Raven67

59 minutes ago, Lemmy said:

There is no doubt about that, however my point would be if we can open up factories that employ 1000's of people, many of which aren't pictures of health, what is the justification to continue to keep schools closed?  Pre-existing conditions(immune deficiency, type-1 diabletes, etc...) would need to be excluded.  However if; factory workers, engineers, all trades, retail workers, waiter's and waitresses are all returning to work why can't teachers?   

This is my point. We are forcing taco bell workers to be essential.. i feel teachers are essential as well. Unless of course you have a serious underlying health condition. Or are over 60... kids are not dying from covid. Let them play, let them go to school.. let them have their mental health back. 

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

Of course we can. That’s the whole point. We’ve been protecting the whole population — one of the reasons the death rate is so far below some of the projections. The problem comes when you try to protect some of the population, while allowing the remainder to go unprotected and unfettered. If there’s any other way to actually accomplish that goal besides completely isolating the vulnerable population — and their caregivers — and their families/support systems — I have yet to hear it.

No winning with you..  typical offical..

24 minutes ago, Robert said:

Kids have a better chance of dying in a car crash up to today, from a virus that is not very old.  How old are cars and car crashes? I know teachers who have diabetes, asthma, obesity, in their 60s, hypertension...some with all of the above.  You're telling them to go back to work?

No, and if you would have read my post afterwards, you would see that I stated that they should not.. everyone seems to think I'm saying forget about this vifus and go back to full normal...I am not. There WILL be challenges in protecting the "at risk" community, but no more than the challenges that we are and have been facing... im the only one explaining any of this.. it seems everyone else is just saying "that won't work", "not possible". I keep asking you guys that disagree... WHAT IS YOUR ENDGAME? WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? A vaccine is not going to eradicate this. Even if it does work polls show 40 percent won't get it...what do you think we should do? 

2 hours ago, Bobref said:

And just how do you protect the vulnerable population while essentially allowing the virus free rein in the population at large? I asked in an earlier post that began this thread:   
“You’re going to essentially cut a sizable segment of the population off from anyone else. You do realize that 1 in 7 Americans is over 65? Add to that the other vulnerable people, like poorly-controlled diabetics, those with auto-immune diseases, the immune-suppressed, those receiving chemotherapy (650,000 every year), and you’re talking well over 15% of the population, i.e., more than 50 million people. I would like to hear someone explain the “protective measures” for these 50 million people that will allow the other 275 million to just go about their business as if nothing had ever happened. Maybe we should just relocate all these people to a single geographic area where we can more easily protect them? You know, like concentration camps, but with internet and cable TV.“

Still waiting for an answer.

If you dont think that we can have protective measures for 50 million people, then you obviously cant think we can protect the whole population correct? What you are asking is not a question with a right or wrong answer. You are looking for a debate, and I would love to give it to you. If this "lockdown" as you call it has done anything it has given us a lot of infrastructure for being secluded. You can now easily order all the necessities in your life and have them come to your doorstep. PPE is not in shortage anymore, so if you do have to go out as a person who is "at risk", you should be able to have a N95 mask and whatever else you need. Its honestly pretty simple. You are acting like we were ever truly locked down. Maybe you had a job that allowed you to stay home, but a lot of people did not, myself included. The FAST FOOD restaurant workers were even deemed "essential". The virus has been running its course, pretty full speed ahead. Nursing homes where I am at were overrun, some had a 100% infection rate, but social distancing has been declared successful. I call BS. Social distancing hasnt worked at all. over HALF of New Yorks hospitalizations were people who stayed home. We have done little to slow this down at all that has been successful, but still our numbers drop. Georgia has been open for over a month with no spike in numbers, proving that this has been running at full speed regardless of "lockdown" measures. Cases haven been rising at the same rate as numbers tested. Indiana has consistently been at 15-20 percent positive no matter how many people are tested. People are not dropping dead everywhere over this, especailly if you are under 60. 47% OF INDIANAS DEATHS HAVE COME FROM PEOPLE THAT WERE IN A NURSING HOME (876 PEOPLE)!!!!  Only 9.6% of Indianas deaths (177 people) have been people under 60. Only 4% have been under 50 (74). And only 2% under 40 (37). AND most of those deaths in the younger age groups have come from people with serious underlying conditions. We have the data, protect those at risk. The numbers arent lying. I dont understand why you think this is so much harder than trying to shut everyone down? So, it is that simple. If you are at risk, you continue to be able to be on unemployment. Teachers over 60..not this year. Serious health issue?.....not going back to work... keep staying in and do exactly what you are doing now. Stay vigilant with PPE and staying distanced. WHATS YOUR END GAME WHEN A VACCINE DOESNT WORK?

