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slice60

Pennsylvania bill to separate Public - Private

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28 minutes ago, slice60 said:

0-10, 4-5, 5-6 in my illustrious career. 

Sad part is I blew out my knee halfway thru Senior season & then the team went 3-2 without me. 

And then 7-2/top 10  the next year!

Bummer!  Hopefully you picked up some good looking chicks during your recovery...

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3 hours ago, Screagle said:

I think 3A public schools in SW Indiana have been disappointed because some of their best teams they’ve had couldn’t beat Chatard or Memorial to advance in the state tournament over the past 10 or so years. I think coaching and work habits had more to do with it than just athletes. JMO.  

😂😂😂😂...I’m dying over here.

 

Okay okay.....so lemme get this straight...

 

you are saying memorials success these last few years was more about coaching than athletes...even though before 2017 Hurley’s coaching record 59-52...if you go back to Lindauers sophomore year...he was 50-48.  Lindauers freshman year Memorial went 2-8. The 3 years prior to that memorial had to scratch and claw to get to 3 or 4 wins on a season

 

and then...AND THEN 😂 you wanna make offhand/between the line comments about a coach who has gone 76-12.  And on that note...vs public schools he has a record of 73-6...leaving a record of 3-6 vs p/p schools.  5 of the 6 losses were to teams who made it to the state finals (3 of those 5 won the state title) I think you are undercutting the athletes you guys had....especially Lindauer and Combs...both of them were once in a generation players and to say coaching was the reason for success is a huge discredit to their abilities IMO.

 

In regards to this whole conversation and this “get better” movement....

get better...just triple the number of players on your team.  Get better...just take a historically losing team with no sectional titles to a winning tradition and a 76-12 record over 12 years.  Get better...have your community take one empty stands and pack them so much that you have to bring in extra bleachers and build a larger stand section. Get better....have your student athletes commit year round to bettering themselves...during the summers for the past 5/6 years travel to Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, and the Indianapolis area to play against numerous top programs and champions from Michigan to Oklahoma to Alabama and is everywhere in between.  Get better...try and make your schedule as tough as possible with conference restrictions...do so well that your conference welcomes the idea of your team leaving the conference and you get a conference realignment that will allow you to schedule 4A/5A/6A teams....

 

”get better. Just get better. It’s as easy as that”. Telling a team to “get better” is a lot easier if you are talking about a team that isn’t giving it everything they got...and for GS, the community, the coaches (even at the youth levels), and especially the players are giving absolutely everything they got and have been for the better part of this decade. At this point, I don’t think anyone could possibly ask the Gibson Southern community and its players to work any harder or sacrifice more in the goal of getting better.  

 

“Get better” such an asinine comment

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I can name 1 school that is worried about any other school in the South having success/spotlight.  I mean if I had had the kind of successes they have had the last 3 years the very very very last thing on my mind would be a little public out in a cornfield.  The fact that they watch us so closely really speaks volumes.  Paths to State very every cycle and anyone who says they pray for their path to get tougher is full it.  For top notch programs in any sport some years your better teams don't advance and some years your weaker teams do, so many variables out of your control.  Good news is the only asterisks exits in weak minds of haters.

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17 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

😂😂😂😂...I’m dying over here.

 

Okay okay.....so lemme get this straight...

 

you are saying memorials success these last few years was more about coaching than athletes...even though before 2017 Hurley’s coaching record 59-52...if you go back to Lindauers sophomore year...he was 50-48.  Lindauers freshman year Memorial went 2-8. The 3 years prior to that memorial had to scratch and claw to get to 3 or 4 wins on a season

 

and then...AND THEN 😂 you wanna make offhand/between the line comments about a coach who has gone 76-12.  And on that note...vs public schools he has a record of 73-6...leaving a record of 3-6 vs p/p schools.  5 of the 6 losses were to teams who made it to the state finals (3 of those 5 won the state title) I think you are undercutting the athletes you guys had....especially Lindauer and Combs...both of them were once in a generation players and to say coaching was the reason for success is a huge discredit to their abilities IMO.

