TIFootball

1 minute ago, Muda69 said:

But, but, according to some on this forum using Sagarin you could have a tournament where a school of 300 has to play a school of 3000.  Is that fair?

 

lol - Saragin Ratings is a first look - not a final decider.

I will say this = Do I think a 3a Brownstown Central team could beat a 5a (use to be 6a) Jeffersonville team - ABSOLUTELY!

4 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

This is what Illinois does - somewhat.  They determine the 256 playoff schools then determine classes AFTER dividing the 256 schools by enrollment (or multiplier enrollment) into top 32, next 32, etc. until they have 8 classes of 32.

It could make things interesting for schools like Andrean or Southridge who have teetered on that 2A/3A enrollment line.  Illinois states that even if a team is ranked in a 5A or 6A poll throughout the year, they may be classed into a different tournament after the playoff qualifiers are determined. 

I found the Saragin Ratings a decent look at how teams would split out - sure there are some outliers but I think the formula could be improved upon.

8 minutes ago, MarshallCounty said:

When would you divide them up? Prior to the season, mid season, post season?

Think of it like the NCAA Basketball tourney selection - which region, even which tournament NCAA or NIT … I just think this would bring more balance to the tournaments, and much less 70-0 games. Team want to recruit - knock yourself out. The drive and competition is still there to make the "show" (6a tourney), but for programs rebuilding or going the wrong direction, can still be somewhat competitive in tourney play which i think can help lessor programs build.

5 minutes ago, MarshallCounty said:

When would you divide them up? Prior to the season, mid season, post season?

Week 9 would be my thought - let the conference schedules play out - so post season.

4 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Amen! 

1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Yeaaaaah, they can, but transfers=$.

When this law was passed by the legislature, several schools publicly announced they would not accept transfers, Carmel was one of those schools. Schools like Carmel could probably afford that. I mean seriously if 10 kids transfer in, what's another 60K really going to matter to their coffers. Seymour also opted for the same policy, which wasn't the smartest thing they've ever done. At the time, Seymour was loosing athletes to Brownstown and Trinity Lutheran. Kids were leaving and paying tuition to go to school elsewhere. As vouchers came along a some of P/P schools opted not to accept vouchers, they feared it would leave them forced with abiding by the same rules publics had to abide by. All of that has since changed, school systems are after every nickel they can get. Several years back Brownstown put a billboard right in front of Seymour High School advertising "Free Tuition". It has become a numbers game, and schools want every kid they can get because it means more money. So honestly I get a chuckle every time I hear "well they can recruit", EVERY school in the state recruits. 

Exactly my point - it's not about crying about schools recruiting, it about having the end goal reward system, i.e. the tournaments, based on outdated metrics. If schools recruit athletes away from other schools, then let the system take care of who plays where. Rank all teams and divide them up on some form power rankings.

Class (6a-1a) or enrollment. Either way works. I used class as this is how the Saragin Ratings are displayed. The selection process could still use SF as a component.

Enrollment - I think with open enrollment and other reasons I wont mention here for sake of getting flamed, is a dead metric to use. 

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 1:39 PM, foxbat said:

That's why Success Factor makes more sense than a multiplier.  It would apply to all schools evenly, not by the privateness or limits of their enrollment, but by the content of their talent.  The biggest issue with Success Factor is not that there's a "bouncing," but that the length is too short so the bouncing is more pronounced.  The way the Success Factor runs now, it's more of an issue that tends to catch schools with a talented class more often than a program that's actually got an advantage or has had a more holistic program growth in competitiveness.  If you go back and look at the IFCA's suggestion, a four-year window ends up with much less bouncing and much less of an issue to impact a school based on a great class.  Frankly, I'd like to see the Success Factor, since the idea is really behind "leveling playing fields" also have a "Failure Factor" component to it too.  If a 2A school, regardless of public/private, can be said to really be 3A in competitive level by the Success Factor, isn't it actually realistic that a 4A school could really be 3A in terms of competitiveness too?  Of course, that's not going to happen because no one wants to be tagged/recognized as being relegated/demoted.

I totally agree with this. I think having a statewide ranking system would be a better fit. Rank all teams, regardless of class 1-317 (or whatever that number is) and divide them up into 6 tourney's. Just for fun, I used the Saragin Ratings (which would need to be improved) and the results were very interesting. Keep the tourney sizes the same as they are now: 6A 32 teams, 5A 34 teams, 4A 61 teams, 3A 64 teams, 2A 63 teams, and 1A 63 teams. The breakdown was a much more competitive route than either M or SF.

In regards to open enrollment, kids are being recruited as early as middle school - especially from the elite middle school teams such as Team Indiana, Indiana Select, FBU Indiana etc. I know Cathedral recruiting was extended to personal invites for these teams to check out the campus and speak with coaches. East Central draws players from Cincinnati. Players from Indy gravitate to Warren Central that's outside their "district". Additionally down south, Columbus schools pull from area schools as they are the power schools in this region. ISHAA will never stop this practice, and open enrollment will always pull serious kids to these power programs which further divides the balance. I see this ranking system, or something like it, the only real way to balance the tourney's.

