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New Transgender vs. Religious Freedom Case from Brownsburg, IN

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22 minutes ago, DanteEstonia said:

If it’s anything like where I work, it shows on the roster if a student is transgender; it has the new name in parentheses.

Roncali fired a teacher in a manner inconsistent with Indiana law.

Thank you. 

Common sense says, go by what the registration says. 

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1 hour ago, DanteEstonia said:

 

Roncali fired a teacher in a manner inconsistent with Indiana law.

I guess we shall see if Roncalli has indeed did anything unlawful.  This is not a new issue.

https://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2012/01/11/teachers-at-religious-schools-not-protected-by-discrimination-laws/

Thanks for sharing the Indiana law, which means this article is incorrect

https://www.educationnext.org/private-schools-allowed-discriminate/

Sexual Orientation

Congress has never enacted civil rights protections based on sexual orientation. As a result, private schools are not required to admit LGBT students, or the children of LGBT parents, or hire LGBT teachers, at least under federal law. States can institute their own protections, but Maryland is the only state that has prohibited private schools participating in school choice programs from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.

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4 hours ago, DannEllenwood said:

Thank you. 

Common sense says, go by what the registration says. 

So if a kid wants to be called Mike or Bob, stick to Michael or Robert no matter what? I had a student last year with a foreign name. His friends called him Steve though...have for years. So, go against that?  Had another student who was a 3rd ( gpa was senior, dad was junior). The common name they had been called going back to gpa was Bob. That name is not on the record. If the students wants to go by Bob, and I refuse, it creates more problems than it is worth. I have had multiple transgender students the last few years; great kids as well, and solid students. It is no issue for me to call them by the name they want. Again, I am not willing to insert my personal beliefs where they do not belong. 

As far as this case goes, the teacher was even told by his association and the ISTA legal rep that he had no leg to stand on in this case. 

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9 hours ago, Irishman said:

So if a kid wants to be called Mike or Bob, stick to Michael or Robert no matter what? I had a student last year with a foreign name. His friends called him Steve though...have for years. So, go against that?  Had another student who was a 3rd ( gpa was senior, dad was junior). The common name they had been called going back to gpa was Bob. That name is not on the record. If the students wants to go by Bob, and I refuse, it creates more problems than it is worth. I have had multiple transgender students the last few years; great kids as well, and solid students. It is no issue for me to call them by the name they want. Again, I am not willing to insert my personal beliefs where they do not belong. 

As far as this case goes, the teacher was even told by his association and the ISTA legal rep that he had no leg to stand on in this case. 

In the religious mans instance, where all of this could have simply (and I can not stress this enough), SIMPLY be averted, yep. 

Again. Common sense is dead. 

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28 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

In the religious mans instance, where all of this could have simply (and I can not stress this enough), SIMPLY be averted, yep. 

Again. Common sense is dead. 

I agree that it could have easily been avoided, but your comment here contradicts the one I replied to above. 

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1 hour ago, Irishman said:

I agree that it could have easily been avoided, but your comment here contradicts the one I replied to above. 

How so?  

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3 hours ago, DannEllenwood said:

How so?  

Your first comment was to stick to what was on the registration. I cited several examples where the name on the registration may not be the name a person goes by. I would say that the teacher at Brownsburg made a decision to stick to the name on the registration, for certain student(s) only, of course. So the adherence to the name on the registration is not really the simplest way to avoid any problems. Common sense would say live and let live, right? Or is it to let your personal religious views override that?  

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Stick to the registration name for all kids. This way everyone is happy. Hence. Common sense. 

 

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41 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

Stick to the registration name for all kids. This way everyone is happy. Hence. Common sense. 

 

And I explained previously why that is lacking common sense. And that thinking would have still violated the policy Brownsburg schools has in place. 

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2 hours ago, Irishman said:

And I explained previously why that is lacking common sense. And that thinking would have still violated the policy Brownsburg schools has in place. 

I guess I’m not making myself clear, (and I’m only talking about this specific case) so let me try again. 

Instead of this case (which imho is a bunch of crying on both sides) being blown way out of proportion, the teacher should’ve been proactive and spoke w admins and said due to my religious beliefs, I would like to call this person by the specified name from the registration. Have a brief meeting between all stakeholders and say this will be the plan.  If that doesn’t work, move student to another class where they will be called by whatever they want to be called. 

Gonzo. Don’t like common sense?  

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10 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

I guess I’m not making myself clear, (and I’m only talking about this specific case) so let me try again. 

Instead of this case (which imho is a bunch of crying on both sides) being blown way out of proportion, the teacher should’ve been proactive and spoke w admins and said due to my religious beliefs, I would like to call this person by the specified name from the registration. Have a brief meeting between all stakeholders and say this will be the plan.  If that doesn’t work, move student to another class where they will be called by whatever they want to be called. 