13 hours ago, Robert said:

I'm not a numbers wiz, just to put that out there, but I'm seeing all kinds of botched numbers everywhere...  The thing that isn't often pointed out is that the flu deaths are counted in one count, but the illnesses/deaths don't all come from the same virus.  So this COVID-19 (is is still one???) is blowing any one flu out of the water in its short existence.   

Correct, but we have done a terrible job at educating people with truth. TRUTH is that kids have a better chance of dying in a car crash. TRUTH is that this is not as deadly as once expected. There are many more.. the largest one majority of deaths has come from nursing homes. Some states at near 60 percent. We need to protect those people and all elderly. For those of you saying that is not possible, how is it possible in your mind to not be able to lockdown 15 percent of our population, but lockdown everyone? We have the numbers.. PROTECT THE POPULATION THAT IS DYING FROM THIS.

14 hours ago, dazed and confused said:

As far as your father goes, I thought considering his age, he is one of the lucky ones to survive... sorry if that offended you !  As far as the rest of your comments, thanks for clarifying what you think  !

But he is not lucky.. he is part of the majority.. thats not lucky, that is as expected.. if you add the antibody tests in covid has been just a a small fraction more deadly by percentage than the flu in 2018..      CDC just said this week that the Infection fatality rate of covid is .27...... so IF you catch it you have a .27% of dying.... and we are flipping out about what? https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/05/need-better-experts-cdc-admits-coronavirus-mortality-ratio-similar-1957-58-flu-pandemic-no-lockdown-needed/

20 minutes ago, dazed and confused said:

I think he is saying social distancing is working and although his father catched it he was one of the lucky ones, thank goodness !                                                          Everyone must keep in mind that stores new policy is No shoes, No shirt , No mask....NO SERVICE !!!

You are dazed and confused.. why does everyone think that people are dropping like flies from this virus.. they arent...WAKE UP. My dad did social distance, he didn't go anywhere for a month. I didn't even see him... boom infected. Social distancing hasn't worked. If that isn't obvious by now you are living in a cocoon. Georgia isn't flaring up and they have been open almost a month... the virus has and is running its course.. my dad wasn't one of the lucky ones. He was part of the LARGE majority that caught this and did fine with it. Its not the flu, its worse, no doubt. But it is not black death. Media would have you think people are just dropping dead everywhere and they are not. That's the bottom line. If you are "at risk" take precautions, but by all means don't act like this is killing everyone, because it's not. "One of the lucky ones" gimme a break

People above 80 account for 10% of our positive cases, but 50% of our deaths.. people under 50 Count for a whooping 3 percent of Indianas deaths.... of the 1716 deaths in Indiana 732 were from nursing homes... 91.3% of our deaths have been 60 and above 75.2% 70 and above... 1 percent of deaths is 40 and below.. everyone stop worrying. If you're not old with severe underlying issues you are not going to drop dead.. my dad is 73 with underlying issues.. he did fine.. I did fine. the most secluded people, that can't go anywhere because they are isolated in a nursing home account for almost half of Indianas' deaths..let that sink in..

The state did an antibody test on a control group before reopening as well as a virus test on same individuals. We have consistently been at 20 percent positive on nasal covid tests since the beginning. My guess is a LARGE majority had antibodies. Cases WILL go up with more testing.. that is a no brainer.. The highest counties have the highest amount of tests. Lake County and Marion County have tested more people by far, look at the numbers. Its consistently around 20% positive. The governor has said he will look at hospitalizations, which is the only TOTAL accurate number we have. There may be 2 million positive cases in state, but we are never going to know... All we can go off of is hospitalizations.

