think private schools are allowed into their state playoffs.

Private schools won the 5A, 7A, and 8A football championships in Illinois in 2023.

[btownqbcoach1]

I can't entertain the idea of "not everyone gets in the playoffs". One I don't think we'll ever see that happen here and two... I think all kids should get to play in the sectional.  I don't think we accomplish anything by not allowing certain teams in.  

[Punttheball]

6 minutes ago, Bobref said:

Private schools won the 5A, 7A, and 8A football championships in Illinois in 2023.

Is there a different division for the Chicago city schools?

[btownqbcoach1]

@BTF what was your confusion? Big fan of scrimmages? 

Edited February 15 by btownqbcoach1

[BTF]

17 minutes ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

@BTF what was your confusion? Big fan of scrimmages? 

As a fan, I don't care one way or another. I would imagine, as a coach, you're probably in the minority with regard to eliminating the scrimmage. I'm guessing most coaches would rather knock heads against another team in a practice game before kicking off when it actually counts. 

[JQWL]

3 minutes ago, BTF said:

As a fan, I don't care one way or another. I would imagine, as a coach, you're probably in the minority with regard to eliminating the scrimmage. I'm guessing most coaches would rather knock heads against another team in a practice game before kicking off when it actually counts. 

I don't think that's true. I haven't spoken to a coach that feels the official scrimmage is as important as it used to be with the current summer guidelines.

[btownqbcoach1]

5 minutes ago, BTF said:

As a fan, I don't care one way or another. I would imagine, as a coach, you're probably in the minority with regard to eliminating the scrimmage. I'm guessing most coaches would rather knock heads against another team in a practice game before kicking off when it actually counts. 

I don't think that is true. 

And to your last sentence-- at camp we get 4 whole practices against other teams. It was all filmed-- counting 7 on 7 reps+11 on 11 reps-- We were probably around 300-350 reps against other teams. That doesn't count our other 2 competition days. 

Now-- I would also be fine with keeping the scrimmage against an opponent in week 1 of regular practice and eliminating the intrasquad scrimmage, that's fine with me.  

[Impartial_Observer]

16 minutes ago, BTF said:

As a fan, I don't care one way or another. I would imagine, as a coach, you're probably in the minority with regard to eliminating the scrimmage. I'm guessing most coaches would rather knock heads against another team in a practice game before kicking off when it actually counts. 

It was always my understanding that when they changed to the current format, the scrimmage was a concession. The plan was eventually it would go away and we would be back to a 10 game schedule. Then the argument was, everyone gets in we’re already playing 10 games. I tend to agree with @JQWLthe scrimmage has outlived its usefulness, given the current summer rules. That being said man, starting games second Friday in August seems early. 

[FarmerFran]

24 minutes ago, BTF said:

As a fan, I don't care one way or another. I would imagine, as a coach, you're probably in the minority with regard to eliminating the scrimmage. I'm guessing most coaches would rather knock heads against another team in a practice game before kicking off when it actually counts. 

I'd be fine removing the scrimmage. With the number of pro pad scrimmages the IHSAA allows each summer, I feel like the kids are generally pretty ready to go once the regular season starts rolling.

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

I don't think that is true. 

And to your last sentence-- at camp we get 4 whole practices against other teams. It was all filmed-- counting 7 on 7 reps+11 on 11 reps-- We were probably around 300-350 reps against other teams. That doesn't count our other 2 competition days. 

Now-- I would also be fine with keeping the scrimmage against an opponent in week 1 of regular practice and eliminating the intrasquad scrimmage, that's fine with me.  

Good point. Things are certainly different now than what they used to be. If I'm doing the math right, doesn't the risk for a player getting injured before the postseason go up approximately 10% by adding another game? Is it really worth it? 

[First_Backer_Inside]

2 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good point. Things are certainly different now than what they used to be. If I'm doing the math right, doesn't the risk for a player getting injured before the postseason go up approximately 10% by adding another game? Is it really worth it? 

Yes, but I mean its a part of the game. We've had kids get injured in the scrimmage game. Heck when I played we went live in practice all the time. We spent more time beaten the snot out of each other and getting injured during practice than we did in games. Even going pro pads and thudding in practices nowadays there are still freak accidents that happen. I understand where you are coming from because it will be more wear and tear on the kids bodies, but injuries happen all the time, it sucks, but it happens.

[btownqbcoach1]

9 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good point. Things are certainly different now than what they used to be. If I'm doing the math right, doesn't the risk for a player getting injured before the postseason go up approximately 10% by adding another game? Is it really worth it? 

Well-- yes, it does. 

I would argue you have 10% more fun 😉 and yes, imo, it is worth it. 

But-- they still get 40 reps or so even in an intrasquad scrimmage. 