 

In regards to this whole conversation and this “get better” movement....

get better...just triple the number of players on your team.  Get better...just take a historically losing team with no sectional titles to a winning tradition and a 76-12 record over 12 years.  Get better...have your community take one empty stands and pack them so much that you have to bring in extra bleachers and build a larger stand section. Get better....have your student athletes commit year round to bettering themselves...during the summers for the past 5/6 years travel to Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, and the Indianapolis area to play against numerous top programs and champions from Michigan to Oklahoma to Alabama and is everywhere in between.  Get better...try and make your schedule as tough as possible with conference restrictions...do so well that your conference welcomes the idea of your team leaving the conference and you get a conference realignment that will allow you to schedule 4A/5A/6A teams....

 

”get better. Just get better. It’s as easy as that”. Telling a team to “get better” is a lot easier if you are talking about a team that isn’t giving it everything they got...and for GS, the community, the coaches (even at the youth levels), and especially the players are giving absolutely everything they got and have been for the better part of this decade. At this point, I don’t think anyone could possibly ask the Gibson Southern community and its players to work any harder or sacrifice more in the goal of getting better.  

 

“Get better” such an asinine comment

That really puts me in my place.  The only thing is I really don't care...

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Case Study:  SIAC Memorial 3A (about 600 kids) vs Castle 5A (almost 6A) (about 1200 kids).  These two schools many years battle it out for the conference all sports champion in both boys and girls sports.  Are the Memorial student athletes working twice as hard?  Are the Coaches twice as good?  Could it be that both schools have roughly the same number of quality success driven student athletes in the hallways?  What are the percentages of students from each school that participate in extracurricular activities (athletic and non-athletic).  How many of the 1200 at Castle participate in absolutely nothing?  I see here all the time how much "money" the Newburgh area has for sports....yet these two institutions are relatively equal in term of athletic performance.  Is enrollment alone the best way to classify these schools?

Edited by Titan32

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24 minutes ago, Gipper said:

That really puts me in my place.  The only thing is I really don't care...

Oh. Well in that case why don’t you just remove yourself from conversations about these sort of things. Because whether you care or not, there are hundreds of thousands of families who do care about these sorts of topics and you’re just preventing honest dialogue. 🤷🏼‍♂️ And whether you think it’s funny or not, there are over a million students in Indiana who would be impacted by any such change and that’s no laughing matter 

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No it’s about mommy and daddy expecting more because they pay 15k? Right T32?  I give Hurley credit because when he has the horses his teams finish at LOS. I’ve seen teams in SW Indiana that have the horses and can’t get it done. 

Nobody cares about 7 on 7 in Arkansas!  Lmao.  

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3 minutes ago, Screagle said:

No it’s about mommy and daddy expecting more because they pay 15k? Right T32?  I give Hurley credit because when he has the horses his teams finish at LOS. I’ve seen teams in SW Indiana that have the horses and can’t get it done. 

Nobody cares about 7 on 7 in Arkansas!  Lmao.  

I can tell you when I pay 10-15k for something...it better work as expected LOL!  Some horses are built and some are bred.  Like I said, some years it's more about the other guy and mother nature than it is about you.  No one with any class will take credit from Hurley for his successes. 

Edited by Titan32

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Just now, Screagle said:

No it’s about mommy and daddy expecting more because they pay 15k? Right T32?  I give Hurley credit because when he has the horses his teams finish at LOS. I’ve seen teams in SW Indiana that have the horses and can’t get it done. 

There is no need to include T32 in response to what I’m saying. He is his own man and can/does stand by his comments.  

 

I personally don’t agree with separating p/p schools from public schools in athletics. That’s just my personal opinion.  But I also agree with the assessment that enrollment isn’t the best way to evaluate level of play for athletics in high school.  Sure the success factor helps and isn’t perfect but there are a number of other factors that play into this complicated matter

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12 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

I can tell you when I pay 10-15k for something...it better work as expected LOL!  Some horses are built and some are bred.  Like I said, some years it's more about the other guy and mother nature than it is about you.  No one with any class will take credit from Hurley for his successes. 