28 minutes ago, foxbat said:

A week ago you were citing a quote that no one in the US had seen what the UK saw.  While I appreciate that everyone wants to be positive, if we haven't learned anything from this episode is that the one thing that we can be sure of in the short-term is that there's little that we can be sure of. 

Kind of what someone else was posting just a little over two months ago in OOB about COVID in general.  Early in the process, before we knew; downplaying the potential.  A  post that didn't age very well as we are now over 70,000.  I honestly hope that you might be right and it doesn't go the same way ... forgive me though if I wait a while to see just where things may be headed before waiving it all off.

I'm not downplaying covid. In fact, I had Covid19. What we do know is that this was circling the earth even before the Chinese told anyone. France came out and said they had found covid in victims in early December. That was before Wuhan said anything. So as contagious as this appears to be there is no way that it wasn't here in the US then as well. We could be going through a second wave right now..  NO ONE KNOWS. That is the key thing here. UK reported like 30 kids.. now NY is saying they have 15...sooo the question is.. where has this "phenomena" been the last 5 months?

8 hours ago, foxbat said:

And in less than a week, it seems to have found its way here.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/05/health/nyc-children-hospitalized-inflammatory-coronavirus/index.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/05/dr-scott-gottlieb-kawasaki-disease-in-kids-may-have-coronavirus-link.html

 

15 kids in the whole city of New York? With this "pandemic" that New York had as the epicenter of death and horror....... only 15 kids got sick? 

1 hour ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

Not the same... not even close to the same as spring break. 

Because it's football season

26 minutes ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

This is just not this simple. What are you considering a majority? Like farmerfran said, 1-3A is going to be largely a no go for this. I'd bet that the bottom half of 4A would struggle with this too. Also, it is about the coaches too. If you offer both at the same time, you will also have coaches that have to choose which sport they will coach, and those choices at a lot of smaller schools will take the decision out of Timmy's hands.

Look this is not ideal for anyone.. What happened to adapt and survive, this is for the kids. There will be sacrifices made by all coaches, players, parents, and officials. but on the financial side of it.. as the article states above... it makes sense. And you mention it not being that simple, I have never said that it would be simple. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. They should be taking this time to make things work.. maybe less classes for a year, or give an option for participation and divide them up. There are hurdles, but they are not unachievable. With a little effort on some peoples parts, and some unorthodox thinking, it can and will work. 

12 minutes ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

I would be curious as to what percentage of schools in the state actually have a roster of 80+

I understand that some schools would have an issue, but majority of schools could fill a roster safely. I timmy plays baseball but wants to play football.. let him. Same the other way around. The only people that would have a problem with this are the over competitive adults and coaches that preach to kid that their sports is the "best". This is not a time to be like that. These kids are struggling with all of this, so why not let them play their sport when we come out of this. Just seems selfish to say it wouldn't be fair to baseball. I would be willing to bet that most schools would be able to field a football and baseball team, would some kids be getting playing time that normally wouldnt.. yep. But if thats what it takes to make a kid experience his senior year in sports. Im willing to go for it.

3 hours ago, psaboy said:

I'm hearing "strong" rumors that school will start with remote learning in August. Maybe play the football season in spring?? China really messed up the whole world with this one. 

I've been preaching for spring football since the beginning, but there are people that think I was insane to think that. There is a lot of hurdles to jump through, but we could make it work. What's so wrong about making a kid decide between football and baseball.. it does not affect more than a handful of kids out of a team of 80. If we so no spring football because of baseball we would be ripping the majority of kids off.. play it in the spring if need be. Start in March.

E Learning is not sustainable for elementary kids. I have friends that have to elementary kids, but they are both still working. Babysitters are hard to come by, let alone ones that will do elearning. It'd be better to hold everyone back a year than to do elearning again.

1 hour ago, foxbat said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/serious-coronavirus-related-condition-may-114858433.html

FTA:

Doctors in the UK have reported a serious new coronavirus-related condition emerging in children, with growing numbers now requiring intensive care.