Edited February 15 by btownqbcoach1

[BTF]

16 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

Yes, but I mean its a part of the game. We've had kids get injured in the scrimmage game. Heck when I played we went live in practice all the time. We spent more time beaten the snot out of each other and getting injured during practice than we did in games. Even going pro pads and thudding in practices nowadays there are still freak accidents that happen. I understand where you are coming from because it will be more wear and tear on the kids bodies, but injuries happen all the time, it sucks, but it happens.

That's also a good point. As a fan, I'd take the 10th game in a heartbeat since the season always seems to go by quickly. I'm sure the AD's wouldn't mine the extra revenue that a 10th game would provide. 

[JQWL]

27 minutes ago, BTF said:

Good point. Things are certainly different now than what they used to be. If I'm doing the math right, doesn't the risk for a player getting injured before the postseason go up approximately 10% by adding another game? Is it really worth it? 

I don't think it does. The risk of injury in a scrimmage is already present. So the risk is essentially the same. (Maybe the increased risk would be in a scrimmage, you can play in fewer snaps than an actual game.) The only difference is, you could get injured in a glorified practice game or an actual game.

[Coach Edwards]

22 hours ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

I would--- dump the scrimmage week and make that week 1, and yes, move to a 10 game regular season. 

With the ability to do scrimmages during the summer this would make sense when trying to get a 10 game regular season.

[qbcoach13]

8 Class System. Week 1 starts on current scrimmage week. Not all teams have to start week 1. Rolling bye weeks to cut down on number of official crews needed every week.  Cuts down on enrollment gaps. 

8A
1	Carmel	5200
2	Ben Davis	4567
3	Warren Central	3748
4	Fishers	3664
5	North Central (Indpls.)	3616
6	Penn	3480
7	Avon	3476
8	Hamilton Southeastern	3442
9	Franklin Central	3362
10	Brownsburg	3297
11	Noblesville	3208
12	Pike	3192
13	Elkhart	3166
14	Crown Point	2978
15	Lake Central	2961
16	Center Grove	2893
7A
1	Lawrence North	2817
2	Westfield	2789
3	Carroll (Fort Wayne)	2569
4	Indianapolis Arsenal Tech	2500
5	Homestead	2408
6	Lawrence Central	2404
7	Southport	2368
8	Perry Meridian	2359
9	Zionsville	2309
10	Columbus North	2267
11	Portage	2170
12	Harrison (West Lafayette)	2169
13	Fort Wayne Northrop	2158
14	Jeffersonville	2141
15	Fort Wayne Snider	1915
16	Indianapolis Cathedral	1172
6A
1	Valparaiso	2140
2	Warsaw	2108
3	Whiteland	2074
4	South Bend Adams	2062
5	Decatur Central	2050
6	Merrillville	2050
7	Lafayette Jefferson	2034
8	Goshen	2006
9	Chesterton	1980
10	Castle	1965
11	Hammond Central	1923
12	Floyd Central	1823
13	New Albany	1814
14	LaPorte	1812
15	McCutcheon	1786
16	Plainfield	1773
17	Evansville North	1751
18	Concord	1730
19	Anderson	1722
20	Seymour	1719
21	Bloomington South	1681
22	Terre Haute South	1609
23	Franklin Community	1590
24	Bloomington North	1589
25	Hammond Morton	1534
26	Michigan City	1520
27	Columbus East	1518
28	Munster	1514
29	Terre Haute North	1467
30	Kokomo	1465
31	Fort Wayne North Side	1460
32	East Central	1241
5A
1	Fort Wayne South Side	1459
2	Mt Vernon (Fortville)	1455
3	Greenfield-Central	1430
4	Mishawaka	1422
5	Fort Wayne Wayne	1416
6	Mooresville	1398
7	Northridge	1393
8	Huntington North	1382
9	Evansville Reitz	1378
10	Pendleton Heights	1353
11	Muncie Central	1332
12	Richmond	1320
13	Martinsville	1315
14	Hobart	1298
15	South Bend Riley	1298
16	Evansville Harrison	1293
17	Bedford-North Lawrence	1242
18	Logansport	1226
19	Greenwood	1211
20	New Palestine	1209
21	Indianapolis Crispus Attucks	1170
22	Jennings County	1169
23	Columbia City	1162
24	Indianapolis Shortridge	1159
25	Evansville Central	1131
26	Shelbyville	1093
27	Jasper	1092
28	Indianapolis Roncalli	1082
29	New Haven	1068
30	Plymouth	1054
31	Marion	1045
32	DeKalb	1044
4A
1	Lebanon	1033
2	East Chicago Central	1009
3	Gary West Side	995
4	East Noble	989
5	Kankakee Valley	989
6	Lowell	985
7	Highland	977
8	New Prairie	970
9	Silver Creek	943
10	Connersville	930
11	Fort Wayne Bishop Dwenger	917
12	Frankfort	901
13	Leo	900
14	Wawasee	895
15	Northview	894
16	Beech Grove	892
17	South Bend Washington	886
18	Boonville	884
19	NorthWood	869
20	Evansville Bosse	863
21	Charlestown	854
22	South Bend Saint Joseph	849
23	Culver Academies	832
24	Brebeuf Jesuit	829
25	New Castle	824
26	Danville	820
27	Hanover Central	817
28	Yorktown	812
29	Washington	810
30	Guerin Catholic	800
31	Jay County	800
32	Indianapolis Bishop Chatard	730