I have no class 😂🤷🏼‍♂️  I don’t really mind believing that some coaches are better than what their abilities are because of the players they have

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20 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Oh. Well in that case why don’t you just remove yourself from conversations about these sort of things. Because whether you care or not, there are hundreds of thousands of families who do care about these sorts of topics and you’re just preventing honest dialogue. 🤷🏼‍♂️ And whether you think it’s funny or not, there are over a million students in Indiana who would be impacted by any such change and that’s no laughing matter 

No.  Free speech rules...

 

By the way, sorry you played without a helmet.

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Look, I realize a lot of you think a championship is the only thing.  It's not.  A few good moments on the field, one hell of a victory party, etc.   But it ends there as time does not stand still.  People move on...

 

...as I said in an earlier post, I never won a state championship in high school, yet I was cool with it and still am.  I'm no longer a football player, yet I'm killing it in my career--that's the real victory!  If I trampled on some of your feelings, I would like to expend my most sincere apologies, but I would also like to remind you football is a game, and games should be fun. 

Edited by Gipper
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7 minutes ago, Gipper said:

Look, I realize a lot of you think a championship is the only thing.  It's not.  A few good moments on the field, one hell of a victory party, etc.   But it ends there as time does not stand still.  People move on...

 

...as I said in an earlier post, I never won a state championship in high school, yet I was cool with it and still am.  I'm no longer a football player, yet I'm killing it in my career--that's the real victory!  If I trampled on some of your feelings, I would like to expend my most sincere apologies, but I would also like to remind you football is a game, ad games should be fun. 

I can get behind this too. And while I agree, there are some people in the belief that getting to that game has more implications than just a trophy.  Maybe there is a kid that went unnoticed and a college scout spots them on the field during the title game.  While sure it may be a game and fun, I think you would be surprised by the number of families who view football and sports in general not as just a game but an avenue to a college education...especially in lower income areas, athletics is a more promising ticket to a college education than academics.  That’s just a sad reality of today’s education. 

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9 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I can get behind this too. And while I agree, there are some people in the belief that getting to that game has more implications than just a trophy.  Maybe there is a kid that went unnoticed and a college scout spots them on the field during the title game.  While sure it may be a game and fun, I think you would be surprised by the number of families who view football and sports in general not as just a game but an avenue to a college education...especially in lower income areas, athletics is a more promising ticket to a college education than academics.  That’s just a sad reality of today’s education. 

I get your point, I never meant to come across as an arrogant POS.  I wish all you guys well...

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2 hours ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

😂😂😂😂...I’m dying over here.

 

Okay okay.....so lemme get this straight...

 

you are saying memorials success these last few years was more about coaching than athletes...even though before 2017 Hurley’s coaching record 59-52...if you go back to Lindauers sophomore year...he was 50-48.  Lindauers freshman year Memorial went 2-8. The 3 years prior to that memorial had to scratch and claw to get to 3 or 4 wins on a season

 

and then...AND THEN 😂 you wanna make offhand/between the line comments about a coach who has gone 76-12.  And on that note...vs public schools he has a record of 73-6...leaving a record of 3-6 vs p/p schools.  5 of the 6 losses were to teams who made it to the state finals (3 of those 5 won the state title) I think you are undercutting the athletes you guys had....especially Lindauer and Combs...both of them were once in a generation players and to say coaching was the reason for success is a huge discredit to their abilities IMO.

 

In regards to this whole conversation and this “get better” movement....

get better...just triple the number of players on your team.  Get better...just take a historically losing team with no sectional titles to a winning tradition and a 76-12 record over 12 years.  Get better...have your community take one empty stands and pack them so much that you have to bring in extra bleachers and build a larger stand section. Get better....have your student athletes commit year round to bettering themselves...during the summers for the past 5/6 years travel to Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, and the Indianapolis area to play against numerous top programs and champions from Michigan to Oklahoma to Alabama and is everywhere in between.  Get better...try and make your schedule as tough as possible with conference restrictions...do so well that your conference welcomes the idea of your team leaving the conference and you get a conference realignment that will allow you to schedule 4A/5A/6A teams....

