BLACKGOLD2007

On 6/19/2023 at 10:22 PM, Grover said:

I think you underestimate BD.

We haven't played anyone, other than Cathedral, from down there in years...I have no idea how good anyone in that part of the state is going to be.  Like I said stab in the dark.  But, I wont be the least bit surprised if BD, Warren and Carmel are back to their normal winning 10+ games ways. 

6A

10. Carmel

9. Warren Central

8. Ben Davis

7. Westfield

6. Crown Point

5. Brownsburg

4. HSE

3. FW Carroll

2. Cathedral

1. Center Grove

Just a stab in the dark.

On 5/19/2023 at 4:28 PM, npcougar15 said:

yes and no. NP outgrew the old NSC; when the NSC disassembled NP, Glenn, Bremen, Jimtown didn't have much of a choice other than landing in the NIC. Not ideal but it worked for the time being. It was pretty apparent that it was going to be a temporary conference affiliation for certain members and honestly lasted a little longer than I originally thought. The NIC is NOT the best fit for ANY of the old NSC schools and with Elkhart forming and Mishawaka leaving it's created a bigger gap between the big schools (Elkhart, Penn, Adams) and medium sized schools (NP, St. Joe, Marian, Riley, Washington, Jimtown).

 

Unfortunately, NP sits in "no mans land" when it comes to conference affiliation. You have the NCC that's just a little too far to west to be apart of (man would it be great to play Hobart, Lowell, Andrean for a conference title every season) and you have the NLC which would be way more realistic and doable to the east. 

 

I said it before and I'll say it again, but this is the most balanced/stable conference's the michiana schools could create:

Penn, Elkhart, Warsaw, Mishawaka, Goshen, Adams, Riley, Washington

Northridge, Northwood, New Prairie, Plymouth, Concord, St. Joe, Marian, Jimtown (or if CMA wants to play)

Bremen, Glenn, LaVille, Wawasee, Tippy Valley, Knox, Rochester, Fairfield

I hear you on what is best for local school affiliation, but Mishawaka ran from Penn once, they wont join a conference with them again.  

I think in all honesty, if the NIC dissolves, the SB schools and the catholic schools joining together might be the only option.  Penn going to the Duneland with either Elkhart or NP would be interesting.  However, I think the NLC would be dumb to not try to scoop up Elkhart.  They could even consider NP, but that is a long drive from Wawasee and Warsaw.  But, the fanatics of the NLC will drive.  

On 5/19/2023 at 10:01 AM, US31 said:

All I'm saying is that whatever problems exist with current NIC schools....those problems are not the current NLC schools' to solve.  

At no point am I "mad" about anything.  I'm just trying to point out the reality of how these decisions are made, and all of these schools should be welcome to make the best decisions for their own student athletes.  Sometimes those best interests are common to other schools...sometimes they aren't.  

Preach.  We just need to accept that the NIC is on it's very last peg leg to stand on.  At some point the three schools will either be conference-less or make a small conference with SB St. Joe and Marian.  Penn and Elkhart have got to be looking at all of their options.  

It is a touch situation all around, but the SBSC has almost brought this upon themselves with their poor performing schools across the board.  I feel for the kids that go there.

5 hours ago, SBFootballFan6 said:

So if those 3 count it as JV games, would that mean their varsity forfeit their conference varsity game against Clay? So would each of these 3 start out with a lose in conference and does Clay start their season 3-0? I'm just not seeing how they can cancel a conference game and it not count as a forfeit. Someone help me out on this.

That seems like the most reasonable answer.  There is a chance it may work out this way.  Clay will "start" the regular season 3-0 at the varsity level.  Since Bremen, Jimtown and Glenn are all leaving they will either force it as a varsity level loss or just turn a blind eye to it.  If they turn the blind eye to it, those schools could pawn that loss off on the JV teams, even if they actually win the game on the field. 

If the playoffs actually did seeding, then this would be very important.  However, since there is no seeding, even if you take the L at the Varsity level it does not affect your playoff standing.

On 5/16/2023 at 1:05 PM, BDGiant93 said:

Sometimes you schedule what you can. Ben Davis played Tech for several years until Brownsburg finally came on the schedule. 