3A
1	Delta	798
2	Western	791
3	Mississinewa	783
4	Gibson Southern	771
5	Edgewood	761
6	Madison	760
7	Corydon Central	754
8	West Lafayette	750
9	Norwell	745
10	Angola	741
11	Mishawaka Marian	735
12	Lawrenceburg	726
13	Scottsburg	726
14	West Noble	718
15	Vincennes Lincoln	711
16	Crawfordsville	710
17	Hamilton Heights	687
18	Batesville	670
19	Twin Lakes	663
20	Greensburg	662
21	Franklin County	650
22	Owen Valley	650
23	Rushville	645
24	South Dearborn	645
25	Griffith	637
26	Indian Creek	636
27	Heritage Hills	635
28	John Glenn	633
29	North Harrison	629
30	Fort Wayne Concordia	623
31	Evansville Memorial	617
32	Hammond Bishop Noll	617
33	Indianapolis Washington	617
34	Heritage	616
35	Calumet	611
36	Bellmont	610
37	Tri-West	606
38	Maconaquah	604
39	Princeton	600
40	Peru	588
41	Purdue Polytechnic	578
42	Southridge	576
43	Mount Vernon (Posey)	574
44	Speedway	571
45	Fairfield	570
46	River Forest	567
47	Garrett	556
48	Northwestern	554
49	Cascade	546
50	Tippecanoe Valley	543
51	Lakeland	540
52	Jimtown	538
53	Oak Hill	538
54	Fort Wayne Bishop Luers	532
55	Frankton	531
56	Evansville Mater Dei	520
57	Knox	520
58	West Vigo	518
59	Woodlan	518
60	Benton Central	513
61	North Montgomery	513
62	Western Boone	513
2A
1	Centerville	512
2	Bluffton	507
3	Heritage Christian	507
4	Monrovia	503
5	Sullivan	503
6	Eastbrook	501
7	Eastern (Greentown)	499
8	Indianapolis Cardinal Ritter	498
9	Greencastle	495
10	Salem	494
11	Wabash	492
12	Blackford	490
13	Brown County	488
14	Manchester	475
15	Pike Central	474
16	Rochester	473
17	Bremen	471
18	Brownstown Central	469
19	Alexandria	468
20	South Vermillion	468
21	Triton Central	468
22	Boone Grove	466
23	Lapel	466
24	Switzerland County	464
25	Andrean	455
26	Tipton	454
27	Southmont	453
28	Indianapolis Scecina	448
29	Rensselaer Central	447
30	North Posey	442
31	North Putnam	432
32	Mitchell	430
33	Northeastern	423
34	Whiting	422
35	Prairie Heights	421
36	Park Tudor	421
37	Christel House Manual	420
38	Delphi	417
39	Wheeler	417
40	Elwood	410
41	Winchester	408
42	Adams Central	408
43	Tell City	403
44	Shenandoah	400
45	Paoli	396
46	Lake Station Edison	391
47	Union County	391
48	Eastern (Pekin)	389
49	Lewis Cass	389
50	Whitko	389
51	Linton-Stockton	387
52	Seeger	386
53	Central Noble	385
54	Clarksville	385
55	Eastside	384
56	Covenant Christian (Indpls.)	383
57	Crawford County	379
58	Churubusco	378
59	Eastern Hancock	377
60	Perry Central	377
61	Lafayette Central Catholic	302
62	Indianapolis Lutheran	267
1a
1	LaVille	373
2	Providence	371
3	Taylor	366
4	South Putnam	363
5	Winamac	360
6	South Adams	357
7	Parke Heritage	354
8	Forest Park	353
9	Hagerstown	352
10	South Spencer	352
11	Eastern Greene	351
12	North Knox	349
13	Madison-Grant	336
14	Sheridan	336
15	Clinton Prairie	327
16	Carroll (Flora)	321
17	Riverton Parke	320
18	North Newton	319
19	South Central (Union Mills)	318
20	Knightstown	316
21	Milan	315
22	North Decatur	314
23	North Judson	308
24	Monroe Central	301
25	Northfield	296
26	Fountain Central	289
27	Anderson Prep Academy	288
28	Pioneer	286
29	Tecumseh	286
30	Cloverdale	283
31	Fremont	283
32	Covington	281
33	Bowman Academy	277
34	West Washington	277
35	Triton	274
36	North Daviess	273
37	Fort Wayne Blackhawk Christian	270
38	Clinton Central	268
39	Springs Valley	266
40	South Decatur	265
41	North White	264
42	North Miami	263
43	Southwood	263
44	North Central (Farmersburg)	257
45	Tri	256
46	Southern Wells	252
47	Wes-Del	248
48	Culver	246
49	Union City	244
50	Caston	241
51	South Newton	241
52	Cambridge City Lincoln	234
53	Tri Central	232
54	Edinburgh	227
55	Greenwood Christian	222
56	Tri-County	220
57	North Vermillion	218
58	West Central	209
59	Indianapolis Tindley	202
60	Frontier	180
61	Attica	160