 

”get better. Just get better. It’s as easy as that”. Telling a team to “get better” is a lot easier if you are talking about a team that isn’t giving it everything they got...and for GS, the community, the coaches (even at the youth levels), and especially the players are giving absolutely everything they got and have been for the better part of this decade. At this point, I don’t think anyone could possibly ask the Gibson Southern community and its players to work any harder or sacrifice more in the goal of getting better.  

 

“Get better” such an asinine comment

Interesting take that asking someone to "get better" is asinine.  So I guess we should just accept mediocrity?  And to your point, no, getting better isn't easy and takes time, but if you're really interested in improving you will find a way.  Everyone thinks they're working hard and giving it all they've got until they find someone who's willing to push them beyond where they thought they could go.  And this post is in no way questioning the efforts of any program or kid.  It's only pointing out that saying "get better is asinine" is how programs and people get stuck in mediocrity and accept it.

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45 minutes ago, dmizers3 said:

Interesting take that asking someone to "get better" is asinine.  So I guess we should just accept mediocrity?  And to your point, no, getting better isn't easy and takes time, but if you're really interested in improving you will find a way.  Everyone thinks they're working hard and giving it all they've got until they find someone who's willing to push them beyond where they thought they could go.  And this post is in no way questioning the efforts of any program or kid.  It's only pointing out that saying "get better is asinine" is how programs and people get stuck in mediocrity and accept it.

I’m not drawing questions to the actual concept of getting better, just that saying “get better” is a bad take in the scheme of debating the topic of p/p vs public in athletics.  

 

Im not sure there is a good comparison to use but it would be similar to telling a depressed person “don’t feel sad” or if someone were to stub their toe and say ouch and me to reply “well don’t do that”.  

 

Basically it’s the idea of person A saying “I got this problem” and person b saying “well don’t have that problem”. That’s what I meant by that comment 

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7 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

I’m not drawing questions to the actual concept of getting better, just that saying “get better” is a bad take in the scheme of debating the topic of p/p vs public in athletics.  

 

Im not sure there is a good comparison to use but it would be similar to telling a depressed person “don’t feel sad” or if someone were to stub their toe and say ouch and me to reply “well don’t do that”.  

 

Basically it’s the idea of person A saying “I got this problem” and person b saying “well don’t have that problem”. That’s what I meant by that comment 

Fair enough.  I completely get that and don't disagree with you.

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18 hours ago, Titan32 said:

Case Study:  SIAC Memorial 3A (about 600 kids) vs Castle 5A (almost 6A) (about 1200 kids).  These two schools many years battle it out for the conference all sports champion in both boys and girls sports.  Are the Memorial student athletes working twice as hard?  Are the Coaches twice as good?  Could it be that both schools have roughly the same number of quality success driven student athletes in the hallways?  What are the percentages of students from each school that participate in extracurricular activities (athletic and non-athletic).  How many of the 1200 at Castle participate in absolutely nothing?  I see here all the time how much "money" the Newburgh area has for sports....yet these two institutions are relatively equal in term of athletic performance.  Is enrollment alone the best way to classify these schools?

Wow. When did Reitz and Harrison get more kids than Castle? I mean Reitz is at almost 1400, and Harrison is at almost 1300. Wouldn’t that make them almost 6A too? 

 

Fact checking. Only takes a minute, saves a lot of embarrassment. 

 

Castle has over 1900 (almost 2000) students for those who would want to know. 

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4 minutes ago, TransplantedPanther said:

Wow. When did Reitz and Harrison get more kids than Castle? I mean Reitz is at almost 1400, and Harrison is at almost 1300. Wouldn’t that make them almost 6A too? 

 

Fact checking. Only takes a minute, saves a lot of embarrassment. 

 

Castle has over 1900 (almost 2000) students for those who would want to know. 

Sorry for the type-o there.  Had the numbers pulled up on my screen.  Anyway the same point is made.  If this is the biggest mistake I make this week I’ll be doing great LOL.  No embarrassment here!!

Edited by Titan32

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Somebody has to win every year and the team who wins should not be punished. No matter what the system is, there will be a few teams that rises to the top and everyone will want that team pushed out so their own team can win.  These rules have never been about fairness   They are about “my team winning instead of yours”  

Some school are football school.  Some are baseball. Some are basketball.  Somebody has to win.  That’s just the way life is.   Having said that,   A 1 class level bump is reasonable but that should be the maximum bump.  