1 hour ago, Frozen Tundra said:

I don't know about you guys but, if we're not going to give the regular season any merit come tourney time (qualification system, seeding, better teams get home field, etc.), I'm not a fan of having a team play at the same school twice in a season. We've already seen BNL at Floyd Central. Why can't we get Floyd Central at BNL? All three of East's sectional games last year were just repeats of the regular season: vs Seymour, at New Albany, at BNL. I mean, it's not really a huge deal in the grand scheme of things but it would just be nice if we could go home/away on repeat match-ups.

I'm looking at the power schools all up and down the classes - it seems the legacy system works to a point, but why not just throw all teams in a ranking system 1 -325 or whatever, then divide them up into the 6 tourneys? Week 9 is the cut and use something similar to the Sagarin Ratings (but better).  New Pal is arguably the best team in the state regardless of class some say, and East Central is usually a top 5 team that can play with a lot of 6a schools, and some of the lower tier 6a should be playing in the class 5 tourney. Evansville Memorial who recruits is a Power 3a that could compete with a lot of 6a and Brownstown can compete well with 4a or even 5a schools. Madison may drop to a 3a tourney ...so on and so on. If were talking legacy, make it a full 100% ranking system with legacy build in the formula instead of waiting years to move ...

What do you guys think about it? I think it would make for more competitive games and face teams we wouldn't normally face.

49 minutes ago, starbacker said:

I’d settle for that compromise.

BNL is traveling to Jeff this week, then the bye week and then back to Floyd. 

You have to play the hand you are dealt but that drive 😬

I agree - BNL a better regional fit for New Pal sectional :)

1 hour ago, starbacker said:

You bet officials who drive in from Salem or Greenwood are dead set on throwing a high school football game. 

Maybe it’s age but I’m glad I don’t get worked up about officials as much as I used to. Do officials miss calls? Absolutely, do they intentionally screw a team on a Friday night I don’t buy it whatsoever.  I’m tired on a Friday night after working all week. These officials work 50+ hours a week at their real jobs and then come out on Friday nights because they love the game. 
 

I do agree that the sectional is wide open I believe any of the 4 teams could win it. Outside of Wenker Floyd doesn’t have anything that BNL, Jeff of NA can’t match up against. 
 

It also seems that the young NA team is improving each week as they gain experience and BNL is slowly getting healthy and showing some continuity on offense minus the few kids that are out for the season. 
 

I think any of the 4 could win the sectional and Floyd should be the favorite. 

Say what you will, but after 3 trips to BNL personally, it seems to be the same every time. I don’t believe anything’s intentional- but every critical call going for the home team seems consistent there. Coincidence, every time- yea I guess that’s possible. Don’t see it anywhere but BNL.

No dog in this fight, but I wouldn’t sleep on Jeff or NA come sectional time. Floyd seems the most solid team and BNL hasn’t really showed anything special- consistent from coaching- but nothing that tells me they should be. Sectional champion contender.

we all know it’s tough to beat BNL at home as the stripes always seem to be one sided there. Last time I was there - Seymour won but only after the officials threw bogus flags on every 4th down BNL play and clock keeper added time 3 times on the final drive as BNL was marching for the win only to throw an interception at the goal line. Ref’s were escorted off. Seems to be that way every time we play there.

Seymour-  line play seems to be going the wrong direction. Getting out athleted every week. It only gets worse from here with CE, Floyd, and then a powerhouse sectional.

We’ll see how much fight they put up the next 3 weeks.

Brownstown 14-7 over Seymour at half

Seymour looks bad. 

1 hour ago, starbacker said:

1 hour ago, Frozen Tundra said:

BNL players hopefully believes after last night that they can compete for and win the Sectional which they can.  This is a team that has been severely affected by injuries and took some shots again last night injury wise.  As I've said in this forum the only problem has been heart and effort.  Outside of Gaddis there is no other team in the HHC that has a better coach and if the locals can stay on course this year and next year in 2 years and going forward BNL will have gotten to where they need to be to compete year in and year out in 5A.

I think this is spot on. BNL JV and Freshman have athletes coming up - They should be fun to watch.

Gratz to BNL on a consistent performance- 

Seymour deserved to lose this game. Uninspired 1st half and too many needless turnovers. BNL will only get better.

BNL 10-0 over Seymour at half.

BNL basic but consistent

Seymour uninspired play- offense asleep and defense porous. 

10 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

East tried to move to the Mid-State Conference but the MSC chose Perry Meridian to be the eighth member instead. Conference Indiana tried to get East to join but the drive to Terre Haute wasn't economical for them and the conference seems to lack stability.