I know!  We are just restless up here.  The long term fans of the program remember what we were, and right now it is hard to watch us struggle with local teams.  I miss the days of slug fest games with Ben Davis.  Hell, I miss us getting handled by you.  It woke us up to the level we would need to be at, to compete.  Those days are long long gone. 

13 hours ago, BTF said:

They return half their starters from last season and the student body keeps getting stronger. They might be the north's best team this year even if they start the season 0-2. HSE will be hungry when they host Carroll at Lucas Oil. And I'm making a semi-bold prediction that WC will be one of the top three teams in the state this year .

Cannot wait to see the results!  

3 minutes ago, US31 said:

I beleive all HCC teams are only non-con weeks 1 & 2. 

Penn is a nice fit in the HCC in terms of school size, demographics, etc.  Just not too close.  Would be nice to see them schedule some HCC teams.

Sounds good, that would be a headache for an athletic director to negotiate.  Each conference has their rules about when they can play their non conference games.  I think that the power conference has shifted to the HCC from the MIC, because the MIC has lost two huge parts of their membership. 

13 hours ago, BTF said:

Penn vs Snider needs to resume at some point. They had a nice rivalry spanning two decades as the north's two premier teams. 

PLEASE!!!  That game was circled on the calendar every year for who wins this game is probably going to play Carmel for the North semi state championship.....that is when we were both 5A. 

1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said:

The MaxPreps schedule is often not reliable. The authority on scheduling in Indiana is johnharrell.net. 

Well look at Penn scheduling the tough games....cant wait to see all 20 of Morton's fans make the trip.

Carroll is going big this season with HSE and Warren Central back to back....I think all of Northern Indiana will be very aware of who the new top Dog is if they can put together two strong games in a row!

Good luck boys!

6 minutes ago, PDB26 said:

Good rationale. I'd probably rather an additional game against New Prairie or one of the NLC schools you listed. The JV and freshman games would almost certainly be more valuable. I've become very skeptical of any benefit gained by depth guys during garbage time on Friday night, especially with the running clock in play these days.

Well the best way to get decent experience for the young guys on Friday nights is to beat these teams by 40 at half.  Then for a solid quarter play their 1s vs your two and threes.  But, that is what Penn used to do, now we struggle to do that.  

But, yes scheduling quality JV and freshmen games becomes much more valuable.  

I just want Penn to be the team that people in the North wanted to avoid; now everyone wants a shot at us, because we are beatable.

I saw on Harrell that Penn has Hammond Morton this year....He also has us in against Cathedral 

Maxpreps has Penn playing Merrillville the day of the Valpo game, and two games on 9/8 against Morton and St. Mary's

IDK what is going on.

4 hours ago, SBFootballFan6 said:

Well if you go by the by-laws, those players would not be able to play varsity sports. So they are in a tough spot.

That is unfortunate.  SBSC really created a pickle for a bunch of kids that they probably never considered.

3 hours ago, PDB26 said:

I think this argument was suspect when the administration made it in 2002, and does not reflect the reality of Penn's scheduling across almost all of its sports today. Most programs already compete against a number of teams in the Region--both home and away year-to-year--as well as against schools in the SAC plus Carmel and others. The flexibility of days on which all other programs compete mitigates travel concerns even more. A move to the DAC would require a different arrangement for when JV and freshman football games are played, something that should be seen as a welcome and necessary change anyway. Freshman football on Thursdays and the odd the Monday here and there makes no sense.

I think that when each option is laid out for presentation, if remaining in a conference is Penn's goal, then the DAC is the way to go....With that being said, I would suggest only going into the DAC if they jump to 10 teams and onboard Elkhart with them.  This gives Penn the opportunity to get 5 conference games and 4 non again.  Penn's conference schedule will improve right away, and they can still look south, east or north for touch competition. 

If the DAC wont move on that, Independent all the way.  

5 hours ago, US31 said:

Penn to the NLC does nothing for Penn on the big stage. 

Is it better than current NIC situation....yes. 

Is playing Northwood, Northridge, Goshen, & Concord preparing you to beat the best schools in the Region, FW, and Indy...emphatically No.