[snrmike]

20 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

First - Illinois has 526 football playing schools (according to CalPreps).  Only 256 make their playoffs (8 classes of 32)

Second - P/P do play in the IHSA Playoffs (not the 'tournament' as the IHSAA calls it.)  Teams without defined boundaries - like P/P's, Charters, and the like get hit with a multiplier which is 1.65

You arte correct about Illinois.  Here's a link to the Terms and Conditions for the footbsll playoffs in the IHSA>
https://www.ihsa.org/documents/fb/2023-24/t-and-cs.pdf

20 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

First - Illinois has 526 football playing schools (according to CalPreps).  Only 256 make their playoffs (8 classes of 32)

Second - P/P do play in the IHSA Playoffs (not the 'tournament' as the IHSAA calls it.)  Teams without defined boundaries - like P/P's, Charters, and the like get hit with a multiplier which is 1.65

You are correct about Illinois.  Here's a link to the Terms and Conditions for the footbsll playoffs in the IHSA>
https://www.ihsa.org/documents/fb/2023-24/t-and-cs.pdf

Edited February 15 by snrmike

[foxbat]

17 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

Two problems with that:

1. Most people aren’t going to want to give up their Thanksgiving to attend, work, coach, or play a high school football game.

2. Sundays don’t work because of religious reasons. I don’t think the parochial schools would appreciate Sunday games. There are also some kids and families that wouldn’t like it even if they weren’t affiliated with a parochial school.

Officially, probably not, but a large number of p/p students are Catholic and we Catholics have vigil/Saturday Masses for weekend obligations.  Here in Lafayette/West Lafayette you can catch Mass at 7:00 pm and 9:00 pm on Sundays, during the school year, at St. Tom's.  I don't think it would be as much an issue for a single weekend; especially if there's a rotation of classes on Sunday.

[tango]

6 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Officially, probably not, but a large number of p/p students are Catholic and we Catholics have vigil/Saturday Masses for weekend obligations.  Here in Lafayette/West Lafayette you can catch Mass at 7:00 pm and 9:00 pm on Sundays, during the school year, at St. Tom's.  I don't think it would be as much an issue for a single weekend; especially if there's a rotation of classes on Sunday.

Rule 9-13 No Sunday Athletic Participation There shall be no interschool athletic Contests, school Practices or school sponsored Camps/ Clinics held on Sunday. Calling One (1) or more team members together on Sunday for studying scouting reports, viewing films of games, any kind of participation, etc. will be considered a violation of this rule.

 

[foxbat]

4 minutes ago, tango said:

Rule 9-13 No Sunday Athletic Participation There shall be no interschool athletic Contests, school Practices or school sponsored Camps/ Clinics held on Sunday. Calling One (1) or more team members together on Sunday for studying scouting reports, viewing films of games, any kind of participation, etc. will be considered a violation of this rule.

 

Yeah, but these are the same guys that had four points to stay up, then two, now three ... what's one Sunday among friends?  Or the IHSAA? 🙂

[Trojanmp52]

I post this a few backs the dates are from thenso I apologize since they do not add up to last year but I think most of you can get the giff of it. 
 

the more class you add the more water down everything becomes 

 

First change i would make is  to the last week of July.  I would make this  camp week where schools could have a mini camp.  They could hold it during  4 of the 5 days of the week.  I  Would make Saturday and no contact day so the kids and families  could have the last weekend before the season starts to do family stuff.  During your camp you can have  up to  3 full pads pracites  during the 4 days  the rest  would be pro pads.  It would be like the old 2adays we had  back in the day. The first Monday in Aug.  would be the  start of normal football operations    The reason for this is to make more fair across the board some since not all schools start at the same time. 

2nd change would be to move the start of the games up a week. For example  this year Aug 7 would be the scrimmage and Aug 13 would week one.  By doing this you would be doing two things one is give 5A and 6A  the same amount of games played  as the rest of the class, the second thing it would do is give the lower class a bye week.  There is a lot ways to this but i think the easiest way is to make the  bye  week 10 right  before the playoffs start.