Jump to content
slice60

Pennsylvania bill to separate Public - Private

Recommended Posts

52 minutes ago, Gipper said:

Ridiculous.  In the words of Geno Auriemma, "get better".  The irony here is that Luigi coaches at a public school...

You really think that?  You honestly feel that enrollment alone is the best way to classify two types of learning institutions for athletics that basically have almost nothing in common?

Instead of play better....how bout...play institutions with the same number of student athletes....not just students.

It just slays me how some public guys will get on there and thump their chest with this,  " we won't back down to anyone" rhetoric.   We classify for a reason.  

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess my point flew over your head.  To rehash, let's School A has 1200 students, and School B has 1184.  Pretty close in enrollment, although School B is funded by the Rastafarian church and is an athletic powerhouse.  School A's enrollment is based in an urban setting and has also enjoyed a fair amount of athletic success.  The schools happen to be located less than 25 miles apart and happen to be IN THE SAME TIME ZONE.  But they wouldn't be able to play for the same State Championship?   Talk about next -level stupid...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Gipper said:

I guess my point flew over your head.  To rehash, let's School A has 1200 students, and School B has 1184.  Pretty close in enrollment, although School B is funded by the Rastafarian church and is an athletic powerhouse.  School A's enrollment is based in an urban setting and has also enjoyed a fair amount of athletic success.  The schools happen to be located less than 25 miles apart and happen to be IN THE SAME TIME ZONE.  But they wouldn't be able to play for the same State Championship?   Talk about next -level stupid...

I think you missed my point....enrollment "only" falls far short on just about every level as being an adequate method by which to classify like for like schools....it's just stupid.

In your example school B is probably a power house because of the nature of private schools to not only attract a higher quality student athlete on average (Mommy and Daddy expect a certain result for 15k per year), vs School A who has a certain percentage of kids there only because they have a pulse and the law says they have to be there.  This isn't a "try harder" or " get better" issue.  It is a level playing field issue.  There are distinct measurable differences between the two institution types that provide school B with a higher percentage of student athletes per capita.  I would have no problem with them not being able to compete against each other in the STATE tournament....because they shouldn't be to begin with.  "STATE" tournament almost has an implicit "STATE FUNDED" feel to the word doesn't it....almost.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two state titles?  Who gets the asterisk?   A state champion should be called as such because they were the best team in the state period.  It may have come down to funding, facilities, and (dare I say it?) recruiting, but it also should come down to the will and athleticism of the players, coaching, and even luck...

 

Gipper out.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Gipper said:

Two state titles?  Who gets the asterisk?   A state champion should be called as such because they were the best team in the state period.  It may have come down to funding, facilities, and (dare I say it?) recruiting, but it also should come down to the will and athleticism of the players, coaching, and even luck...

 

Gipper out.

Trust me, if I were them I would advocate for the status quo as well....no one likes to give up an advantage they KNOW they have.  I wouldn't really advocate for two separate tournaments in Indiana just because their probably aren't enough Privates to make it work.   Enrollment only isn't the answer though and virtually every state in the union acknowledges that much.   The question is, what is the best method  by which two completely different institution types can complete on an even playing field?  It is debated here often and we will never have agreement....I will say though as I look at it multipliers look more appealing to me than they used to only because there are so many models/states out there now as case studies.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

I think you missed my point....enrollment "only" falls far short on just about every level as being an adequate method by which to classify like for like schools....it's just stupid.

In your example school B is probably a power house because of the nature of private schools to not only attract a higher quality student athlete on average (Mommy and Daddy expect a certain result for 15k per year), vs School A who has a certain percentage of kids there only because they have a pulse and the law says they have to be there.  This isn't a "try harder" or " get better" issue.  It is a level playing field issue.  There are distinct measurable differences between the two institution types that provide school B with a higher percentage of student athletes per capita.  I would have no problem with them not being able to compete against each other in the STATE tournament....because they shouldn't be to begin with.  "STATE" tournament almost has an implicit "STATE FUNDED" feel to the word doesn't it....almost.