Go Indendent, and I'm sure with in a year or so you could schedule Mishawaka, Warsaw, Elkhart, and a couple DAC schools, along with your marquee matchups with Carmel, Cathedrawl, Brother Rice, etc.  It seems like you could get CG on a schedule too.

Penn to the NLC makes zero sense for the NLC or Penn.

You are right, my thought about the NLC idea was the NLC has amazing fan bases and it is super local.  The games are always packed, so the amount of money for door and parking would go up.  But, grand scheme of things no, the smaller competitive local teams do not help prep a bigger Penn for any situation in the playoffs. 

The DAC or going Independent are the two premium options.

But, even with going Independent, there have to be filler games...

3 hours ago, PDB26 said:

You had me in the first half, but these two games have to go, too.

I get it, I just think that if we do go independent that we need some filler on the schedule to help rest, recover and get the depth opportunities to play.

Move the Mishawaka game back to the end of the season, put the rotating south bend school game the week before it.

Play Valpo week 1 like always.  

Game 1: Valpo

Game 2: Northwood/Concord/Northridge/Warsaw (all competitive local teams) 

Game 3: Marian/St. Joe

Game 4: Snider

Game 5: La Jeff

Game 6: Westfield

Game 7: Elkhart

Game 8: Riley/Adams/Washington

Game 9: Mishawaka

Penn has the chance of dropping 7 of those games.  If Penn wins 7 of those games, I think they are well prepared for the playoffs.

22 hours ago, SBFootballFan6 said:

I could be wrong, but I don’t think a school can play 2 varsity games a week. So did Clay agree to just play a JV game and cancel the varsity game? If not how can a team just decide not to play a conference game? If someone skips a varsity game, is it considered a forfeit? Interesting situation going on with Clay closing and those 3 leaving conference next year.

Maybe they just don't care.

adding TV to their schedule is better for them in the long run.

This is also interesting, if they don't play Clay, and the NIC rules it a forfeit, but the team beats TV in their game, which record do you go with?  What would the IHSAA recognize as the proper record?

On 5/11/2023 at 9:18 PM, MarshallCounty said:

From what I heard, the 3 schools are sending their JV to play them. 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA omg that is such a burn!  

The NIC just needs to tell SBSC to begin the athletics merger now.  What will happen is the kids playing ball will either not play or show up for practice at what will be their future school.

Let's all be fair, The NIC will either disband or consolidate into a smaller school conference.  The South Bend Schools do not want to play Penn; Mishawaka ran away from being the best team in the NIC because of Penn.  Now because of size Elkhart is on the Island of "You're too big," the NLC allows Warsaw in the conference and probably would take Elkhart as well.  But, the NLC would never consider Penn joining....Even though that conference makes the most sense at this present moment.  

With the formation of the small school conference, the NLC taking on Elkhart and maybe encouraging either Wawasee or Plymouth to move on would make sense.

Penn wont join the DAC, too much driving from week to week.  But, if you consider that driving with the possibility of the driving you will do with an independent schedule, maybe it is the second best fit.

If Penn joined the DAC, would the conference restructure or stay a single table, you play the schedule given.  Penn likes only having 5 conference games, it gives them the most schedule freedom.  Adding Penn to the DAC gives them 9, if you also bring on Elkhart that is 10.  

You could do the I80 teams: Elkhart, Penn, LaPorte, Michigan City and Portage (the weaker division) and the others are in the second portion.

You could do and even mix: Elkhart, Penn, Valpo, Merrillville and LaPorte or Portage.  This keeps the two furthest teams together, but also gives them a better variety of what the DAC offers.  

Penn and Elkhart would then have the freedom of scheduling local teams to continue rivalries or even pursue past rivalries.

On 5/1/2023 at 11:26 AM, psaboy said:

Problem is conference Penn plays in, teams are not very good, other than maybe Elkhart and New Prairie?? They should consider going independent or maybe join the Duneland

I have been clamoring for independent.  We keep Mishawaka and Elkhart locally. Valpo remains at the beginning of the year.  I would have no issue keeping Marian on the schedule, if they wanted to do a rotating schedule with St. Joe, cool.  You need a rest game, so if the South Bend schools want to do a three year rotation.  That would be nice to see. 

that is 5 games each year.   

