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BendNotBreak

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    North Vermillion @ Indianapolis Lutheran

    in The Indiana High School Football Forum

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Donnie Baker said:

    Couple of questions.

    Besides you and Tankas, who named the Woofs the best offense in the state?

    Second and foremost you really think NV is more battle tested with those 3 games than Lutherans and their schedule?

    Both aren't all that great.... in the 200s ....according to Sag... sched strength isn't the end all b all anyway.... as Southwood can attest too......

    • Like 1

    Sorry 3A Teams...

    in The Indiana High School Football Forum

    Posted

    On 11/11/2019 at 3:56 PM, George Orwell 2 said:

    Here a post I made about 4 or 5 years ago.  

    "I must say there have been a lot of intelligent statements made in this thread and for the most part I am impressed by the civility of the discussion.  Although the old public-p/p discussions (pre-Success Factor), were much more entertaining.  The difficulty in this debate is that the inherent advantages of private schools simply cannot easily be separated from the earned advantages of certain private schools.  Everyone recognizes that there are certain inherent advantages but everyone also recognizes that there are earned advantages that certain schools (many, but not all, private) have attained.   

    Contrary to many views expressed on the forum, there aren’t one or two or even a few specific variables that one can point to which lead to long term, significant football success.  The fact is that the variables involved are so numerous and so complex that it is nearly impossible to identify all of them or to determine how much each lend to the success of the program.  In addition, some variables may lend more to the success of certain programs and other variables may lend more to the success of others.  Also, some variables are inherent in a community and others are developed over time. 

    The attribute which has the most direct correlation with football success is enrollment size.  The size of the school has a stronger correlation with having a better football team than any other variable.  If you use Sagarin rankings as the measure of quality, larger schools, on average, are consistently ranked higher than smaller schools.  As we all know, although size matters, it isn’t necessarily the determining factor.  In fact, there are numerous variables which seem to have a correlation to football success but are not absolute determining factors.  How about simply being a private school? On the other hand, there are many private schools that are not very good at football at all.  What about being located in a densely populated area?  Once again, lots of schools located in densely populated areas aren’t very good.  The opposite is also true.  There are some very good rural programs.   Being Catholic versus other religious schools versus completely secular private high schools?  Same thing.  Some Catholic schools are good, some are not, some non-Catholic private schools are good, some are not.  There also seems to be consensus that average household income has some effect on success.  I don’t know if there are any studies on this but I question the significance of this variable.  My suspicion is that at some income levels the difference isn’t very significant.  For instance, the difference in the success effect between enrollment populations with very low average incomes as compared to slightly above average incomes is probably much greater than the difference between enrollment populations with average incomes versus above average incomes.  In fact, there is probably a point at which increasing income levels decreases football success as very high income households may dissuade their children from football participation.

    Of course all of this begs the question as to why certain schools have achieved a level of dominance over the others?  I have read some posts which insist that the Catholic schools (or more correctly, the Catholic schools which are dominant) have better players than their private school counterparts.   For the sake of argument, let’s assume that that is true (at least at game time).  In fact, let’s assume that this is true of all schools which have experienced significant football success regardless of whether they are public or private.  Why is it that the athletes on the field would be better at one school of similar size than another?  The obvious answers are 1) a higher percentage of the population desires to play, 2) they start playing earlier, 3) they receive good instruction from a young age, and 4) the players develop a team oriented identity from an early age. 

    When you get down to it, football (all sports really) is a math game.  The more students a school has to choose from, the more quality athletes will be in the pool.  Why does the German national soccer team beat the US national team every time they play?  The German national team has better players than the US national team.  Why?  The German national team has the 25 best athletes in the country on the team.  They started playing at a very young age.  They received good instruction from an early age, they developed a team oriented identity when they were very young, and they devoted themselves to soccer success.  The US national team doesn’t have the country’s best athletes on the team.  There are some very good athletes on the team; some that may be the top athletes in the country.  But not all of the best athletes in the US play soccer, nor do they get the same level of instruction as German youth players, etc.   

                    So the first, and probably most important variable, is that every one of the good athletes in the community must have a strong desire to play football from an early age and to devote themselves to the success of their team.  Understand that this variable isn’t inherent in a Catholic school, a public school, a city school, a country school, a rich school, or a poor school.  This is a variable that is a by-product of the identity of the community. 