Sorry, not even close.  If the "higher quality" student athlete argument were valid private schools should win pretty much every title, every year, in every sport.  And if you separate the 2 you don't have a true state champion.  @Gipper is dead on.  You wanna get better,  find a coach that will develop kids and a program to compete.  Don't set goals to be average,  otherwise you will be.  The "private schools recruit" argument is a tired, lazy excuse.  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

Sorry, not even close.  If the "higher quality" student athlete argument were valid private schools should win pretty much every title, every year, in every sport.  And if you separate the 2 you don't have a true state champion.  @Gipper is dead on.  You wanna get better,  find a coach that will develop kids and a program to compete.  Don't set goals to be average,  otherwise you will be.  The "private schools recruit" argument is a tired, lazy excuse.  

More of them my friend.  If you think enrollment only is the answer, I won't convince you otherwise here.  But it's a no brainer.  We will have to agree to disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

More of them my friend.  If you think enrollment only is the answer, I won't convince you otherwise here.  But it's a no brainer.  We will have to agree to disagree.

The data doesn't seem to support your argument. Screenshot_20190725-174759_Drive.thumb.jpg.164d71f1d7c23bfe6b60c90f185b9976.jpgScreenshot_20190725-174823_Drive.thumb.jpg.381e23194c6a39f6dfab751ac77a16c2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, dmizers3 said:

The data doesn't seem to support your argument. Screenshot_20190725-174759_Drive.thumb.jpg.164d71f1d7c23bfe6b60c90f185b9976.jpgScreenshot_20190725-174823_Drive.thumb.jpg.381e23194c6a39f6dfab751ac77a16c2.jpg

I will admit that my perspective, opinion, and research are football related and focused on my class (3A).  That said, even across all sports and classes, simply looking at the state champion only probably isn’t the best way to prove a point either way.  And thank you success factor...from 2012 on right?  Honestly I forget.  Still apples to oranges to use enrollment only as a way to categorize vastly different educational institutions for sports.  Why would you do that?  

Edited by Titan32

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Titan32 said:

I will admit that my perspective, opinion, and research are football related and focused on my class (3A).  That said, even across all sports and classes, simply looking at the state champion only probably isn’t the best way to prove a point either way.  And thank you success factor...from 2012 on right?  Honestly I forget.  Still apples to oranges to use enrollment only as a way to categorize vastly different educational institutions for sports.  Why would you do that?  

I think many people's perspectives get skewed in regards to this issue because of the great success of a few private schools, generally in football.   And you aren't wrong about only using enrollment.  That's why the success factor was implemented.  Personally I think the success factor window should be 4 years not 2 but that's another discussion.   I just don't believe separating Private schools and Public Schools is the answer.  And I do believe that schools on a relatively equal playing field should just "get better" if they want to win.  I can tell you from being close to the New Pal program and having a kid playing there when Coach Ralph came that's exactly what they did.  They didn't magically just get better athletes or kids and turn into a football power overnight.  They dramatically increased their off season work.  It can be done anywhere. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dmizers3 said:

I think many people's perspectives get skewed in regards to this issue because of the great success of a few private schools, generally in football.   And you aren't wrong about only using enrollment.  That's why the success factor was implemented.  Personally I think the success factor window should be 4 years not 2 but that's another discussion.   I just don't believe separating Private schools and Public Schools is the answer.  And I do believe that schools on a relatively equal playing field should just "get better" if they want to win.  I can tell you from being close to the New Pal program and having a kid playing there when Coach Ralph came that's exactly what they did.  They didn't magically just get better athletes or kids and turn into a football power overnight.  They dramatically increased their off season work.  It can be done anywhere. 

Easily one of the best posts I’ve seen on this subject. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I think 3A public schools in SW Indiana have been disappointed because some of their best teams they’ve had couldn’t beat Chatard or Memorial to advance in the state tournament over the past 10 or so years. I think coaching and work habits had more to do with it than just athletes. JMO.  

Edited by Screagle
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Screagle said:

I think 3A public schools in SW Indiana have been disappointed because some of their best teams they’ve had couldn’t beat Chatard or Memorial to advance in the state tournament over the past 10 or so years. I think coaching and work habits had more to do with it than just athletes. JMO.  

Beating Memorial hasn't been a problem 50% of the time (through hard work and top notch coaching JMO) and couldn't beat vs didn't beat Chatard are two completely different things.  Your ability to turn any thread to a chest bumping opportunity for your fantastic run is pretty remarkable.  Great team, great athletes....you deserve it.  But everyone on this thread knows that enrollment only won't work due to the inherent ability of privates to have more quality kids per capita.   It is undeniable.  