East has done the best they can with scheduling given their situation. Columbus North is a quality opponent and can't be dropped regardless because of the rivalry. Greenwood was the season opener from 1997-2011. They used to be a quality opponent but really fell off when Rick Wimmer left after 2005. Bloomington North replaced them from 2012-2017 and was supposed to be a step up but they only ended up having one winning season during that span. Whiteland has been the season opener since last year and that's definitely no easy task, especially with the offensive scheme they run. Pickerington Central, one of the top Ohio programs, was brought in for week 3 this year. The consolidated Elkhart High School will be the week 3 opponent next year. So the schedule has definitely picked up in the non-conference portion.

If schedule-strength made a difference anyway then somebody forgot to tell East. 2004-2018 produced ten semi-state appearances, three state championship appearances, and two state titles. The jump up to 5A in 2015 didn't make a difference. Some big name programs fell to East in that 15 year time-frame despite having played much tougher schedules. Normally, I'd agree that a tough schedule sharpens a team and helps them improve by learning their weaknesses. However, if you have a great coach, you're going to improve and be ready for any challenge at your door. Just ask New Palestine. I agree that 6A is a different beast entirely but would a tougher conference affiliation really make a difference? No team outside of the big four in the MIC has won a 6A state title since that classification began in 2013. If you go back to the pre-6A days, Fishers is the only non-big 4 MIC team to have won a state title at the highest level this millennium. 

East definitely has done they best they can given their schedule - and is THE premier team in southern Indiana - no question. I think the additions to the non conference schedule East has made is top notch. With that being said - i just think a tougher conference would help East against the big boys.

Maybe a different angle - and probably somewhat taboo - but what about athletes that leave other HHC schools for bigger better programs? I know it's a battle every year keeping what we have in Seymour between middle school and high school years - transferring to Brownstown, Columbus schools etc. I remember when New Albany lost a great player to Saint X and Madison loosing to Columbus schools. I am genuinely curious as to how frequent this happens to other schools.

45 minutes ago, Impartial_Observer said:

BNL @ Seymour

Jeff @ FC

Madison @ JC

East @ NA

Anything? Anyone?  

BNL @ Seymour : Injuries mounting up on Defense for Seymour, but with Bedford down this year - should make for a good game. Seymour in a close one.

Jeff @ FC : Taking FC on this strictly by FC consistency. Jeff has athletes to compete and stop a fast back, but many go both ways for Jeff. I see FC running away late.

Madison @ JC : I like Madison in this game. Madison has the ability to cover and JC has no running game. Madison in a close one.

East @ NA : East - the class of the conference-  will not be challenged all year in conference play.

5 hours ago, Fkfootball said:

They need to replace JC and Madison with Silver Creek and Charlestown. Both of those schools can compete in the HHC in every sport. Neither team can beat East in football obviously but they can pull their weight against the other teams. Silver Creek is extremely good athletically. They would add a lot to the HHC in many sports.

In my opinion, I would agree with SC, but I would replace Charlestown with Brownstown. Brownstown is the better school year after year.

I honestly think CE does themselves a dis-service staying in the HHC (Specifically football) - I think their poor schedule strength negatively impacts them in 6a tourney play. There is no challenge - for what - 15 years?? Tell me how this is good for any program trying to be best in state. I think Brownstown is in a similar boat - albeit a smaller scale. I just want to see competitiveness in sectionals and conference play.

End result - East move on to bigger better things - Bring in enough teams into HHC to split the conference. Now, back to reality ….

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 3:15 PM, Impartial_Observer said:

Seymour has some decent athletes in the 8th grade. I'm not sure how that translates into V wins in 3-4 years. Juniors and seniors are a long way from 7th and 8th graders, a lot of things change in those  years. I had SMS teams last week, and honestly I don't remember if they won, lost, or who they even played. 

Seymour's future looks very promising. Coach Kelly and staff have been getting more and more buy in in the offseason workouts and it's starting to show across all levels. All teams are undefeated (V, JV, Fresh, 8th, and 7th) through the "Littles" portion of the schedule (S. Dearborn - which has been impressive since week 1, Jeffersonville -non-conference game, Madison, and JC). MS has beaten Columbus and Floyd in both 7th and 8th.

I also like how each grade level is a bit different than the next in terms of team strength's which should meld nicely once the classes combine. I haven't seen this much optimism for overall program health in several years - possibly back to the Joe Goodman days.

Time will tell - but Seymour has some tools to work with.

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 6:24 AM, crimsonace1 said:

Here's the map so you can try to project the sectional fields: https://drive.google.com/open?id=153gxokpw917Ny2QyJyMozaPMxkCQOyQb&usp=sharing

Here's my very unscientific stab at it: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vXlagxgmD3_KwFJUNHTUeDtSd9ylMmsa&usp=sharing

I think it makes more sense to split the Bloomington schools up - send BN to Franklin C/New Pal/Whiteland. Then send BS to Evansville with BNL (I-69). Then move Seymour to Jeffersonville/NA/Floyd. I think that makes the most geographical sense as well as competition levels.