                    Certain communities value football participation (and by extension, success) more than others.  The Indianapolis Catholic community (of course, there are others but this is the one of which I am most familiar) has taken great pride in their football success for generations.  Football was a sport that lent itself to the blue collar, mostly immigrant, and less sophisticated Catholic communities in the early part of the 20th century.  At the time, football was a poor man’s sport.  It was tough and violent and there were a lot of serious injuries.  The type of activity that poor, uneducated immigrant kids and young adults would not be dissuaded from.  It just so happened that there were a lot of poor Catholic kids in Indianapolis at that time and a great many of them starting playing football.  That developed into football success and a certain pride what went with it.  In a community that had no other way to favorably compare themselves to the majority, athletic success, especially in football, became part of its identity.  The resulting pride in that success was passed down from generation to generation.  It became part of the culture of Catholic school education.  

    Now, this history isn’t unique to the Catholic community.  There are other communities throughout the state, which are not necessarily Catholic, which have developed a “football culture.”  The fact, though, is that it takes generations (not years or even decades but generations) to develop the type of football culture that leads to dominance at the high school level.   But it is this “football culture” that most strongly drives the success of the community’s football programs. 

    The result is that when teams like Bishop Chatard, Roncalli, Cathedral, Andrean, LCC, etc. take the field, the 50 or 60 best athletes in the school are on the football team.  Not only that, but they have been preparing to play for the high school team for years before they even get there.  Most of the kids have played together for eight to ten years by the time they are seniors.  From the time they are in the 3rd grade, the value of football success starts to be positively reinforced by the entire community.  What position do you play?  Did you win this weekend?  Congratulations on your city championship.  Subtle interactions like this with the adults in the community constantly reinforce the importance of football success.  (This isn’t to say that other things are not reinforced; academics, charity work, appropriate behavior, and participation in the church and school are all reinforced as well.  But when it comes to athletics, football is important in the Catholic community.  It’s just the way it is.)

    That isn’t true for all schools where other sports such as basketball, soccer, baseball, etc. may draw athletes away from football.  That also isn’t true of schools where the community isn’t athletics focused or in communities where the students are expected to work at home or have other responsibilities.   The football culture is the single largest advantage that any school can have (excluding enrollment).  But there isn’t one variable that one can point to which defines it.  Some of the variables are inherent and some are earned.  But it is impossible to separate the variables that give one community a strong football culture and others not.   

    Now, in my opinion, the most important manifestation of this culture is a very strong youth program.  The most direct relationship for success is the quality of the youth program in the community.  One can look at non-Catholic schools who are similar in size and circumstances to see the difference in success based on the quality of youth programs.  There is a reason that Indpls. North Central is consistently inferior to Warren Central.  Warren’s youth program is very good.  North Central’s is not.  I would bet that there are very few successful programs who do not have a well developed youth program.   

                    Another aspect of football, in general, that is very difficult to explain but is probably inherent in football success is that, for some reason, football lends itself to dominance by small groups.  Look at past champions of NCAA Div II, Div III, NAIA, and even Division I to a lesser extent.  A small group of schools, usually around 10% – 20% win a significant majority of the championships.  This aspect of football seems to be inherent in the sport. 

    What we will inevitably find is that the variables which lead to football success are many, varied, and non-linear.  Ultimately, the “system” which creates the success is extraordinarily complicated; much too complicated to accurately model.  Nassim Taleb, in his work, The Black Swan, spends considerable effort discussing the attempts by people (mostly economists) to model systems which are extremely complicated and are ultimately based on human behavior.  The one thing all of the models have in common is that they inevitably fail (see e.g.: financial crisis 2008).  I believe that Mr. Taleb would probably say that this system is simply too complex to attempt to model.  

                    I can certainly see why the IHSAA would want to avoid the difficult discussions involved in attempting to parse out which variables should be used, and to what extent, to determine class realignment.  So, what we are left with is the success factor system.  All of the difficult variables (the causes) are eliminated and it is only the end result, regardless of how it is achieved, that is used to realign the classes.  Is it an honor or a punishment?  The beauty of that is in the eye of the beholder.  I think that the Success Factor with a few tweaks can resolve most of the issues.  For instance, I’d like to see 4 year cycles instead of 2 and fewer points needed to stay in a higher class.  But, this is a system that will work much better and more fairly than multipliers, automatic bumps, or a separate tournament. 