Gonzo. Don’t like common sense?  

No need to clarify. I understood exactly what you were saying. And to me, that still is not a common sense approach. Again, for all the scenarios I mentioned above, the ONLY names that you would not acknowledge are those of transgender students? Not a realistic plan either, honestly. So the teacher does not want to follow a district guideline, so the principal will? 

I also only see the whining on one side of the issue. The question is.....is this the hill you want to die on? There is no religious tenet on the face of this earth that would prohibit an individual from calling someone by a name they would prefer to be called. 

Common sense would dictate calling a student by a name they would prefer to be called. If TJ’s name on his record is Thomas, but has gone by TJ, who are you or I to stick to calling him Thomas? Are you going to call any student that goes by Mike, Michael? Treating someone different because of some loosely held “religious” belief is just childish and ridiculous. 

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2 hours ago, Irishman said:

No need to clarify. I understood exactly what you were saying. And to me, that still is not a common sense approach. Again, for all the scenarios I mentioned above, the ONLY names that you would not acknowledge are those of transgender students? Not a realistic plan either, honestly. So the teacher does not want to follow a district guideline, so the principal will? 

I also only see the whining on one side of the issue. The question is.....is this the hill you want to die on? There is no religious tenet on the face of this earth that would prohibit an individual from calling someone by a name they would prefer to be called. 

Common sense would dictate calling a student by a name they would prefer to be called. If TJ’s name on his record is Thomas, but has gone by TJ, who are you or I to stick to calling him Thomas? Are you going to call any student that goes by Mike, Michael? Treating someone different because of some loosely held “religious” belief is just childish and ridiculous. 

If that teacher feels convicted enough, sure. Their choice. 

We all have certain liberties. 

I will agree to disagree. 

 

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“Loosely held religious belief”?  

The teachers stance doesn’t seem to loosely held. 

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26 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

“Loosely held religious belief”?  

The teachers stance doesn’t seem to loosely held. 

Ok....name a religion in existence that has any sort of tenet in place that does not allow a person to be called by another name. I will stand by my original statement.

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Whatever happened to government high school teachers calling their students primarily by their last name using the honorific "Mr." or "Ms."?   It is straightforward, to the point, and respectful.  Probably 75% of my government high school teachers used this method and I don't recall myself or other students feeling disrespected. 

I guess if you wanted not to offend (there is that "feeling" thing again) anybody if this nanny day and age you could use one of the gender-neutral titles.  

Key word for today's youth is "feeling", all else appears to be subordinate.

 

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11 hours ago, Irishman said:

Ok....name a religion in existence that has any sort of tenet in place that does not allow a person to be called by another name. I will stand by my original statement.

Ok

Again. I will agree to disagree. 

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6 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

Ok

Again. I will agree to disagree. 

Without answering the question? Got it

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1 hour ago, Irishman said:

Without answering the question? Got it

Dude. Relax. What do you want me to answer?  Just to fit your narrative. I’ve told you the stance. You said yours. It’s over. 

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13 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

Dude. Relax. What do you want me to answer?  Just to fit your narrative. I’ve told you the stance. You said yours. It’s over. 

Why assume I am not relaxed? lol The question is this: what religion does not allow a person to call another person by a name other than their given name? 

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I am going to let my upper management chain know today that my new name is "Boss"......they better dang well call me that.....

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3 hours ago, Irishman said:

Why assume I am not relaxed? lol The question is this: what religion does not allow a person to call another person by a name other than their given name? 

Sorry you can’t see the issue here from the teachers POV. Have a great day. 

 

4 hours ago, Irishman said:

Without answering the question? Got it

I’m glad you finally get it. Good day. 

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18 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

Sorry you can’t see the issue here from the teachers POV. Have a great day. 

 

I’m glad you finally get it. Good day. 

Don’t assume things. I get what the teacher is saying. But I do question the validity of his claim that it is a religious thing. Calling a student by a name other than what is on the registration is by no means an endorsement of a given behavior. 

Still cannot answer the question....got it. IF the teacher has any chance of succeeding, that is the question he has to answer. 

26 minutes ago, TrojanDad said:

I am going to let my upper management chain know today that my new name is "Boss"......they better dang well call me that.....

Let us know how that goes for you lol

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19 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Let us know how that goes for you lol

So true Irish....I just might throw the inclusion word at them.....explain calling me Boss is the way I can truly feel included....truly bring "my real self" to work.......

What do you think?  Potential??

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3 hours ago, Irishman said:

Why assume I am not relaxed? lol The question is this: what religion does not allow a person to call another person by a name other than their given name? 

I'm gonna say  Pastafarianism.

 

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