What I find strange is nobody seems to care that the same 4 teams win the 6A class level every year. Being great is only allowable if you are in 6A?. Or maybe it’s because the schools complaining about the success of others dont have to worry about moving to 6A yet so “fairness” in 6 A is not a concern to them right now. (Which proves they don’t really care about fairness to begin with). 

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1 hour ago, OldschoolFB said:

Somebody has to win every year and the team who wins should not be punished. No matter what the system is, there will be a few teams that rises to the top and everyone will want that team pushed out so their own team can win.  These rules have never been about fairness   They are about “my team winning instead of yours”  

Some school are football school.  Some are baseball. Some are basketball.  Somebody has to win.  That’s just the way life is.   Having said that,   A 1 class level bump is reasonable but that should be the maximum bump.  

What I find strange is nobody seems to care that the same 4 teams win the 6A class level every year. Being great is only allowable if you are in 6A?. Or maybe it’s because the schools complaining about the success of others dont have to worry about moving to 6A yet so “fairness” in 6 A is not a concern to them right now. (Which proves they don’t really care about fairness to begin with). 

Hard to bump a Mega School up to 7A.

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1 hour ago, Titan32 said:

Hard to bump a Mega School up to 7A.

So you just let them play and whoever is the best team is crowned the State Champion?   Oh my gosh, what a concept?   We should allow that same concept for the other class levels. 

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7 hours ago, OldschoolFB said:

Somebody has to win every year and the team who wins should not be punished. No matter what the system is, there will be a few teams that rises to the top and everyone will want that team pushed out so their own team can win.  These rules have never been about fairness   They are about “my team winning instead of yours”  

Some school are football school.  Some are baseball. Some are basketball.  Somebody has to win.  That’s just the way life is.   Having said that,   A 1 class level bump is reasonable but that should be the maximum bump.  

What I find strange is nobody seems to care that the same 4 teams win the 6A class level every year. Being great is only allowable if you are in 6A?. Or maybe it’s because the schools complaining about the success of others dont have to worry about moving to 6A yet so “fairness” in 6 A is not a concern to them right now. (Which proves they don’t really care about fairness to begin with). 

So using your "best team wins, so don't punish the winning team" logic, why don't we just go back to single class sports? Heck, let's do that for every sport including football. If your team isn't good enough to beat Warren Central football or Carmel basketball or Andrean baseball, then you just need to work harder & get better, right? Having a fraction of their enrollment is just an excuse, so work harder. Not being able to recruit from a large metro area is just an excuse, so work harder.

 

I posted this Pennsylvania link for all of those folks who say "Success Factor is NOT FAIR to my school because we shouldn't have to play against bigger schools to win our 10th state championship". The IHSAA Success Factor is pretty minor compared to Illinois' Private school multiplier or states that don't even allow Private & Public schools to compete for the same title.

 

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As my Geno Auriemma remark was not too well received, how about Rodney "why can't we all just get along" King?  Just kidding--this is a very slippery slope with no good outcome, or so it seems.  I wish everybody a healthy 2019 campaign, and San Dimas High School football indeed does rule...

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One thing to counter the "private schools have an unfair advantage" is not every private school dominates. It's really only a handful of them. The ultimate private schools (Culver Military Academy and Park Tudor) don't dominate in many sports, and they recruit all over the country. Their emphasis on sports is different than other private schools too. That's why a blanket policy for all private schools (i.e. multiplier) doesn't make sense. I think the Success Factor is the best solution I've seen. It could possibly be tweaked, but in general it works because it applies to everyone equally and doesn't unnecessarily punish private schools that don't perform as well.

I agree private schools generally do have an advantage because they have a high percentage of active students in activities including sports. The make-up of the student bodies are very different. But that doesn't mean they will all automatically be better. We also have to accept the fact no system will be perfect and the ultimate goal is competition, teamwork, and goal setting. Generally the players don't care. They  just want to play and compete and some will be seeking college scholarships. This really is an adult problem.

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