An "urgent alert" sent out to general practitioners in London in the last three weeks warns of "an apparent rise in the number of children of all ages presenting with a multisystem inflammatory state requiring intensive care" according to a report by the Health Service Journal.

The alert warned that "there is a growing concern that a [COVID-19] related inflammatory syndrome is emerging in children in the UK, or that there may be another, as yet unidentified, infectious pathogen associated with these cases."

A separate alert, sent out by the Paediatric Intensive Care Society, urges doctors to "please refer children presenting with these symptoms as a matter of urgency," according to the HSJ.

The condition has been found both among children who have tested positive for the coronavirus and those that have not.

The symptoms of the condition are "toxic shock syndrome and atypical Kawasaki Disease with blood parameters consistent with severe COVID-19 in children," as well as "Abdominal pain and gastrointestinal symptoms" and "cardiac inflammation."

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) has yet to see something similar in the United States, which has the greatest number of coronavirus infections and deaths."We are not aware of any reports of this phenomenon in the United States," Dr. Yvonne Maldonado, who chairs the academy's committee on infectious disease, said in an email, referring to a potential link between COVID-19 and Kawasaki-type symptoms.

Dr. Sean O’Leary, a paediatric infectious diseases expert at Children's Hospital Colorado who is part of that AAP committee, said his hospital has seen several cases of Kawasaki this year, but none in the more than 30 children admitted for COVID-19.

"Even if it is related, is a very rare complication," he said. "If it were more common, we'd already have a pretty good idea about it in the United States."

Here's the issue though some people have been social distancing, but I can tell that alot people are not. Look at Menards, Meijer. Most "essential" workers, down to the person working at Taco Bell have not social distanced other than not going out to eat. If these antibody test really do start to show 90 percent asymptomatic (opinion- which I believe they will) what is the end game. I personally say everyone where a mask and go back to school/work take hygiene precautions and isolate the vulnerable (nursing homes, at risk elderly) There would be no way to not spread it, unless we shut EVERYTHING  down. Even with reduced class size we would still be spreading.  Especially since you can't tell who is infected. A LARGE majority of the hospitalizations are people over 80 that are in bad shape. I'm not saying that there isn't others, and yes we all know or have heard of a perfectly healthy young person passing, but reality is that is far and few in between. The death statistics show it for Indiana population 6,800,000

Age.       Deaths
0-19: zero deaths
20-29: 1 death
30-39: 5 deaths
40-49: 18 deaths 
50-59: 49 deaths
60-69: 157 deaths
70-79: 231 deaths
80+: 354 deaths. 
Not to mention that now we are finding out its been here since January. People were just getting sent home with an inhaler being told it was an upper respiratory infection. So much will be figured out in the coming month. I personally had a serum test yesterday for the states study, so we will see. I'm really not trying to sound morbid or am I saying this isn't a big deal, but its just my opinion. Take precautions and ease back into things. The toll this will take on our economic standing in theis world is going to be unrebuildable, it will cause more deaths. Food chains are going to be broken. When you cant go to the store and get food what are we going to do?

1 minute ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

So let's run this scenario through; the IHSAA flips like Ohio's governing body has proposed, spring sports in the fall, fall in the spring.  Another wave of this hits in the fall, as some have projected it will, and schools are forced again to close as well as the cancellation of all sports to be played in the fall, which if we flip would be the traditional spring sports. So, in essence, traditional spring sports see a full two season loss of competition. That would be awful, but would we be okay with this versus the loss of a traditional fall sport season? Financially, many would say yes because football is a big revenue producer...

This is very speculative.. the idea is flopping for sports that don't have as many fans sitting in the bleachers, and are not "contact" based. The truth is going to eventually come out.. the media has everyone thinking that this virus is a nail in the coffin, its not. The stats are showing it. It just came out that 2 people died in Cali 3 weeks prior to what they thought was first death. They did an autopsy and the were positive. That means they caught this in mid Jan, neither had traveled. So what changed from January to March... media. These antibody test are going to let us understand so much more about this virus..