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, dmizers3 said:

The data doesn't seem to support your argument. Screenshot_20190725-174759_Drive.thumb.jpg.164d71f1d7c23bfe6b60c90f185b9976.jpgScreenshot_20190725-174823_Drive.thumb.jpg.381e23194c6a39f6dfab751ac77a16c2.jpg

Given the fact the p/p schools make up less than 10% of all football playing high schools recognized by the IHSAA I would say the data does the support the argument.  P/p schools have advantages public high school will never have.  This has been hashed and rehashed multiple times here on the GID.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dmizers3 said:

I think many people's perspectives get skewed in regards to this issue because of the great success of a few private schools, generally in football.   And you aren't wrong about only using enrollment.  That's why the success factor was implemented.  Personally I think the success factor window should be 4 years not 2 but that's another discussion.   I just don't believe separating Private schools and Public Schools is the answer.  And I do believe that schools on a relatively equal playing field should just "get better" if they want to win.  I can tell you from being close to the New Pal program and having a kid playing there when Coach Ralph came that's exactly what they did.  They didn't magically just get better athletes or kids and turn into a football power overnight.  They dramatically increased their off season work.  It can be done anywhere. 

I agree with your perspective on the success factor.  And like I said, I don't think separating private/public would work in Indiana, although I think it might in some states.  I am very familiar with getting better and can do the Macho chest bumping in that regard as well as anyone.  That said...enrollment based classification is apples to oranges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Screagle said:

I think 3A public schools in SW Indiana have been disappointed because some of their best teams they’ve had couldn’t beat Chatard or Memorial to advance in the state tournament over the past 10 or so years. I think coaching and work habits had more to do with it than just athletes. JMO.  

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner!!!

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I look back on my storied high school athletic career, I must admit that I won a total of zero state championship.

 

I'm OK with that...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dmizers3 said:

I think many people's perspectives get skewed in regards to this issue because of the great success of a few private schools, generally in football.   And you aren't wrong about only using enrollment.  That's why the success factor was implemented.  Personally I think the success factor window should be 4 years not 2 but that's another discussion.   I just don't believe separating Private schools and Public Schools is the answer.  And I do believe that schools on a relatively equal playing field should just "get better" if they want to win.  I can tell you from being close to the New Pal program and having a kid playing there when Coach Ralph came that's exactly what they did.  They didn't magically just get better athletes or kids and turn into a football power overnight.  They dramatically increased their off season work.  It can be done anywhere. 

There is only one thing I would change in regard to this post. New Pal is a solid example of what extra time, effort, energy, and focus can do for a program. But if we compare enrollments of non public schools and the areas they draw a decent portion of their athletes from; urban schools, then the contrast is much more drastic. Bishop Dwenger has a great program. I look forward to seeing what they can do in 5A. A snapshot of Dwenger’s sectional the last several years paints a more clear picture of the notion that attendance as the only factor to determine classes is highly flawed. I don’t know the numbers at other schools, but at NH, 10% of our population is special ed. A majority of them are not able to compete in athletics, much less be in Core 40 classes. Some of those students, based on age alone, would not be eligible if they could participate. The impact of that population at most non public schools is minimal at best, or just non existent. All that said, I am not a fan of separating schools. I do like the success factor, but would prefer the original proposal from the IFCA using 4 years instead of 2. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should be wide open in the south for 3A public schools to advance to state. I can name 1 school for sure that is extremely excited about that. Chatard went north and Memorial to 4A.  That’s the way some prefer it. Easy path over a challenging path.  Speaks volume about competitiveness.  I guess it comes down to mommy and daddy having higher expectations since they’ve invested 15k?? Or at least I think I’ve read that on a previous post. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Screagle said:

It should be wide open in the south for 3A public schools to advance to state. I can name 1 school for sure that is extremely excited about that. Chatard went north and Memorial to 4A.  That’s the way some prefer it. Easy path over a challenging path.  Speaks volume about competitiveness.  I guess it comes down to mommy and daddy having higher expectations since they’ve invested 15k?? Or at least I think I’ve read that on a previous post. 

in short, play like a champion.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gipper said:

As I look back on my storied high school athletic career, I must admit that I won a total of zero state championship.

 

I'm OK with that...

0-10, 4-5, 5-6 in my illustrious career. 

Sad part is I blew out my knee halfway thru Senior season & then the team went 3-2 without me. 

And then 7-2/top 10  the next year!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...