    Finally, it is important to remember that we are dealing with very small sample sizes.  The current class system has only been in place for just over 30 years.  There were periods of time where public schools had much more success than they are having now.  Over the next 30 years, some programs will improve over that time and some will decline.  The cultures of communities change over time, populations shift, incomes are redistributed, and priorities change.  In a generation, there could be a completely different discussion which dominates this forum, such as why the participation in football has diminished to the point where football is nearly irrelevant.  I fear that that is our greater enemy.  As we argue with one another over the thing we enjoy so much, it is disintegrating around us."

     Being the 4th gen of one of the 1st Itallian immigrant's  to Evansville ...in the mid 1800s, I'm sure I have multitudes of relatives still there today. I found a good article on ....History of Italians in Evansville... that confirmed my genealogy to that locale.  However, your description dose not fit with my family history...tho it may for others... My GGF left his 2 bros in Evansville ....to a certain town that is a member of the EIAC. My family history tells me that EDU was highly valued among these immigrant families. Many great sacrifices were made to ensure they got one. Perhaps your description is more applicable to the larger cities of the day ...such as New York, Chicago than Indy or Evansville..... On the flip side...I've traced my father's side back way before the Revolution... it has given me an interesting perspective on things..... thanks for such a well thout out and interesting read.....

    Heritage Hills 12-0 at Lawrenceburg 11-1

    in The Indiana High School Football Forum

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Lysander said:

    Every other year in HS football, I would be on the field in Greyhound green and white to receive a Tiger butt-kicking.

    Even so, it’s a special place.  Dick Meador was prowling the sidelines then rather than being the namesake.

    Two great traditions playing at a classic venue.this weekend.

    Saturday, huh?  I may have to ask my better half permission to attend. 

    She used to be on the sidelines back in those days, as well, in her green and white Greyhound cheerleader uniform.

    Back in the Jurassic era.

     

    Yeah..... that Dick Meador Tiger Team we played was the hardest hitting team we played..... period..... and that says alot..... 3 spinal fusions now.. and counting... can testify to that sched...... didnt help that we a team of flyweights...... lol

    • Like 2

    Hoosier Conference 2019

    in The Indiana High School Football Forum

    Posted

    What he said..... this team can get ther... but not in the fashion u've seen other Lcc teams do it.... they will hav to scratch an claw ther way ther...... can they make that one key block to spring the corner?  A tandem backfield? Maybe.... or like u said... use motion to crack down and spring it..... I think they r at the point wher the sched has prepared them well... but they r gonna have to game plan an execute it better to get ther.... I'd like to c if the O can mix it up and grind down NJ ...3.5 yrds a play would b jus fine..... till it's time not too.....

    Hoosier Conference 2019

    in The Indiana High School Football Forum

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Donnie Baker said:

    What exactly is LCC on the outside of? The win over Rennsy showed 1A they were a favorite in the North. I still say LCC and Lutherans for the 1A title, swear to God I do 

    Sag now has LCC where I thout they should b.... 3rd.... outside looking in... should they take care of biz this week at hm... they will hit the road to SA.... SA is the clear fav in the north.... their O can come at u many diff ways.... a solid run game and an impressive passing attack... to go with that.. they have a highly aggressive D .... Monroe Central put in some twists to try an take advantage of that.... just wasn't enuff... that said .... I think if someone can knock them off .... its LCC..... can the Knight D slow them down? And can LCCs O put up enuff pts against that starfire D?  A game like that... comes down to ... Big plays.... who is more likly to make em? Who is better suited to limit them?  I give the edge to SA.... but the vaunted INTANGIBLES..... I give to Lcc......  😏

    Hoosier Conference 2019

    in The Indiana High School Football Forum

    Posted

    51 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

    Congrats Cass and LCC 

    Turnovers and not getting off field in some key downs did us in 

    Spotted 13 points first 1:26 of game 

     

    Had 31 1st downs.   519 of offense 443 on the ground.   Just couldn't get over the hump 

    I respect the fact ....that despite the set.backs.... the Bombers didnt go quietly into the night...... ooooh  ra... ooooooh ra.... soooooo ra...... yaaaay!!!

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