Teams I would find interesting to start home and homes with:

Northwood

Merrillville

Ben Davis

Carmel

Lafayette Jeff

Carroll

Snider 

Westfield

HSE

Brownsburg

WOW never would have thought about that, since that what Penn has done since the 80s with these teams.  

On 4/21/2023 at 4:55 PM, HoopsCoach said:

In my post on the topic of Harrison and McCutcheon being booted from the NCC, I proposed a plan to expand that conference and include a blend of the current members with some slightly smaller schools within the NCC footprint.  I’m applying that same thought to the NIC and NLC, which would be to combine them and split into 2 regions (East and West), each with two divisions (Large and Small).   Something like this, with enrollments from the fall 2022 count day included.

East Region, Large Division (EL):

Elkhart 3302

Goshen 1981

Concord 1775

Northridge 1389

East Region, Small Division (ES):

Plymouth 1076

Northwood 917

Wawasee 906

Mishawaka Marian 698

West Region, Large Division (WL):

Penn 3401

Warsaw 2096

South Bend Adams 1976

Mishawaka 1463

West Region, Small Division (WS):

South Bend Riley 992

South Bend Washington 834

South Bend Saint Joseph 819

New Prairie 978

In football, each school plays the 3 in their division, 2 from the other division of schools their size, and 1 from each of the 2 divisions of schools a different size.  That gives each school 7 conference games.  It also allows them to preserve some long-time rivalries and still play 2 non-conference games against opponents of their choice.  In basketball, each team plays everyone in their region (east/west) and the 4 schools from the opposite side of the conference who play in the same size-based division.  So using Penn as an example, this could be their football schedule, not necessarily in this order.

Valparaiso

Cathedral

Mishawaka (WL 1)

Warsaw (WL 2)

South Bend Adams (WL 3)

Elkhart (EL 1)

Northridge (EL 2)

Northwood (ES)

New Prairie (WS)

Elkhart could then have a schedule like this:

Hammond Morton

Lake Central

Concord (EL 1)

Goshen (EL 2)

Northridge (EL 3)

Penn (WL 1)

Warsaw (WL 2)

Mishawaka Marian (ES)

South Bend St. Joseph (WS)

This is just as unlikely to happen as my suggestion for the NCC.

Penn right now has the schedule the way they want it, no more than 5 conference games, so they can have more out of conference competition.  I like the idea, but I would love to see a team like Northwood from last year go up against Penn.  Penn now is not the team of the 90s or early 00s, Penn can get beat by these smaller schools now.  It is a far fall from what the program used to be.

On 4/21/2023 at 10:59 AM, US31 said:

Kicking Goshen out too?

I just didn't list them all.  

If Wawase left, Plymouth should go as well since their program is in such a free fall.

On 4/23/2023 at 8:41 AM, BTF said:

Penn's record over five years is 32-22 since wasting Carmel in 2017. Time for a change? What has this average level of play done to attendance? Do the Kingsmen still pack the house?

We don't travel as well as we used to, attendance comes and goes.  We had full stands to see us get murdered by Carroll (props to them on that).  I expect it to be packed at the Mishawaka game.  But, the conference games, struggle to even get students out.

Well, this will be another blood letting on the Penn schedule.  As a program we are a shell of what we used to be.  However, long this agreement is for, congrats of 2-4 easy wins for Carmel.

I think it is time for Penn and Elkhart to move on from the NIC.  Elkhart more than likely finds a home in the NLC and Penn either goes independent or Joins the Duneland.  Playing Riley and Washington again does nothing for the schedules of either team.  Washington and Riley do not want to play either school.  Good luck to Jimtown, Glenn and Bremen.  While Penn never saw you on the field it was nice having you all.

I know the NLC would never want this, but if Plymouth left and they kicked Wawasee to the curb, I think a conference of:

Mishawaka, Penn, Elkhart, Northridge, Concord, Northwood and Warsaw would be very fun schedule.