1 hour ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

At the expense of the bodies of those underclassmen going through essentially two seasons in 9 months?  Comparing it to this off season being shortened isn't applicable when you consider the total recovery time from last year to this year is still roughly the same, kids just can't be involved in "traditional" off-season conditioning.  Look, at the end of the day it's like Sophie's choice and I don't want to miss out on any time, but I would rather say let's postpone the start of the season to after labor day and cut a week or two off of the regular season to see if that gives us enough clearance for the powers that be rather than put the long term health of those underclassmen on the line.  

If they were to flip, I would want a schedule that is more along the lines of a 2 week "camp," a 5 week regular season, and then start the tournament.  Then, in the fall of 2021, something very similar, but maybe a bit more extended, say perhaps a 7 week regular season.  No, it's not full seasons.  No, coaches aren't going to like it, but I mean, if we're going to think "outside the box" it needs to be a little more than "let's just flip the fall and spring sport seasons."  Play a 9 week regular season, plus a tournament from March to May and then another 9 week regular season plus a tournament from late August to November?  That's at least 20 games in 9 months, 30 in 10 if you advance very far in the tournament.  That would have been a bit much for me in high school, and all I did was play football by the time I was an upperclassman.  It's all a nightmare regardless...

If it needs to be shortened then so be it.. shortened is better than nothing. I don't want to see anymore kids go through what this years winter and spring kids did. 

3 hours ago, Irishman said:

I am not a fan of the shift either. It literally leaves little time for an off season for the following year. 

Soo your saying that you would rather have a class of seniors NEVER get the chance to play rather than have one year of shortened off-season. Also we are not getting much of an off season this year...

I guess my question is.. what is everyone's  opinion on what we wait for to say ok, not just for football, but for everything. A vaccine is not a silver bullet, even the "experts" say that. Are we stuck like this for eternity? With antibody tests coming out, we are seeing a mortality rate of potentially .02. What do we wait for? Do we use PPE and carry on? 

44 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

I believe there is an immunity form what I have read...what is in doubt is how long.  The TIME article I read was a couple weeks old but the experts they interviewed thought 1 to 3  years....with younger folks having a more robust immune response therefore a longer period of immunity.

“If we’re putting all our hopes in a vaccine as being the answer, we’re in trouble,” Jason Schwartz, an assistant professor at Yale School of Public Health. 

CORONAVIRUS and Influenza are the same when it comes to the fact they both have a single strain of RNA. That will make the covid vaccine similar to flu one every year. They will have to shoot in the dark due to mutation. We need a treatment. With a treatment and antibodys we can combat this. We are already seeing with all these asymptomatic cases we potentially are at the same mortality rate as influenza .001-.002, it has just happened faster. Some Epidemiologists have said that this virus needs to run its course, and that it will by the time we would have a vaccine anyway.

2 hours ago, Titan32 said:

This is a great question that really goes to the larger issue which is Trojan Dad's point.  This isn't the flu...so every time a kid tests positive in the building there will be contact tracing.  Then I suspect ALL of the kids contacted will have to go home and self quarantine for 2 weeks?  Seems like in high school buildings and on football teams there is a LOT of "contact".  Feels like this is going to be very difficult to manage to me.  Or...do some of you just think since it doesn't tend to affect young people as badly that there won't be contact tracing for this age group and fully expect asymptomatic kids to be all over the place anyway?  Or...by August do we not care because enough people have had it that the health care system won't be over run?

The new developments with the asymptomatic percentages are STAGGERING. I keep saying it. We really are not social distancing. Stores are open, look at the streets. This thing has run rampant undetected. India is saying 80 percent of all cases are asymptomatic. LA County now estimates that close to 500,000 have had it in their county alone. They originally on had 7900 positive. Ohio prison that only had 50 people with symptoms tested everyone 73% of 2400 were positive. This is a game changer. We have not slowed anything down. My guess is it will run its course faster than thought. Very interesting data.

3 minutes ago, Bobref said:

 or until we had an effective, readily deliverable treatment that keeps people off ventilators and out of ICUs. 

THIS is what I have been saying for awhile. I honestly think we will have something sooner than later... as far as large gathers, meijer is one everyday.